They really don't get it...

brewmama

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The point that a business can fire people for whatever reason they like? You don't like it, I'd support a law that gives people more protection from being fired for their political views outside the office, but it's conservatives that love "at-will" more than liberals.

No, the point was that the government can sit back and allow intolerance and political correctness to move society in the way they want it (secular.) So what is the difference?

You can be fired for promoting a law protecting marriage, and run or fined out of business for refusing to make a gay wedding cake or participate in a gay pride parade. Is this a tolerant society protecting free speech?

I don't want to get into a protracted argument over this. How about we revisit it in 5 years?
 
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LoAmmi

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No, the point was that the government can sit back and allow intolerance and political correctness to move society in the way they want it (secular.) So what is the difference?

You can be fired for promoting a law protecting marriage, and run or fined out of business for refusing to make a gay wedding cake or participate in a gay pride parade. Is this a tolerant society protecting free speech?
Nobody ever had protection from being fired for putting forth any political views. To pretend that it was other ways is revising history to suit your current political argument. That'd dishonest, in my opinion.
 
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Wolseley

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I mean, we were all told gay marriage would destroy existing marriages. My parents still seem to be relatively happily married, even though gay marriage was legalized in my state a while back. In fact, I don't know of any married heterosexual couple that spontaneously divorced because gays started marrying. :)

Issuing "marriage" certificates to homosexuals who decide to play house together won't make heterosexual marriages crumble and fail; nobody believes that married heterosexual couples will suddenly start divorcing in droves because of "gay marriage".

Legitimizing the concept of homosexual "unions", however, will contribute to the further dissolution of legitimate marriages in the future; the institution will likely become more or less irrelevant, just as it has in Scandinavia (where legal homosexual partnerships have been registered since the 1970's). It's simply one more burden placed on an already overburdened institution, one that has been in trouble ever since marriage was taken away from the churches and turned over to the state by means of quickie no-fault divorce.

Will "gay marriage" cause currently-married heterosexuals to divorce? No.

Will "gay marriage" contribute to fewer heterosexual couples deciding to marry, either by religious union or secular ceremony, in the future? You bet your sweet bippy it will.

So, at the end of the trail, will "gay marriage" damage, or perhaps even destroy, so-called "straight marriage"? Yeah, I think that's a pretty solid prediction.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Will "gay marriage" contribute to fewer heterosexual couples deciding to marry, either by religious union or secular ceremony, in the future? You bet your sweet bippy it will.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Let's take two hypothetical examples of heterosexual couples considering marriage at opposite ends of the gay marriage divide. Couple 1 is very traditional and views marriage as the only proper context for sex. Couple 2 is less traditional and views marriage as completely optional commitment, and may be living together already in a martial like relationship, or considering doing so as an alternative to marriage.

Couple 1 seems like they almost have to marry no matter what because of their outlook on the situation. They may not like that gays can marry civilly, but that isn't likely to stop them from getting a sacramental marriage at their church that also conveys with it legal rights of a civil marriage. They feel it's necessary and the fact that gays are marrying in courthouses and churches that this couple does not approve of probably isn't going to make marriage seem less mandatory for them personally when they decide to live together, have sex, and build a life.

Now, Couple 2 probably already believes in gay marriage. They might or might not marry no matter what the law is on gay marriage, but I know some ministers in churches that believe in gay marriages had started to refuse to perform any weddings until gay marriages were legal in their state and they could perform weddings for any couple that asked, and I've heard of some heterosexual couples who were shacking up or whatever and refused to get married until gay people could get married also, out of solidarity with their gay friends. So, heterosexual Couple 2 might be *more* likely to marry now that gay marriage is legal in their state.

I'm having difficulty thinking of what the circumstances and logic would be of any hypothetical heterosexual couple refusing to get married when they otherwise would get married simply because the homosexual couple down the street can also get married. I could see them perhaps seeking out a church that won't marry gays if they disapprove of gay marriage, to draw a distinction between their marriage and what they don't believe to be legitimate marriages, but it's hard for me to imagine them not getting married at all.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here.
 
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pdudgeon

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ebia

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Will "gay marriage" cause currently-married heterosexuals to divorce? No.

Will "gay marriage" contribute to fewer heterosexual couples deciding to marry, either by religious union or secular ceremony, in the future? You bet your sweet bippy it will.
Given that it's already changed shape into something optional and non-permanent, so what?

The church hasn't always controlled the shape of marriage, but even if it had that battle is long since lost already.
 
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LoAmmi

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LoAmmi

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Will "gay marriage" contribute to fewer heterosexual couples deciding to marry, either by religious union or secular ceremony, in the future? You bet your sweet bippy it will.

I'm betting the fact that heterosexuals are divorcing so much contributes more to that than two homosexuals being married. The fact that so many people marry and divorce makes marriage frivolous. Two other people getting married? I'm sorry, I don't follow that line of logic.
 
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Fantine

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I would think that the desire of gays to get married would up its value in straight people's eyes--because they would discern that there are tax and other benefits to marriage.

I think it's more what the Time or Newsweek article I read a few years ago is true--marriage is a middle-class institution, so that the widespread inequality we are experiencing due to corporate greed and tax cuts for the wealthy are zapping marriage statistics.
 
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brewmama

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Given that it's already changed shape into something optional and non-permanent, so what?

The church hasn't always controlled the shape of marriage, but even if it had that battle is long since lost already.


We have already noted this, but you miss the point that society is based on marriage and the marital unit, (family), and as that weakens, so weakens society. This just pushes it further along, faster.
 
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brewmama

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I would think that the desire of gays to get married would up its value in straight people's eyes--because they would discern that there are tax and other benefits to marriage.

I think it's more what the Time or Newsweek article I read a few years ago is true--marriage is a middle-class institution, so that the widespread inequality we are experiencing due to corporate greed and tax cuts for the wealthy are zapping marriage statistics.

Everything about that is wrong, from marriage being a middle-class institution to the fantasy leftist ideology. You're always good for a chuckle!^_^
 
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LoAmmi

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Rich people don't get married?

Well, I'll be horn-swoggled. Who knew?

I do find that to be a bizarre concept. Marriage used to be more of a upper class institution because it was about blending families and keeping power. Poor people got married, sure, but it was important to the upper class to continue their family's power.
 
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Fantine

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"The loss of decent-paying jobs that a high-school-educated man or woman could get makes it difficult for them to get and stay married," says Cherlin. As the knowledge economy has overtaken the manufacturing economy, couples in which both partners' job opportunities are disappearing are doubly disadvantaged. So they wait to get married. But they don't wait to set up house.

All this might explain why there was a 13% increase in couples living together from 2009 to 2010. Census researchers were so surprised at the jump that they double-checked their data. Eventually they attributed the sharp increase to the recession: these newly formed couples were less likely to have jobs.

So, people are living together because they don't have enough money to live alone, but they aren't going to get married until they have enough money.
That's the catch. In fact, the less education and income people have, the Pew survey found, the more likely they are to say that to be ready for marriage, a spouse needs to be a provider.

But cohabitation among the economically blessed is a whole different ball game than it is among the struggling. For most college-educated couples, living together is like a warm-up run before the marital marathon. They work out a few of the kinks and do a bit of house-training and eventually get married and have kids. Those without a college degree, says Cherlin, tend to do it the other way around — move in together, have kids and then aim for the altar. And children, as Bristol Palin and Levi Johnston discovered, change everything.

Modern-Marriage Report: Not as Necessary Yet Still Desired - TIME

TIME Marriage Study: Four In Ten Say It's Obsolete

Is Marriage Obsolete? New Pew Research Survey Shows Changing Attitudes About Marriage and a Redefintion of Family - ABC News

You want documentation and serious studies? You got them.

Or maybe some would rather criticize the research and polls and blame it on gay people (which was not even mentioned as a reason for people not marrying in any of the studies).
 
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ebia

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We have already noted this, but you miss the point that society is based on marriage and the marital unit, (family), and as that weakens, so weakens society. This just pushes it further along, faster.
Not really. That horse has already bolted; trying to shut the stable door isn't going to achieve anything beyond your own sense of having done something.
 
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parousia70

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Even if it's not, your fine with Catholics being effectively either forced to encourage sin or be blacklisted from the service industry?

Does the Catholic run burger joint also "encourage sin" when they serve cheesburgers to homosexuals?
 
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brewmama

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Modern-Marriage Report: Not as Necessary Yet Still Desired - TIME

TIME Marriage Study: Four In Ten Say It's Obsolete

Is Marriage Obsolete? New Pew Research Survey Shows Changing Attitudes About Marriage and a Redefintion of Family - ABC News

You want documentation and serious studies? You got them.

Or maybe some would rather criticize the research and polls and blame it on gay people (which was not even mentioned as a reason for people not marrying in any of the studies).


Thanks for totally proving our point!
 
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Antigone

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I still think that if you want to protect marriage, you need to make divorce more difficult to obtain. It'll make people more likely to try hard. It's not the gays getting hitched that will make heterosexual marriages crumble, it's because people don't try or expect their partner to be perfect and will inevitably be disappointed.
 
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brewmama

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I still think that if you want to protect marriage, you need to make divorce more difficult to obtain. It'll make people more likely to try hard. It's not the gays getting hitched that will make heterosexual marriages crumble, it's because people don't try or expect their partner to be perfect and will inevitably be disappointed.

That's very true. I posted a link about how the church dropped the ball on this earlier.
 
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Wolseley

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Does the Catholic run burger joint also "encourage sin" when they serve cheesburgers to homosexuals?

If the burger joint owner/manager willingly and openly caters a "wedding" reception by delivering 500 cheeseburgers in rainbow boxes to the site with a sticker on each one saying "Congratulations, Hector and Percy!", then yes, I would say that the owner/manager is participating in a situation which is wrong, and by means of the messages, he is also encouraging the deviant and sinful behavior of the two homosexuals involved in the whole thing.

Burger joints usually don't run into this type of thing, where they are asked to deliberately violate their own faith by means of the products they offer; bakeries, florists, and hall rentals, regrettably, do.
 
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