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They Denied Him 3 Times

Discussion in 'OBOB General Politics Forum' started by eastcoast_bsc, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Chany

    Chany Uncertain Absurdist

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    I'm not discussing Israel's innocence, I'm saying that the other party involved is not just a bunch of poor victims.
     
  2. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Surely you must remember. Israel was the one attacked. And Jerusalem was the capital of Israel since Biblical times.

    And if we are going to play the game of winners aren't entitled to spoils of war--then what part of what country is going back to what people? Seems like every country was once someone else's property--until they lost it.
     
  3. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    Israel as a nation in Biblical times is not the same as Israel as it was established in modern times. Modern Israel was established by political actions, not by God, and those political actions did not give them all of Jerusalem.

    You might want to read up on just war doctrine as well.
     
  4. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    yeah, i was kind of shocked
    it is clear it did not pass with a 2/3 vote

    was the vote for both God and Jerusalem or were they seperate votes?
     
  5. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    yes, the Church rightly recognizes Herself as being the fullfilment of Israel, the People of God
    the Modern Zionest State is not Biblical Israel
    the land was taken by european christians and given to european jews
    the modern state of Israel is one of the last vestages of Colonialism
     
  6. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    I've really never ever seen this, but that may be a geographical issue. I think though that a lot of people who might be described as liberals just have serious issues with the way Israel has acted as a state. Yes bombing other nations and committing terror attacks is very bad and even evil. But there is something that seems very cold about systematically denying water to people who are not combatants at all - that kind of thing seems so dispassionately wrong it is very hard to sympathize with it.

    Which isn't to say that they are totally happy with the way the surrounding Arab nations have acted, but they aren't in some cases being led by democratic governments, and they aren't getting the support of the West in the same way Israel has. If you know your money is going to support a state you think is doing bad things, it gives you a little more reason to complain.

    It's an anecdotal story, but I had a boss who worked in Israel in the 70's during a rather tense period - he was military. A very nice, gentle man by nature. He went over being very pro-Israel, and when he came back his perspective had changed entirely. He was very upset at what he saw happening there not just by individuals but by the Israeli state. He wasn't an unrealistic or soft person either, he was an infanteer and pretty pragmatic.

    Of course I'm not obliged to see things the same way, but I do trust his impression that there was something wrong going on there.
     
  7. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    Yeah, hindsight is 20/20 of course, but it is hard to see how they thought it was going to turn out well. People at the time predicted this outcome.

    On the other hand, there were terrible things going on throughout this century to the Jewish people. I suppose it seemed like the best hope of a solution to many.
     
  8. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Except that some of those people are in fact people the people who *have* lived there since Biblical times--those who you would call "Palestinians". The ones who are now claiming to be "Palestinians" are actually Muslim "Syrians".

    When Britian gave up its colonial possession, part went to Israel and the other part was to go to the natives who were living in the territory. Of course, somehow Syria, Egypt, and Jordan annexed that land. (Funny, even though those countries have more than enough land, no one is asking them to give back the land they took.) And even though the people were invited to stay by Israel, the Muhftis convinced the people to leave so that they would be able to come back after Israel was wiped from the map. Many *did* stay and are now Israeli citizens with all the rights of an Israeli citizen. Those that went in hope that Israel would be destroyed, were treated badly by their fellow Muslims.

    You know that there probably could be peace tomorrow if the terrorists just would acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
     
  9. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Although there had been skirmishes between Israel and Palestine, the war started in this way:

    Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  10. Virgil the Roman

    Virgil the Roman Young Fogey; enquiring into Holy Orthodoxy . . .

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    Rather, You mean they stole the land, conquered more land, and then blasted the hell of out the Palestinian brothers of theirs --- all the while exclaiming that this land is theirs by Divine Right (even though the majority of Jews are descended from Jewish Khazar converts and something around 20-30% are actually even Jewish (the Sephardic), the Eastern European ones, are by and large, Jewish Khazars.

    And all the while, most real Jews opposed Zionism from the on-set; seeing it for the political ideology that it is.
     
  11. Virgil the Roman

    Virgil the Roman Young Fogey; enquiring into Holy Orthodoxy . . .

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    You are correct. Yet, not all Palestinian Moslems or Christians are bad. Many are stuck between a rock and hard place. And their lives are total crap between being stuck between an colonialistic Jewish Supremacist Israeli state and groups like Hamas and Fatah that play upon peoples' fears and miseries . . ..

    :smoke:
     
  12. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    The point is, that you seem to be evading the point. Bailiff.
     
  13. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    Jim, how did the post 1967 borders come about ? I will save you the time Jim.


    Israel launched a preemptive attack:

     
  14. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Your initial point, Eastcoast, was that Democrats booed God.

    I posted a video of the vote, which showed that "God" was combined with the issue of Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel.

    Because the West Bank was seized by Israel, the only nuclear power in the Middle East, with the most powerful nation in the world as its ally, and because the Palestinians in the West Bank are subjected daily to oppression and human rights violations, the Democrats had mixed feelings.

    Many Democrats were rightfully uncomfortable about a country setting up a capital on illegally seized land.

    And most Democrats believe that the Israelis would be safer if they just let their nuclear bomb be the deterrent, not their confrontational behavior.

    I would be willing to bet that Israel's militancy gives most political administrations as much agita as Ahmadinejad's nuclear dreams. I would also bet that, next to North Korea, Israel is second most likely in the world to launch a preemptive or unprovoked nuclear attack.
     
  15. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    Of course what's left out is Israeli's encroachment in the Golan Heights, and in Gaza, which made even Moshe Dayan respond that the lust for land by the Israeli's was frightening.

    The Israeli's lead the list in ignoring UN Security Resolutions;

    Study: Israel leads in ignoring Security Council resolutions



    Study: Israel leads in ignoring Security Council resolutions - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

    Yeah, it's for their defense. But the the Palestinian terrorist attacks are justified by them, in that it's for their defense.

    Only divine intervention will bring peace between the two sides. Mean while, the USA should do as Pat Buchanan said and as Obama was doing, our Middle East Policies should be based on what's good for the USA, period.




    Jim
     
  16. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Newbie

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    It's kinda of like how liberals don't think babies in the womb have a right to exist.
     
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