TheTwo Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Historical Gentile Church

[Criada]

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Stipulations:

1. Topic: TheTwo Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Historical Gentile Church
2. Affirmative: Barraco
   Opposing:James-49
3. Rounds: 5
   
4. Alternating rounds starting each with Barraco being the first post.for a total of 10 posts.
5. Time limit between posts: 1 week maximum, there is no minimum.
6. Maximum length for each post: Limited to 2000 words
   
7. Quotes and References are allowed; Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule.
8. No outside links, no videos.
   
9. Start Date: Wednesday 19th December 2012
   

Link to Peanut Gallery here: PEANUT GALLERY - Formal Debate - TheTwo Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Historical Gentile Church

 

[Barraco]

Thank you Criada for opening up this forum for debate. James, best of luck to you and may God be glorified in our discussion. May He shape our hearts to pursue the truth of His Gospel.

I want to open up the discussion in defense of the thread title: that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the Historical Gentile Church. Not only are they the historical Gentile Church, but they are many nations whose aim is to bring the Gospel to acceptance among the Jews and Jerusalem, thereby building the temple of God (the dwelling of God among His people) in Jerusalem.

To justify this claim, it will require that I lay some groundwork to do so:

A) Romans 11 defends the idea that there was a dispensation in which the Jews were temporarily blinded and the other nations (Gentiles) would receive the inheritance into the promises that God made to Israel. This dispensation would continue until the 'Fullness of the Gentiles' per Romans 11:25 had come.

B) This dispensation is called 'The Times of the Gentiles' and had begun when Jerusalem was destroyed. See Luke 21:20-24. This dispensation was alluded to many times by Jesus in the Gospel narratives. One of the many occasions was clearly demonstrated in Matthew 21:43-44 where Jesus tells the Pharisees and chief priests, "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."

C) The book of Revelation indicates a duel ministry of God's people that I will elaborate later on in this opening. Those ministries are to obey the commandments of God, which are the teachings of Jesus, and to keep the testimony of Jesus (despite the inconvenience of doing so.) An example of this would be Revelation 12:17, which reads: "Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus..."

Now, while I'm okay with debating all three issues, I want primarily to defend the idea that the two witnesses are the Gentile Church throughout history, starting from 70 CE and continuing until the Fullness of the Gentiles, as Paul put it, is reached.

Revelation 11 opens up with the measuring of the temple (sanctuary) of God, as if to state that the future temple will be rebuilt in the future. Now, this in itself is telling. The temple in Jerusalem, then called Herod's Temple, was to be destroyed. Most evidently, that meant that the Jewish Nation was to be destroyed and completely scattered, as verse 2 defends. But that there is something that I believe is often left out of these discussions because of lack of proper literary analysis: Revelation 11 is a continuation from chapter 10. In chapter 10, the sequence of the seven trumpets is broken to start a new prophecy. Taken from Ezekiel 3, the idea of eating a scroll and it tasting sweet as honey is in regard to Ezekiel being sent to his own people to preach to them. But it doesn't mention that it would feel bitter in his belly, contrary to Rev. 10:10. The reason why is made evident in Rev. 10:11. "...You must again prophecy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings." Thus, chapter 11 is in regards to the Gentiles, not the Jews. So we shouldn't be surprised when we see Revelation 11:2 show Jerusalem being given over to the Gentiles to be trampled underfoot. In line with groundwork A, the Two Witnesses are only commissioned after the city of Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles.

These two witnesses begin their prophecy dressed in sackcloth. Per Revelation 19:10, their prophecy is not one of visions or miracles, but rather one of testimony. "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Not surprisingly, Rev. 11:7 calls their prophecy 'their testimony.' So the two witnesses are testifying of Jesus. This goes back to Rev. 12:17, where the offspring of the woman keep the commandments of God and keep the testimony of Jesus. So the intent of the two witnesses, in regards to everything discussed from Rev. 10:9-11 and on, is that many peoples, nations, languages, and kings would testify of Jesus until their testimony is finished and the Fullness of Gentiles has been reached.

Taken from Zechariah 4's vision of the building of the second temple, these two witnesses are likened to two lampstands and two olive trees. Per Zechariah 4, the two olive branches that poured oil into the lampstand (temple) were Joshua the High Priest and Zerubabbel the governor. So the two olive trees are the families of priests and kings. Revelation 1:5-6 confirms this by saying, "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdoms (some versions say kings), priests to his God and Father..." This is confirmed again in Revelation 5:9-10. [i}"...for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." Again, see Rev. 20:6 for more confirmation.

The two lampstands are concerning the aspects of God's temple: Those that testify of Jesus with their lives, like the lampstand of Smyrna, and those that rule over their oppressors, like the lampstand Philadelphia was promised that those that called themselves Jews would come and bow down before them and know that God had blessed them. And in that aspect, the two-fold ministry of the Gentile Church throughout history is confirmed. Like Smyrna, the Gentile Church would be brutally persecuted by the Romans from 96 CE to 313 CE. Then, after the legalization of Christianity, the Christians would rule over many, teaching them to obey the teachings of Jesus.

And just as Romans 11:11 shows, Israel would stumble so that, "through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous." Through their blessings, Paul hoped that the Gentiles would lead the Jews to believe in Jesus. Paul excitedly showed in Romans 11:15 that if Israel's rejection means reconciliation of the world as Rev. 5:10 showed, their acceptance would mean life from the dead. Sure, Paul could be using a figurative of speech, but I don't think that he is. Revelation 11:7-13 shows the Gentile Christian nations being defeated in Jerusalem. Evidently, a conversion occurs there where the Jews receive their King. And what is the acceptance of Israel but the resurrection of the dead! In the sequence of events, Jerusalem sees the two witnesses resurrected and the entire city gives glory to God! From that point on, the seventh trumpet blasts and the announcement in heaven is made: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever."

Historically, the Gentile Church did withstand the oppression of the Roman Empire (the dragon of Rev. 12), even to the point of death like Smyrna did. And they ruled over their oppressors, both the Jews and the pagans, like was promised to Philadelphia (Rev. 3:9.) One day, their testimony will be finished and the Fullness of the Gentiles will come in, ending the Times of the Gentiles. This will usher in a time in which, as Romans 11:26 defends, "All of Israel will be saved. And where once the Gospel produced no fruit, the fig tree will blossum and give fruit. This is evident from Zechariah 12:10, where Judah and Jerusalem will receive a Spirit of grace and supplication, and they will look upon the One they pierced, mourning for Him as though they lost an only son. And in that day, as Zech. 13:1 shows, Judah and Jerusalem will be cleansed from all unrighteousness. And thus, the two witnesses evidently fulfill what Revelation 11:1 set out to do: Build the new temple that was measured.

According to the old order, priests were required to rinse themselves in the brazen bath before entering into the sanctuary. It is Jesus' blood that cleanses so that God's Spirit can make His dwelling place in each believer. This temple was one that included only the altar of incense (where prayers were offered), the sanctuary (where God's Spirit dwelled), and those worshiping there (the priests.) Paul made it clear in Ephesians 2:18-22 that the temple of God is not made of bricks and jewels, but rather one "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in The Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place (temple) for God by the Spirit." Thus, as Revelation 14:1 shows, the Jews and Jerusalem will enjoy the presence of Christ on Mount Zion (where the temple was built.)

All of this has been essential in showing that the dispensation called the Times of the Gentiles was to be a time in which the many nations testified of Jesus and ruled in His name in effort to bring the Jews to acceptance of the Gospel of Christ's kingdom so that 'All of Israel will be saved.' Since it is my first time ever debating, I hope that I have stated my case well and I look forward to your response. Best of luck to you James.

God bless

 

[James-49]

I also thank you Criada for your preparations and oversight of this debate. Barraco, I've seen enough of your posts to respect the level of understanding you already possess. My hope is that between the two of us we'll both come to a more perfect, and shared understanding.

My position holds that the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are actual individuals who were in operation prior to the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The Gentile church subsequent to that destruction and within the dispensation "Time of the Gentiles" were not the witnesses so much as they were those who believed the witnesses and elected a lifestyle that demonstrated that persuasion.

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Rev 11:3,4 (KJV)

G3144 martus (witness)
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record,
witness.
Strong's Concordance

witness
1. person who observes an event
2. testify; authenticate
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition

Though Strong's includes the analogy of martyr, witness is essentially "witness" - someone who actually saw an event and declares what
they saw.

The Gentile church that followed the destruction of the temple in 70AD up to today were not, for the most part, witness to the crucifixion of Jesus, and only were told of His death and ressurection. Our Gospel that we preach is only (though sadly not always) a repetition of what we were told - and what we were told is the recorded witness of the early church that was there when Jesus was crucified .. beyond any doubt dead. And were there to see Him alive again afterwards.

The Gospel is the good news that Christ is alive, which many of us have experienced in our faith - and it is also the good news of what Jesus accomplished through His death on the cross ... which we were not witness to, but were told about, and we repeat. The Gospel we believe is based on the testimony of witnesses.

POINT 1: The two witnesses of Revelation 11, by definition, had to be present during the time of Jesus's life, death and resurrection.

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"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
"And ye are witnesses of these things."
Luk 24:46-48 (KJV)

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses."
Act 2:29-32 (KJV)

There is demonstrated a distinction between "preached" and "witnesses", and demonstrated that witnesses are actual persons.

POINT 2: The two witnesses of Revelation 11 were real persons.

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"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Mat 16:15-19 (KJV)

"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
"And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
"And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
"Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
"And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
"For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:10-16 (KJV)

Peter and Paul were both singled out by Jesus as selected by Him for specific reasons.

"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
"And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
"Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
"But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
"I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
"Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
"And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
"But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
"But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
"And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
"And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
"And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
"Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
"Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Act 11:1-18 (KJV)

"And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
"And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
"And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
"And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles."
Act 22:18-21 (KJV)

Peter was instrumental in the early Jewish Christians accepting the salvation of Gentiles, and the ministry to them - to which Paul was sent.

"But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
"(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
Gal 2:6-9 (KJV)

POINT 3: The two witnesses of Revelation 11 were Peter and Paul.

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"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:2-3

G3376 men (month)
A primary word; a month: - month.
Strong's Concordance

G2250 hemera (day)
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
Strong's Concordance

In researching "Calendar" I discovered that calendars were based on a variety of methods, where some had 10 months and others had 12. Years had a variety of day lengths which required additional months inserted every so many years, or days inserted every so many years, in order to achieve a consistent year.

The general idea is that years were distinct, days were distinct (actual daylight period or 24 hours), while months were flexible in order to accomodate the distinctness of years and days.

POINT 4: The treading of the holy city by Gentiles, and the prophesy of the two witnesses, were not the same time frame.

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QUALIFIER

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Rev 11:4 (KJV)

This is where I see your position in that the witnesses are not persons (olive trees), but a congregation (candlesticks). But my position is that Peter and Paul were selected by Christ and bore witness to Him, and the churches over history have echoed that witness - the spirit of those two witnesses continuing through history.

In the same sense that John the Baptist was the person, John, yet ...
"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."
Mat 11:13-14 (KJV)

And ...
"And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him."
2Ki 2:15 (KJV)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
Joh 12:24 (KJV)

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
"But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."
Mat 13:24-25 (KJV)

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
"(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; "
2Co 10:3-5 (KJV)

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
Rev 17:8 (KJV)

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"I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved (corrected)."
Hab 2:1 (KJV) - and James-49

 

[Barraco]

I get your first point, but I think you are taking the use of the word 'martyr' in a direction it wasn't intended to go. The use of the word martyr was used for Justin Martyr, who was not alive to witness Jesus personally, yet he is still termed a martyr, a witness. The testimony of Jesus isn't just witnessed in person. Even Jesus told his doubters that if they did not believe His miracles that they should try His teachings to know whether or not He was from God.

We therefore find that following Jesus' commands is one way of witnessing of Jesus. And that I will defend later in this post.

For your second point, I don't think that is the direction that Revelation 11 intended to go. You have to take it in context to the entire chapter and that chapter's relation to the rest of the book. Zeroing in on the Greek definition of one word is not the proper method to interpret the identity of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11 begins by measuring the temple. Why? For its rebuilding. That is the important part. If Jerusalem was to lay desolate and without the temple, the rebuilding would be a major topic. And that is the point of the two witnesses. They rebuild the temple. It is taken exactly from Revelation 4, regarding the rebuilding of the second temple.

The two olive trees were never described to Zechariah by the interpreter. Zechariah's question was ignored. Only when Zechariah asked about the actual branches of the olive trees, the interpreter told him that the branches were 'the two anointed ones who stand before The Lord of the whole earth.' (Zech. 4:14) Those were not the trees. They were the branches. And that is important to understand the two witnesses.

The two olive branches were the Joshua the High Priest and Zerubabbel the governor (king). Therefore, the two olive trees are priests and kings. That brings me into those who hear and obey the Gospel.

"and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:5, 6 ESV)

"And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9, 10 ESV)

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6 ESV)

This theme is very repetitive in the book of Revelation alone, which should be our greatest indication. The two witnesses are priests and kings. That is what is meant by them being the two olive trees. But these two terms represent one body of people, not two or just two individuals.

Okay, I see your point regarding Peter and Paul. And I've often times wondered the same. But my question is this: When did Peter and Paul resurrect before 70 CE? In addition to that, when was Jerusalem struck with a earth quake that destroyed a tenth of the city? Even if the earth quake was symbolic, when did the rest of the people in Jerusalem give glory to God? They were all struck down and destroyed fiercely by the Romans. The story doesn't make sense when compared to history.

I disagree. The Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, matched with Luke 21's similar discussion indicates that the tribulation of the Jews and the Times of the Gentiles are the same time frame.

Going back to the two witnesses, there is a major point that many miss. The entire context of Revelation 11 is about Gentiles. And that context is established not in chapter 11, but in chapter 10.

"And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it. It was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings." (Revelation 10:10, 11 ESV)

Ezekiel was commissioned in a similar fashion except that it did not feel bitter in his stomach. He was then told that he was not being sent to a people of strange language but to his own people. John is being told something else. He is being sent to many peoples, nations, languages, and kings. The Gentiles. That is the context of the chapter 11, and indeed until Jesus returns in chapter 19. This is missed by so many eschatologists that it isn't even funny anymore. The two witnesses are Gentiles. And, in line with Romans 11, these Gentiles enjoy the promises of God to bring the Jews to jealousy to accept Jesus as their Messiah. Paul recognized that, if the rejection of the Jews meant blessings for the Gentiles, that the acceptance of the Jews would be the resurrection of the dead. Interestingly, we find in Revelation 11 that the resurrection of the two witnesses are so convincing to those in Jerusalem that the Jews there accept their Messiah and give glory to God.

And thus the temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem. The people of Jerusalem are cleansed by Jesus' blood and God's Spirit enters them like it did Solomon's temple. Thus Ephesians 2 is emphasized. God's people are His temple, with Jesus, their High Priest.

As the two witnesses are priests and kings, they are also two lampstands. It is worth noting that Smyrna was persecuted, but praised by Jesus for their faithful witness. The Philadelphians were told that those that claimed to be Jews would come and bow down before them. Thus, the Smyrnans would be persecuted and the Philadelphians would rule over their oppressors.

We find that this is historically accurate when discussing Church history since 70 CE. The Gentile Church was persecuted by the Romans until 325 CE (fulfilling Revelation 12:17) and then ruled over the pagans and Jews that formerly oppressed them. Since that day, the Gentile nations in which the Gospel produced great fruit have enjoyed great blessings. So long as God's people are in a nation, so are His blessings on that nation. That is why Rome didn't go to war with Judea until 66 CE. Like Sodom wasn't destroyed until Lot fled the city, Jerusalem wasn't besieged until Christ's followers left. The salt of the earth lost its flavor in Jerusalem, and thus it was trampled underfoot.

Interestingly, we find Christ's followers among the Gentiles being called out of Babylon so that they don't partake in her sins. The idea is that they fled the city and thus it was handed over to be destroyed.

 

[James-49]

Hi, Barraco,

First, there's smilies in my post that were never intended. That's how the forum rendered my post. I removed them and noted that was the reason for my edit, but my post has been reverted and the smilies are back. Please ignore them, and any further that may appear.

I get your first point, but I think you are taking the use of the word 'martyr' in a direction it wasn't intended to go.

It was the word "witness" that I was defining - martyr just became associated because the Greek word is "martus".

The two olive trees were never described to Zechariah by the interpreter. Zechariah's question was ignored. Only when Zechariah asked about the actual branches of the olive trees, the interpreter told him that the branches were 'the two anointed ones who stand before The Lord of the whole earth.' (Zech. 4:14) Those were not the trees. They were the branches. And that is important to understand the two witnesses.

How I read this is, he was answered.

Question:
"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
"And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
"So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?"
Zec 4:2-4 (KJV)

Answer:
"Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
"Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it."
Zec 4:6-7 (KJV)

Additional answer:
"Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
"For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth."
Zec 4:8-10 (KJV)

Question (2-part):
"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
"And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
Zec 4:11-12 (KJV)

Answer:
"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Zec 4:14 (KJV)

This really got me to thinking …

-----------------------------------------------------

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
"But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able."
Mat 20:20-22 (KJV)

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Rev 11:4 (KJV)

Were they asking to be the olive trees?

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
Rev 11:3-13 (KJV)

I spent hours looking up the meanings – like “dead bodies” actually defines as ruins or fall. It’s not the same Greek used elsewhere in the New Testament when referring to dead bodies. So was that again the destruction of Jerusalem?

The word earthquake actually defines as commotion. The fall of Jerusalem was definitely a commotion, but so was the attempted rebuilding in 361-62 AD where there was an actual earthquake when the Jewish people removed the last of the previous temple and one stone was truly no longer upon another. Or in 313 when Constantine came into power there was a notable earthquake, where some camps can say that's when the true Church was called out?

Graves uses a unique word from all the other uses in the New Testament, and defines as memorial.

I found in Wikapedia regarding Peter and Paul:
Their bodies were taken in secret and buried in the St Sebastian catacombs on the old Appian Way in southern Rome, until Rome itself became Christian under the emperor Constantine, when their remains were exhumed and Peter's interred in the crypt at St Peter's Basilica, in the Vatican, Rome, and Paul's beneath the altar in St Paul's Basilica, also in southern Rome.

I wondered about the fire from their mouths and found:
“Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
Jer 5:14-18 (KJV)

And that is the point of the two witnesses. They rebuild the temple.

I see your point on this, because we are being built a spiritual house, and it was on the testimony of the witnesses that we are being built.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”
Joh 17:20 (KJV)

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Mat 16:18 (KJV)

-----------------------------------------------------

Now here’s what this all got me thinking about:

It is about the rebuilding of the temple which you indicate, if I understand correctly, a physical temple while I hold to a spiritual temple - but that's not relevant to my point.

"Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."
Zec 4:6 (KJV)

I could gather enough compelling evidence to prove my position - in fact that's why I hold to it. But I realized I could gather enough compelling evidence to prove yours, also.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;"
Revelation (repeated in the letters to the angels of the seven churches)

John saw 6 wings, Ezekiel saw four. Zechariah saw one candlestick. And they were granted to look directly at what we only see dimly or in shadow.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;"
1Co 13:12a (KJV)

If there were discrepencies looking directly at - are we arogant to think we can accurately see by the shadow it casts?

In our building, and being built, a holy temple - not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit ... and the practical reasoning of those who weren't actually there. Really? I don't think so.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
"So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."
1Co 3:6-7 (KJV)

Apollos didn't plant, he watered.

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
"Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."
Mat 13:31-32 (KJV)

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
1Co 12:28 (KJV)

"first apostles" - the apostles had the message, then the prophets (like Apollos) encouraged and exhorted.

In all this, is it possible we're both correct - and not just either/or?

I'm going to look next at trying to prove your position to the same degree that I became convinced of mine.

 

[Barraco]

In regard to Zechariah 4's two olive trees, I want to point the reader to verses 11 and 12.

"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"

As I said earlier, the angel ignored Zechariah's question about the trees. But the angel did answer Zechariah's question about the branches. One branch was Joshua the High Priest and the other was Zerubbabel the governor. Thus, the two trees are anointed offices: The office of High Priest and the office of governor.

In relation to Revelation 11's two witnesses, these two olive trees are priests and kings. That, I believe, settles the matter of the two olive trees. Priests and kings. And that is a description of the ministry of the saints, according to Revelation 1:6, 5:10, and 20:6.

Now, regarding the two lampstands: Zechariah 4 points out that the lampstand was the temple. In its own context, it was the second temple to which Zechariah was commissioned to preach concerning. However, Revelation 1:20, a lampstand is a church. There is no difference here. The Church is the temple of God in which His Spirit dwells. All a temple is is a dwelling place for God's Spirit. But why two?

The best explanation that I can come up with is that lampstands are where God dwells among His people and His people minister to Him. The offices of priest and king minister to God by keeping His commandments (the New Law given by Christ (Heb. 7:22, 24) and testifying of Jesus' name (even if it costs them their lives.) This was faithfully accomplished by Smyrna and Philadelphia. To Smyrna is promised resurrection unto eternal life (fulfilled when the two witnesses are resurrected) and Philadelphia is promised to rule over their oppressors (in that the Jews would come and bow before them). We find that, since Jerusalem was destroyed, the Church has witnessed in these two aspects: They had suffered persecution among all the nations they dwelled until 313 CE and then ruled over their oppressors from then until even today. These are the Gentile nations that were given the kingdom of God after the Jews rejected it (Matt. 21:43.) They live out the promised blessings of Israel (Deut. 28:1-14) in place of the Jews (Eph. 3:3-6, Romans 11:17) while the Jews suffer the curse of the Law that Jesus took on Himself (Deut. 28:15-68, Gal. 3:13) until the blindness of the Jews is healed. That is, until the Times of the Gentiles is fulfilled and their fullness has come (Luke 21:24, Romans 11:25.)

Concerning the measuring of the temple for reconstruction, I do not think that the two witnesses are commissioned to rebuild a literal temple made of stones and jewels in Jerusalem. The measurements were for the altar (of incense, where prayers are offered), the sanctuary where God's Spirit dwells, and the people worshiping (in Spirit and in truth.) The Church. I believe that the two witnesses are commissioned to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem in that their testimony of Jesus is accepted among the Jews there. The Jewish government will receive their King (Zech. 12:10) and His blood will wash them clean and sanctify them (Zech. 13:1), and God's Spirit will take up residence in them (Joel 2:27-31). When the Times of the Gentiles come to a close, the beast from the bottomless pit will surround Jerusalem and make war on the Church (Rev. 11:7). The Church will be killed there (Rev. 11:8) and the Jews left there will call on Jesus' name and He will save them (Zech. 13:8-9; 14, Joel 2:37.) The two witnesses will be resurrected and gathered up and the Jews will glorify God (Rev. 11:11-13, Romans 11:15.) Thus will the temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem: The Jews will be accepted into God's covenant and His Spirit will dwell among them and make them His temple. (Romans 11:26-27) For it is prophesied that Jesus will rule ALL NATIONS. We therefore should not exclude the Jews. (Rev. 11:15, 12:5, 19:15) Then Jesus will descend with a mighty army and slay a great multitude with the sword that comes out of His mouth (Ezek. 38-39, Zech. 14, Rev. 14:19-20, and Rev. 19:11-21.) All arrows point to Jerusalem and the mountains of Israel as being the place Jesus returns. This is not a coincidence that all of this lines up so well.

I hope I have laid a sturdy positive argument about the identity of the two witnesses being the Gentile Church and that their mission is live out the promises of God as priests and kings among the Gentiles until the Jews accept their testimony. When that happens, ALL NATIONS will have become the footstool of the Son of God. That, I believe, is a more accurate explanation of what Revelation 11 lays out.

I look forward to your argument. God bless

 

[James-49]

"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
As I said earlier, the angel ignored Zechariah's question about the trees. But the angel did answer Zechariah's question about the branches.

I find it makes more sense that the answer applied to both questions.

Zechariah uses "answered" in the continuation of a conversation throughout the book, and his answer of the previous answer was two part. Much like, "What are these two firemen?" and "And what are the axes they carry?"

The answer could be, "These are the two rescuers of people trapped in burning buildings." And that answer would equally apply to both firemen and axes where "rescuers" ties to "firemen" and "people trapped" is related to the "axes".

Question (2-part):
"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
"And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
Zec 4:11-12 (KJV)

Answer:
"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Zec 4:14 (KJV)

Zechariah made note of details, and being ignored by the angel should have included a notation of that in keeping with the style of his writing. So I can't see how your conclusion that his question was ignored is valid.

-----------------------------------------------

I mentioned I was going to try and prove your point with the same degree that I'm concinved of mine, but it fell apart in two places.

The first part:

Concerning the measuring of the temple for reconstruction, I do not think that the two witnesses are commissioned to rebuild a literal temple made of stones and jewels in Jerusalem. The measurements were for the altar (of incense, where prayers are offered), the sanctuary where God's Spirit dwells, and the people worshiping (in Spirit and in truth.) The Church. I believe that the two witnesses are commissioned to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem in that their testimony of Jesus is accepted among the Jews there.

The early church was primarily Jews, and Gentiles were added as it progressed.

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
Joh 4:22-23 (KJV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Gal 3:28 (KJV)

If it's a spiritual temple, it cannot be exclusive of Jews. But that's what the "Gentile church" as you describe is - exclusive or separate of Jews. The times of the Gentiles is not the Gentile Church.


The second part:

I hope I have laid a sturdy positive argument about the identity of the two witnesses being the Gentile Church and that their mission is live out the promises of God as priests and kings among the Gentiles until the Jews accept their testimony.

This starts to fall apart in 313AD when Constantine make Christianity legal. He also declares himself Emperor and continues certain pagan practices, like sun worship. It further falls apart in the First Council of Nicea of 325 where an attempt to explain the inexplicable began. Then continues to fall apart in 380AD when Christianity was declared the state religion of the empire and the unregenerate started filling the assemblies. And the first Christian against Christian persecution began over a difference in doctrine.

Then there's the selling of indulgences, inquisitions, separation and factions, crusades...

I think just on the obvious our Lord would not have chosen such witnesses to stand before Him.

-----------------------------------------------

I had wondered if the trees were Peter and Paul, and the oil dripping was their testimony handed through to each generation. In that I wondered if we might both be correct, but it falls apart for me in trying to conclude that.

I'm still persuaded it is Peter and Paul. Peter, and the other apostles - Paul and his companions. Like the many parables spoken by Jesus, often it was to do with planting and growth, and these two witnesses were the planting, and the testimony that resulted spread worldwide.

 

[Barraco]

I find it makes more sense that the answer applied to both questions.

Zechariah uses "answered" in the continuation of a conversation throughout the book, and his answer of the previous answer was two part. Much like, "What are these two firemen?" and "And what are the axes they carry?"

I don't think that is the case here. I get what you are saying, but I think the text is explicit. He's never told what the trees are, just the branches. An exegesis on the book will show that these two branches were Joshua the High Priest and Zerubbabel the governor. Therefore, the trees are lines of priests and kings. Joshua and Zerubabbel's commission was to rebuild the temple that one day the Messiah would enter and mediate the covenant between God and Israel. In the same context, the temple is measured in Revelation 11:1-2 because the one that was existent, the second temple, was to be destroyed. The two witnesses are commissioned after that. The best determination is that the purpose of their prophecy is to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

HOWEVER, as I've stated before, the temple that the rebuild is not a literal temple building. It is the Gospel being established in the hearts of Israel (ethnic) in Jerusalem. That is the purpose of the two witnesses. They witness to the world, and their witness ends in Jerusalem with those left in the city glorifying God. (See Romans 11:25-26.)

The answer could be, "These are the two rescuers of people trapped in burning buildings." And that answer would equally apply to both firemen and axes where "rescuers" ties to "firemen" and "people trapped" is related to the "axes".

Question (2-part):
"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
"And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
Zec 4:11-12 (KJV)

Answer:
"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Zec 4:14 (KJV)

Zechariah made note of details, and being ignored by the angel should have included a notation of that in keeping with the style of his writing. So I can't see how your conclusion that his question was ignored is valid.

-----------------------------------------------

I think Zechariah's question was valid. As I explained before, the ignoring of the trees question but answering of the branches question shows what the answer to the first question was. A tree has multiple branches. If one branch from one tree is a high priest and the the other branch from the other tree is a king, then one tree is a collection of priests and the other tree is a collection of kings.

I mentioned I was going to try and prove your point with the same degree that I'm concinved of mine, but it fell apart in two places.

The first part:

The early church was primarily Jews, and Gentiles were added as it progressed.

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
Joh 4:22-23 (KJV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Gal 3:28 (KJV)

If it's a spiritual temple, it cannot be exclusive of Jews. But that's what the "Gentile church" as you describe is - exclusive or separate of Jews. The times of the Gentiles is not the Gentile Church.

I agree that the early Church was primarily Jews. What I think you are missing is an understanding of what the kingdom of God is. Jesus told so many parables about the kingdom of God, yet many Christians I have spoken with are content to just talk about going to heaven after they die. It's contrary to everything Jesus ever taught.

The kingdom of God was the promises made to Abraham that: 1) From his seed God would make a great nation and 2) That all families of the earth would be blessed through him.

The first promise was fulfilled when David conquered all the land promised to Abraham. That promise was revoked for 560 years after the Jews were exiled.

The second promise was fulfilled when Jesus poured out His Holy Spirit on the apostles during the day of Pentecost.

The kingdom of God was the fulfillment of ALL of God's promises to Abraham. The Jews never anticipated that other nations would be included. Matthew 21:43 and Matthew 22:1-14 show that, when Jerusalem would be destroyed, the kingdom of God would be given to the Gentiles. Thus all nations were blessed through Abraham's seed. These were legitimate and immediate blessings. The Gentile received it and have been blessed ever since:

"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" (Romans 11:11-15 ESV)

The second part:

This starts to fall apart in 313AD when Constantine make Christianity legal. He also declares himself Emperor and continues certain pagan practices, like sun worship. It further falls apart in the First Council of Nicea of 325 where an attempt to explain the inexplicable began. Then continues to fall apart in 380AD when Christianity was declared the state religion of the empire and the unregenerate started filling the assemblies. And the first Christian against Christian persecution began over a difference in doctrine.

Then there's the selling of indulgences, inquisitions, separation and factions, crusades...

I think just on the obvious our Lord would not have chosen such witnesses to stand before Him.

I disagree. Did God destroy Israel when Solomon committed idolatry? Or how long after his children committed idolatry did God exile the Northern Kingdom and destroy Jerusalem? And God even gave Judah 490 more years after the 70 years of exile.

But that is beside the point. In Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about a statue of Himself. In the Near East, a king setting up his statue in a foreign land meant that he had dominion over that land. The Romans did the same with their ensigns. Jesus did the same with His Church, by His Gospel. The kingdom took over whether the pagan kings wanted it to or not. I wanted to show you something. It's about what Jesus told the Jewish government.

"Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits." (Matthew 21:43 ESV)

And just like Revelation 11:2 shows, the kingdom of God, including Jerusalem, was taken from the Jews in 70 CE and given to the Romans, among whom the Gospel flourished.

So, whether or not the Roman government wanted it to, the Christians were destined to overcome. The Gentiles were blessed BECAUSE of the Church. They were going to receive the kingdom! Just as the rock carved with no hands smashed Nebuchadnezzar's statue at the feet and grows into a great mountain, so did the kingdom of God start small in Bethlehem and grow to take over the world. Jesus Christ, through His Church, has been setting up His ensign everywhere the Gospel was spread. And where it spreads, so does God's blessings (Deut. 28:1-14) spread and produce righteousness. The kingdom of God has been here as long as Christ has reigned, which is since His resurrection. (Matthew 28:18)

-----------------------------------------------

I had wondered if the trees were Peter and Paul, and the oil dripping was their testimony handed through to each generation. In that I wondered if we might both be correct, but it falls apart for me in trying to conclude that.

I'm still persuaded it is Peter and Paul. Peter, and the other apostles - Paul and his companions. Like the many parables spoken by Jesus, often it was to do with planting and growth, and these two witnesses were the planting, and the testimony that resulted spread worldwide.

Well, I'm not certain I can convince. My job is to argue my beliefs.

The kingdom of God is the kingdom of righteousness, and it has taken over the Gentile nations, even the ones that are secular. The Church flourishes and conquers these nations by love in the name of the King, Jesus. The Church among the Gentiles will continue to do this until Jerusalem receives its king. Then the throne of David will once again return to Jerusalem, with Jesus sitting on it.

 

[James-49]

He's never told what the trees are, just the branches.

You use this point as part of the basis for your position, but I'm only seeing it as your opinion and not being qualified by scripture or precedent.

"Tell us when these things shall be? And what is the sign when all these things are about to be done?
"And answering, Jesus began to say to them, Be careful that no one lead you astray."
Mar 13:4-5 (KJV)

I could as easily say that Jesus ignored the question of when and only answered about what sign. But that now renders new interpretation to the rest of His discourse.

I think Zechariah's question was valid. As I explained before, the ignoring of the trees question but answering of the branches question shows what the answer to the first question was. A tree has multiple branches. If one branch from one tree is a high priest and the the other branch from the other tree is a king, then one tree is a collection of priests and the other tree is a collection of kings.

I think we have reached an impasse in exploring Zechariah to the exclusion of Revalation 11.

What I think you are missing is an understanding of what the kingdom of God is. Jesus told so many parables about the kingdom of God, yet many Christians I have spoken with are content to just talk about going to heaven after they die. It's contrary to everything Jesus ever taught.

Ouch.

-----------------------------------------

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
"And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."
Zec 4:2-3 (KJV)

"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
"nd I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
Zec 4:11-12 (KJV)

A golden candlestick with a bowl on top. Two pipes lead to the bowl and the two branches drip their oil through those pipes into the bowl. Seven pipes lead from the bowl to provide the fuel (oil) to seven lamps.

"And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
"His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
"And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
"And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."
Rev 1:12-16 (KJV)

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."
Rev 1:20 (KJV)

The seven candlesticks are the seven churches which I would compare to the seven lamps of Zechariah. Fed by the oil of the trees and pipes.

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Rev 11:4 (KJV)

Two trees and two candlesticks comparable to the two trees and two pipes.

The two witnesses feed the seven churches with their testimony. The churches believe and act accordingly but are not witnesses themselves.

-----------------------------------------

A person is brought to court and a couple witnesses give their testimony. The jury then acts upon what they heard. But the jury doesn't become witnesses themselves.

That same person goes for a job 20 years later, and a review of their history shows the prospective employer the court incident. The office which held the records are not the witnesses, and neither is the propsective employer. They only act on what they have been provided, or told.

-----------------------------------------

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
Rev 11:10 (KJV)

Nero blamed Christians for the fire of Rome. The spectacles in the arenas certainly entertained the spectators - those that dwell upon the earth. It was their celebration times.

"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
Rev 11:11-12 (KJV)

Who saw them? Who were their enemies that beheld them? We know the devil is their enemy, and his angels.

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
Rev 11:13 (KJV)

The start of the temple destruction? The 7,000 were slain in, not killed by.

And giving glory to God in the context appears like the crying out of people during a catastrophe - they may not actually hold to God but they still cry out, "Oh my God!"

 

[Barraco]

You use this point as part of the basis for your position, but I'm only seeing it as your opinion and not being qualified by scripture or precedent.

"Tell us when these things shall be? And what is the sign when all these things are about to be done?
"And answering, Jesus began to say to them, Be careful that no one lead you astray."
Mar 13:4-5 (KJV)

I could as easily say that Jesus ignored the question of when and only answered about what sign. But that now renders new interpretation to the rest of His discourse.

I think we have reached an impasse in exploring Zechariah to the exclusion of Revalation 11.

Perhaps. With your argument, we are to suppose that, without any historical evidence, the two witnesses were Peter and Paul. We are also to suppose that they were resurrected not long after they were killed. The problem with that theory is that the two witnesses die in the city of Jerusalem whereas Peter and Paul were said to have died in Rome. Another issue: Both Peter and Paul did not plague the world.

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
"And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."
Zec 4:2-3 (KJV)

"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
"nd I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
Zec 4:11-12 (KJV)

A golden candlestick with a bowl on top. Two pipes lead to the bowl and the two branches drip their oil through those pipes into the bowl. Seven pipes lead from the bowl to provide the fuel (oil) to seven lamps.

"And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
"His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
"And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
"And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."
Rev 1:12-16 (KJV)

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."
Rev 1:20 (KJV)

The seven candlesticks are the seven churches which I would compare to the seven lamps of Zechariah. Fed by the oil of the trees and pipes.

The two witnesses pour oil into the lampstand. Oil is for anointing. In Jewish history, there are only two types of people that are anointed: High Priest and King. In Zechariah, both were instrumental in rebuilding the temple. Again, that is the context of chapter 11, and for which the two witnesses minister.

After the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the roles of high priest and king were combined. The king/high priest would administer judgment from his throne in the temple.

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Rev 11:4 (KJV)

Two trees and two candlesticks comparable to the two trees and two pipes.

The two witnesses feed the seven churches with their testimony. The churches believe and act accordingly but are not witnesses themselves.

Jesus Himself administers the office of High Priest and King. In Rev. 1:6, 5:10, and 20:6, we are shown that the saints are made to be both priests and kings by Jesus blood. So we become co-heirs through Christ. If the two witnesses are commissioned to build the temple, and the Church is the temple that is built upon the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief corner stone, then the two witnesses are the saints; the priests and kings anointed to build the temple.

A person is brought to court and a couple witnesses give their testimony. The jury then acts upon what they heard. But the jury doesn't become witnesses themselves.

That same person goes for a job 20 years later, and a review of their history shows the prospective employer the court incident. The office which held the records are not the witnesses, and neither is the propsective employer. They only act on what they have been provided, or told.

I get your point, but it is out of context. Revelation 11:1 shows that the purpose of the two witnesses' ministry to rebuild the temple, the Church, in all nations.

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
Rev 11:10 (KJV)

Nero blamed Christians for the fire of Rome. The spectacles in the arenas certainly entertained the spectators - those that dwell upon the earth. It was their celebration times.

"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
Rev 11:11-12 (KJV)

Who saw them? Who were their enemies that beheld them? We know the devil is their enemy, and his angels.

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
Rev 11:13 (KJV)

The start of the temple destruction? The 7,000 were slain in, not killed by.

And giving glory to God in the context appears like the crying out of people during a catastrophe - they may not actually hold to God but they still cry out, "Oh my God!"

From what I read of Josephus' accounts of Jerusalem's destruction, this just doesn't seem to fit. In Jotapata, 40,000 alone were slain. In Jeruslaem, 600,000 to 1.1 million Jews were slain by the Romans. I'm still seeing this as future fulfillment.

The two witnesses are the saints. They build the Church, the ensign of Christ's dominion and the temple of God's Holy Spirit. They are priests and kings anointed to the holy work of building God's temple throughout the world. They are anointed by God for this purpose, whether it be to suffer or to rule. They enjoy the fruits of God's righteous kingdom and they plague those that oppose them. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25-26), the two witnesses will have finished their testimony in Jerusalem and will be killed. This will set in motion the events foretold in Revelation, concerning their resurrection.

"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"[/b] (Romans 11:13-15 ESV)

 

[James-49]

Hi, Barraco,

Since this is the last post I wanted to start by thanking you for proposing and participating in this debate. I've appreciated the opportunity to scrutinize my belief and to try and be willing to learn.

Perhaps. With your argument, we are to suppose that, without any historical evidence, the two witnesses were Peter and Paul. We are also to suppose that they were resurrected not long after they were killed. The problem with that theory is that the two witnesses die in the city of Jerusalem whereas Peter and Paul were said to have died in Rome. Another issue: Both Peter and Paul did not plague the world.

I did try to include historical refernce in my first post, but other than what is recorded in Scripture there's mostly tradition available.

To try and get this better presented, consider John the Baptist. He was an actual, historical figure. But so was Elijah who then was also John the Baptist. He was Elijah who was to come according to prophecy, but he was also John the Baptist according to history. John's call to repentance has continued on as the basis to mankind (Jew or Gentile) calling on the name of Jesus our Lord.

So what we have is:
1. Prophecy: Elijah
2. Impact: Call to repentance
3. Historic: John the Baptist

The prophecy was fulfilled and the impact enacted and pivoted on the historic person. Each is distinct but related.

As far as the two witnesses go, they were prophesied by Zechariah and referenced in Revelation. Their impact was that God was in Man reconciling the world to Himself. The message we hear and share today isn't something new other than what Peter (and the apostles) and Paul (and his companions) spoke - so the impact originates in and extends from that era of pre 70AD.

Scripture repeatedly shows Peter and Paul foremost in the doctrine we receive. Peter was instrumental in the Jews accepting the salvation of the Gentiles, and Paul was instrumental in bringing the news of that salvation to the Gentiles.

So what we have is:
1. Prohecy: two olive trees and two olive brances and two lampstands
2. Impact: Call to the kingdom of God
3. Historic: Peter and Paul

Now consider this that Christ was crucified OUTSIDE Jerusalem, but He was crucified IN the great city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Rev 11:8 (KJV)

Whether Peter and Paul were themselves raised I couldn't say, but their impact survived the horrendous persecutions which sought to destroy Christianity. In essence, it was overcome but then it overcame.

And plagues are as simple as the drunk who doesn't want to keep hearing about the need for sobriety. He knows it, but it grieves him to hear it. Scripture uses plague in this context often.

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The two witnesses pour oil into the lampstand. Oil is for anointing. In Jewish history, there are only two types of people that are anointed: High Priest and King.

What you are saying then is, the witnesses provide the oil, but High Priest and King receive of the oil.

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Revelation 11:1 shows that the purpose of the two witnesses' ministry to rebuild the temple, the Church, in all nations

Measuring in scripture is often in reference to determining a limit.

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months"
Rev 11:1-2 (KJV)

It is possible the reference was to determine an expiration date for the temple that doesn't coincide with the expiration date of the Gentiles trampling the city. The second temple fell while the Gentiles continues to trample.

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:3 (KJV)

It seems this verse explains the two witnesses' purpose very clearly. Prophesy, or bear witness.

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When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25-26), the two witnesses will have finished their testimony in Jerusalem and will be killed.

Just to repeat: Christ was crucified OUTSIDE Jerusalem, but He was crucified IN the great city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Rev 11:8 (KJV)

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I think we have both pointed to flaws in our arguments that certainly have caused me to take a closer look. Once again, my thanks for participating and sharing your considerations.

If there's more insight that you would like to provide please PM me. I try to persuade myself thoroughly, but recognize I can still be mistaken.

 

[Barraco]

Hey James, its been great discussing this with you. I haven't had the chance to really reciprocate with you on this topic so I wanted to email you and give you feedback on the time that I spent thinking through your arguments. I must admit that I think you are on to something. I have come to believe that Peter and Paul have something to do the Two Witnesses, although I do not believe that they are THE Two Witnesses.

The book of Revelation is addressed to seven churches, but it only mentions two groups of people: The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the great Gentile multitude, as mentioned in Revelation 7. These two groups are mentioned again in Revelation 12:1 and 12:17 as the woman (Israel, Genesis 37:9-10) and her offspring (the Gentiles, Romans 4:18, 9:7.) And its no mystery that Peter ministered to those in Judea while Paul ministered to those in Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Rome.

Where I disagree with you is your belief that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are the fulfillment of what was foretold in Zechariah 4. As a historicist, I am largely concerned with exegesis when I read a book. Zechariah was written to Jews in Babylon who were reluctant to leave their comfortable lives in Babylon to rebuild the temple while dressed in full body armor to ward of the Edomites. In chapter 4, Zechariah is shown two olive trees with two branches. The branches were identified throughout the book as Joshua the high priest and Zerubabbel the governor. These were the two that stood before The Lord of all creation. These did not receive the oil but rather poured oil into the lampstand. In otherwords, they were commissioned by God to lead the building of the new temple. Their anointment was used to carry about the temple's construction. So Revelation 11 is not the fulfillment of Zechariah 4. Rather, Zechariah 4, along with its historical fulfillment, are being quoted in Revelation 11 to point out the identity of these two witnesses.

Notice that there are no branches mentioned nor is any oil being poured. The two olive trees, which Zechariah 4 indicates are priests and kings, don't need oil because they are also the two lampstands. Zechariah 4 shows that the lampstand is the temple. The temple is the Church, as shown in Revelation 11:1-2 and Ephesians 2:18-22. Also, Revelation 1:20 shows that a lampstand is a church. And a church is an assembly of saints, believers in Jesus Christ. And so I find your view reconciles with mine on this point: That the two lampstands are the churches of the Israelites and of the Gentiles; of the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel and of the great Gentile multitude dressed in white; of the woman of Revelation 12:1 and her offspring in 12:17. They are the priests and kings (Revelation 1:6, 5:10, 20:6) who prophecy by testifying to an unbelieving and wicked world (Sodom and Egypt) of The Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:10.) They are the handiwork of Peter to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. They witness to the world between the time that Jerusalem was destroyed (Revelation 11:3) and the kingdom of God given over to the Gentiles (Matthew 21:42-45) until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Romans 11:25-26) after which the blindness of Jerusalem is healed and the saints are resurrected (Romans 11:13-15.) During that long course of history, the beast inadvertently spreads the Gospel by taking over the entire world. When God decides, Jerusalem will be established in her place again and the temple (Church) will be established among the people there. The dead will be resurrected and Jerusalem be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Peter and Paul represent the Two Witnesses by laying the base for building the Church among the elect remnant of Israel and Gentiles so that they can become priests and kings to our God is something I can reconcile. But I can't reconcile that Revelation 11's Two Witnesses are the fulfillment of what was written in Zechariah 4.

What do you think?