There is probably no answer

[Jana Jiráková]

There is probably no answer for these questions yet, but I must ask. I have read in a very very old Czech Bible the beggining, creation of world and man. It sounds so simply and clear, yet it brings more questions for me. Why did it happen ? Why God created people ? Why did He put them into "garden" = kind of protected area ? - protected against what ? Why did He put there the trees - was it kind of intentional temptation, a test....what for ? Since God knows everything, He surely knew, what will happen. Why didn´t Adam tell us more about what happened ? And what happened before creation of people in the heavenly realm ? It is said there, that all He created was good. When everything is "good", how can suddenly something "evil" occur ?? And what was actually meant by "knowing good and evil" - what kind of knowledge is God speaking about ???
And then - at the end of time - "evil" shall go to hell and the "good ones" to Eden. Sounds very righteous. But how can I be happy rejoicing in heaven when knowing that someone else is suffering in hell ?
And what is the sense of that all ? The ultimate goal seems to be people reunited in love with God. The descriptions I´ve heard about all talk about people rejoicing, singing and praising God in heaven. I also know Paul said that it will be completely different and is beyond our imagination.
But from the "earthly" point of view (we are subjected to and limited by space and time) I must ask - where will my loved ones be ? If my family will be in heaven, how would our life be there ??? The imperative is "to love God above all" - that is more than your own family. I know, its a stupid parable, but is is as if someone told a child, who lived all his/her life with adoptive parents, that he/she has to love more than everybody else his/her biological parents, who he/she never met.
The story in the Bible sounds very crazy, but it claims to be the truth. Maybe people wouldn´t undertstand if it was written in another way ? Maybe we don´t have or have lost something that enabled us to understand ? I know it sounds quite crazy, but sometimes I think that we live in some "matrix world" - we see what we see, but there is another world behind, hidden to us. What would happen if we could see and hear all the daemons and angels who are around ? If we understood ? What if in all the music and words we listen to, advertisements we see....what if the message is different and instead of "buy this product and be happy" is written "buy it, so you will be in hell sooner" ???

I am not under the influence of any drugs nor am I menatlly ill (at least I think so
and I don´t say what is written in the Bible is not true - I believe the story is true from the beggining till end - but it leaves so many "why" questions.... I wish I understood - and fear it at the same time. Maybe the knowledge and understanding would be an unbearable burden, maybe that´s the reason, why we can know things only partially now ?? I don´t know. I feel so confused. I wish I had a strong faith and could trust and stop questioning, but I can´t. I wish I had an explanation.
I wish I understood. I wish I found the key.
Please don´t stone me to death

 

[Coralie]

I am on my mobile phone typing this, so I can't answer properly -- I will try tomorrow if no-one else has answered you / helped you / if I can add something -- but I just want to say, I have felt the way you feel, and there is nothing shameful in it!! You are asking the ultimate questions, this is very important and a good thing, even tho it hurts.

Jesus said, ask, seek, knock. You're doing the right thing and no-one should stone you for that.

I'll answer in more detail tomorrow. Much love xxx Lord have mercy!

 

[St. Columcille]

You certainly have a lot of different questions. In my personal dialogue with other Orthodox, as well as some very interesting perspectives ranging from "A Nice Place to Visit" (an old episode of "The Twilight Zone") and Clive Staples Lewis' description in his book "The Great Divorce," I should think regarding the state of Hell to be something of an inward vice. As Lewis puts it, the doors of hell are locked from the inside. From the Twilight Zone episode, the burglar in hell states to his "angel" that he does not want to be in heaven, that he wants to go to the "other place." The angel replied to him, what makes you think this is heaven? This is the other place!
The Orthodox view on my estimation is just as great from what I understand. Since God is present, even in hades, his "divine light" is searing. To those who are righteous, this same very divine light is something to bask in. In essense, Heaven and Hell are one and the same place, but how it is recieved by those whose minds are in darkness is torment and those who are in the light recieve it with great delight. At any rate, I am sure there are many different analogies or parables to express the problem. Jesus used several different analogies of what "heaven is like." The main thing to focus on is not necessarily the specifics as what is practical. What is the story attempting to teach those who first heard it? This is the purpose of hermeneutics. This is something that has been commented on by numerous Catholics (I hear am using the term as applying to all Christians of Orthodoxy before the split--our shared Saints like St. John Chrysostom and other Early Church Fathers).
I am unsure where the problem lies with your questions. Perhaps you are looking at the problem to "scholastically," perhaps the issue lies elsewhere.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

For me, Faith involves the full submission to God. That submission involves the full acceptance of God's Holy Word. With that acceptance, and through submission, I accept that Holy Scripture contains only what God wills us to know, and therefore what we need to know.

Scripture does not always give us what we want to know, but that is our will versus God's Will isn't it?

 

[Coralie]

Hi Jana. I’m going to answer this in several separate posts.

Why did it happen ?
Why God created people ?
Why did He put them into "garden" = kind of protected area …?<snip>

This could be talked about for a hundred pages. Are you in contact with a priest? Alternatively, maybe start another thread about this in St Basil the Great’s Hall. You have nothing to fear. There are answers, they’re just very long!

And what happened before creation of people in the heavenly realm ? It is said there, that all He created was good. When everything is "good", how can suddenly something "evil" occur ??

We’re made in the image of God. This means we have the power of choice, just like God. “Evil” is choosing to go against what God wills. By allowing us freedom of choice, God ran the risk of us choosing to go against Him. Again, there are hundreds of excellent books written on this topic.

And what was actually meant by "knowing good and evil" - what kind of knowledge is God speaking about ???

I am not a theologian, but I think this refers to a human being knowing they are capable of choosing something God does not want. That is the knowledge of good and evil. Before the first sin, all we knew was God’s will, and we were perfectly united to it… but now, we have sadly experienced the opposite. We have a knowledge of both good and evil.

And then - at the end of time - "evil" shall go to hell and the "good ones" to Eden. Sounds very righteous. But how can I be happy rejoicing in heaven when knowing that someone else is suffering in hell ?

Your description of Hell ^ is not fully Orthodox. The way I was taught, Heaven/Eden and Hell are the same place: the presence of God. When you die, you go into the presence of God. If you love God, you experience His presence as heavenly. If you hate God, the experience is hellish. If you are somewhere in between, God’s light may burn away what evil is left in you. You may suffer if you struggle against this light, but if you are willing to submit to God, soon you will experience Heaven.

It’s not as simple as “Heaven and Hell”, “good and evil”. We are all both good and evil, but God is giving us the opportunity to become less evil each day. To move into His light.

<snip>... I must ask - where will my loved ones be ? If my family will be in heaven, how would our life be there ???

Perhaps think about the description of God’s presence I gave you, and you’ll come up with some ideas. Then talk to a priest about it and see what he says.

continued in next post...

 

[Coralie]

The imperative is "to love God above all" - that is more than your own family. I know, its a stupid parable, but is is as if someone told a child, who lived all his/her life with adoptive parents, that he/she has to love more than everybody else his/her biological parents, who he/she never met.

I feel there is something you’re missing. I don’t think you understand what we mean when we say “love God above all” in Orthodoxy. Again, you must talk to a priest and spend time with other Orthodox talking about these issues. “Internet Orthodoxy” is not real Orthodoxy… you learn the real thing by living a life within the Church.

But having said that, I will try to explain a little what I feel you are missing. To “love God above all” means submitting your life to Him even when you don’t understand Him yet. “We live by faith, not by sight.” It’s like marriage: you never really know your spouse until you marry them. You can’t know them; they won’t reveal themselves until they know you’re there to stay. With God, it’s a little different… we can’t know Him until WE are open to Him. Our pride and fear keep us from Him and we MUST let go of these things if we have any hope of knowing Him.

As you say… in a mysterious way, our eyes are blind. We must make the commitment to go to Church, read the Bible, pray for the living and the dead, sing hymns, give alms, and serve others… and THEN we see God revealed.

That’s not an easy thing to do… but what is the alternative? For me, it is God or death. I can’t live without God. So I submit to Him and hope one day I will understand. I’ve tried everything else, and it doesn’t work, it only makes life more miserable and full of suffering and confusion. God is my only hope. Perhaps you feel the same. I don’t know.

The story in the Bible sounds very crazy, but it claims to be the truth. Maybe people wouldn´t undertstand if it was written in another way ? Maybe we don´t have or have lost something that enabled us to understand ?

I would say both your statements here are true. Again, we could write hundreds of pages about this. I wish I had more time.

continued in next post

 

[Coralie]

I know it sounds quite crazy, but sometimes I think that we live in some "matrix world" - we see what we see, but there is another world behind, hidden to us.

Yes, I think that’s exactly right. I mean… even on a purely physical level, this is true.

What would happen if we could see and hear all the daemons and angels who are around ? If we understood ?

We would be unable to cope. Saints have actually written about this… I forget where exactly, but I know there are writings out there. Again, pages and pages are possible.

What if in all the music and words we listen to, advertisements we see....what if the message is different and instead of "buy this product and be happy" is written "buy it, so you will be in hell sooner" ???

Yes… maybe that is true. Maybe we don’t know that when we say “buy this and be happy” we actually MEAN, without knowing it, is “buy this and be even further removed from God”. Maybe we are so blind we don’t see what we are doing, what we are choosing. This is why we must cry out to God for mercy and help. It is SCARY. But if you are a person who thinks about these things, you must find a solution. I think the only solution is Orthodoxy.

I am not under the influence of any drugs nor am I menatlly ill (at least I think so and I don´t say what is written in the Bible is not true - I believe the story is true from the beggining till end - but it leaves so many "why" questions.... I wish I understood - and fear it at the same time. Maybe the knowledge and understanding would be an unbearable burden, maybe that´s the reason, why we can know things only partially now ?? I don´t know. I feel so confused. I wish I had a strong faith and could trust and stop questioning, but I can´t. I wish I had an explanation.
I wish I understood. I wish I found the key.

I think about these things too. I don’t think there is anything wrong with these questions. I WISH you were here with me, in this room, so we could talk face to face. Because I think I know exactly how you feel, and I have so much to tell you but no time to do it.

Can I tell you one thing though? When I think about these things too much, I get so unhappy and even despairing, because it feels like there's no definite answer. Then I realize, I am trying to solve the problems of the universe by thinking about them. And that is ridiculous. My mind is tiny (like everyone’s). I am a tiny little ant in a huge universe that’s full of mystery.

Sometimes when I’m thinking too much, all I can do is sit outside and look at the sky and remember how small I am, how much of a miracle it is that I even exist, that I have a mind, that I can think at all. Then I try to say my prayers and think how mysterious it all is. None of us – not even the atheist scientist or the university professor or the philosopher – knows the mind of God. We don’t know what lies beyond the stars. So the only way through life is to be humble, and that means being Orthodox.

 

[Coralie]

I don't know if I helped you at all, but I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

Most people who convert to Orthodoxy do it after going through all the thoughts and questions and doubts you are having. There is always a long search before something precious is found. You will find many Orthodox brothers and sisters who know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

Please get into contact with a priest! I am praying for you... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[Jana Jiráková]

Thank you Coralie. You gave me hope, that asking these questions is not useless. I will try to find out as much as I can, so I can understand. It´s as if I am trying to find something, but do not know what exactly it is but I desperately want it.

 

[Coralie]

Thank you Coralie. You gave me hope, that asking these questions is not useless.

Glory to God.

It´s as if I am trying to find something, but do not know what exactly it is but I desperately want it.

I know EXACTLY, exactly, exactly what you mean. I went through this five or so years ago. When I realised I had to find God, it was like my whole life, my whole identity, collapsed and I had to start all over again from nothing. I felt naked, all alone. I couldn't rest until I'd found the answers to my questions.

I pray you will find someone soon who can be your spiritual father (if you haven't yet). if you need help locating a priest (he must be officially part of the Church, you don't want to be talking to someone outside the Church who might have weird ideas), let me know.

Lots of love and prayers for you xxx

 

[Mytheodos]

Hi Jana!
Go to this site.
There you will find alot of answers..
Page Title
if the above link does not work try this..
Page Title

 

[buzuxi02]

The angels and humans were created with free will. Certain angels rebelled against God over objections in creation. Jewish folklore, christian apocrypha and islamic texts believe that that some angels became jealous over the creation of man. Angels were only spiritual beings while man is both rational soul and a material body with the ability to procreate in their own image.
These angels were cast out from heaven and now make war with its enemy which is the material world. Man was created without the passions of the flesh, originally Adam and Eve were simple and naive like children. They were created without jealousy and prejudice and never-ending conflict. Satan saw an oppurtunity to corrupt the innocence of man and make them like 'gods' who do feel jealousy. He tempted Eve to eat of the fruit, which opened her eyes. The eating of the fruit has expanded mans knowledge and his inquiry and desire to learn, but with it came all the passions of the flesh. Thus God has put an age limit on humans, God cast them out of Eden so they would not eat of the friut of immortality.
We die because the merciful God does not want us to be immortal in sin. He does not want us to age with our bodies deteriorating from use and abuse forever. When the ressurection occurs our souls will be reunited with its material body in incorruption

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is probably no answer for these questions yet, but I must ask. I have read in a very very old Czech Bible the beggining, creation of world and man. It sounds so simply and clear, yet it brings more questions for me. Why did it happen ?

because God is Love, and He wanted to share that love with others, so He created us and His angels to share in that Divine Love.

Why did He put there the trees - was it kind of intentional temptation, a test....what for ? Since God knows everything, He surely knew, what will happen. Why didn´t Adam tell us more about what happened ?

I heard with this for a few reasons. for one, Love is always freely given, and either freely recieved or rejected. the option to reject God's Love has to be there, or else it is not a God of Love you are dealing with. so God has to give Adam the choice to fall away if he so choses, and he did. the other reason is that those trees were good trees, but Adam and Eve were bot ready for them yet. sorta like trying to teach sex to a 3 year old. sex is good, but way above what the 3 year old can handle. same is true here, Adam and Eve had to grow more into God's likeness, then they woulda been ready for those Trees.

And what happened before creation of people in the heavenly realm ?

There was God and only Him.

It is said there, that all He created was good. When everything is "good", how can suddenly something "evil" occur ??

evil is the twisting and misuse of the good. so evil does not have a postitive existance of it's own. sorta like how darkness is the lack of light, or silence is just the lack of sound. evil occurs when free willed beings, misuse anything God gives them.

And what was actually meant by "knowing good and evil" - what kind of knowledge is God speaking about ???

it is a knowledge that they were not ready for yet. see the analogy of sex above.

And then - at the end of time - "evil" shall go to hell and the "good ones" to Eden. Sounds very righteous. But how can I be happy rejoicing in heaven when knowing that someone else is suffering in hell ?

I heard here that when you are in Paradise you are so filled with the love of God, love of the saints with you, and love of the refashioned Creation, that just won't think of the sinners in hell. sorta like if you are at a party with someone you really like, you get all those happy infatuated feelings, and time seems to fly by and you don't even notice. Martains could land in the backyard and you's still be gaga eyed for this person.

And what is the sense of that all ? The ultimate goal seems to be people reunited in love with God. The descriptions I´ve heard about all talk about people rejoicing, singing and praising God in heaven. I also know Paul said that it will be completely different and is beyond our imagination.
But from the "earthly" point of view (we are subjected to and limited by space and time) I must ask - where will my loved ones be ? If my family will be in heaven, how would our life be there ??? The imperative is "to love God above all" - that is more than your own family. I know, its a stupid parable, but is is as if someone told a child, who lived all his/her life with adoptive parents, that he/she has to love more than everybody else his/her biological parents, who he/she never met.

I think asking this is more of find out when you get there. you will be in communion with all the saints that are there with you.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't know if I helped you at all, but I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

Most people who convert to Orthodoxy do it after going through all the thoughts and questions and doubts you are having. There is always a long search before something precious is found. You will find many Orthodox brothers and sisters who know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

Please get into contact with a priest! I am praying for you... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

True. And I was "born" into the faith. Baptized and chrismated at age 1. But didn't grow up in the Church (visited a hand ful of times and knew about God and Son of God...a couple OT stories, that was it). And when I came back to the Church, so to speak, it took me a good decade to really "become Orthodox Christian" if you can understand what I mean. It's a spiritual growth and life-long process and journey, imo.