There is no predestination unto salvation in the Bible

Mark Quayle

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Yes. I do know Reformed Baptists have adopted this teaching and why.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith copied the Westminster Confession almost word-for-word, except in the area of baptism.
The Baptists corrected the sections on baptism, but ignored many other errors in the document.

The term "New Covenant" is not found in either document.

Both documents have invented the term "the moral law" in an attempt to hang onto the Old Covenant, and ignore the New Covenant.
The documents claim "the moral law" was given to Adam in the garden, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, and he had no mother to honor.

These "Reformed" documents also claim we are still under the 4th commandment, even though Colossians 2:16-17 says otherwise.

They ignore the fact that Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31.

They also ignore the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

They also ignore that we are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

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Westminster Confession of Faith


Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God



I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the fore mentioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.


(emphasis by bold text is mine)


from www.reformed.org/documents

……………………………….................................................................................

See the following "Reformed" source for the truth about the origin of your doctrine.

Augustine’s Calvinism: The Doctrines of Grace in Augustine’s Writings – by C. Matthew McMahon – Puritan Publications

.
Here's hoping that made you feel better.
 
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AdamjEdgar

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Do we judge God's Word based on how it makes us feel?


The New Covenant: Bob George



.
in the first 3 minutes of that video...sorry but this guy is wrong!
The new covenant line that he uses i think has a problem...what about people who are saved prior to JEsus time? Were they not also saved by faith?

The new covenant is not about this.

The New Covenant is about God writing his laws in our minds and on our hearts.

We have always been saved the exact same way...through the blood of Christ. This was foretold to Abram by God, it was foretold to Adam and Eve...it is nothing new!

Every person who has every lived has always been saved by the Blood of Christ (if they choose)...that was the entire point of the prophecy given to Adam and Eve!
 
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Blade

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Anyone who impregnates a woman without her freewill is called a rapist, which doesn't sound like the God of the bible, but then I'm not a Calvinist.

Hi your comment... wow the person said "Does an infant who is adopted choose his parents?". Lets make this real.. my mom had to give up 2 girls. "ALL" was done by her freewill. Your comment was uncalled for :)
 
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Blade

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"Predestination is never, ever, ever, that of lost man unto salvation."

Hello :) Not sure but maybe this is not the best way to start a chat or debate :) Then posting a video of some person from youtube.. I have no clue who that guy is. Why is what he said "the truth"? His word is no better than any one else here. So you agree with him or that video is you.

I do remember many years ago someone on youtube they had there own group, church and would talk about predestination and how they were the chosen ones "predestined". I never could understand how they KNEW they were saved/predestined other Christians were not. :)

I can see it and understand how some can think like this praise God. If I WAS chosen before the world was.. no one told me. I still believe I had a choice. Even young I asked him how can you send all these people to (Forgive me Father) hell. One of those RARE times He came right back with "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice".

I tend to believe that. Pre or not.. do you know Jesus/Yeshua as lord? Thats what matters amen?
 
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Francis Drake

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Hi your comment... wow the person said "Does an infant who is adopted choose his parents?". Lets make this real.. my mom had to give up 2 girls. "ALL" was done by her freewill. Your comment was uncalled for :)

In order for new life to come forth, there first has to be impregnation.
If received willingly, then it is legitimate.
If impregnation is done without consent, it is called rape.

We, our unregenerate man, brings forth new birth when impregnated by the Spirit.
If that is done without our consent, then it makes God a rapist.

1Jn3v9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The Greek word translated as "seed" here is 'sperma' which proves we are his actual sons with God's spiritual DNA in us, and not simply adopted from some strange family.

Our spirit is reborn because we opened out hearts to be impregnated by the Spirit of God. That's why Romans states categorically that there is no excuse for those who refuse.
 
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Mark Quayle

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In order for new life to come forth, there first has to be impregnation.
If received willingly, then it is legitimate.
If impregnation is done without consent, it is called rape.

We, our unregenerate man, brings forth new birth when impregnated by the Spirit.
If that is done without our consent, then it makes God a rapist.

Hardly:
1. It is anthropomorphism to judge God based on human precepts. He is not us, nor even like us. It is we who are like him, however poorly it be so.
2. God has the absolute right to do as he wishes with his creation.
3. They are fools who consider that equivalent with rape. They may as well complain that he was raping them to create them without their consent.
4. You make actual rape appear less heinous with this claim.
5. Your claim of impregnation by the Spirit is bogus. This was done ONCE, in the virgin Mary, (who, by the way, contrary to claims of many DID give consent.) If you mean, 'indwelling', it is not impregnation. You are being imprecise with your words, to bad effect.
6. You come up with this narrative and claim by human reasoning, and poorly done at that! Can you show from Scripture, this notion that God must impregnate us to produce regeneration?
7. What do you do with the notion in Scripture that we are adopted?
 
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Navair2

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Does a groom choose his bride?
Yes, He does.
Just as God the Father chose Christ's "bride" ( John 17:2 )...

Every individual in that body was chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the word ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
 
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Navair2

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In order for new life to come forth, there first has to be impregnation.
If received willingly, then it is legitimate.
If impregnation is done without consent, it is called rape.

We, our unregenerate man, brings forth new birth when impregnated by the Spirit.
If that is done without our consent, then it makes God a rapist.
Respectfully, I've heard that accusation many times before...

"God is a spiritual rapist by saving people / "forcing" people to be saved without their consent."

Usually it comes from those who think that He doesn't have the right to do such things...
When He clearly does.
In fact, He doesn't have to explain anything that He does to us or for us, unless He wants to.
Please read Daniel 4:35 and many others like it, especially in the Psalms as well as the book of Job.


He does what He wants to do, regardless of whether we like it or not.
 
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Navair2

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Having said that, it occurs to me that there's the other side of the whole thing...

It quite frankly amazes me that so many professing Christians object so strongly to the Lord saving people irrespective of their say-so, when they are the ones who benefit from it.
He sought them and found them, all the while they were not looking for it;
and they object to being found in His favor, when others are not going to be afforded the opportunity.


Yes, I admit that having to swallow the fact that God chose me to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) and set me apart for Himself, all the while not choosing many of the people that I love in this world and want to be saved... and instead reserves them, justly, to everlasting punishment for their willfully committed sins...can make for a lot of grief, and has indeed done so.

But would I not, despite the circumstances, rather glorify Him for choosing me?
After all, my own relationship with God is not a family affair.
It's me, myself and I standing before God, answering for my sins that would get me sent to the Lake of Fire but for His grace.


That's is why to me,
A clear conscience and a clear record before God is worth more than any family relationship, and I would rather embrace the fact that He has chosen me, when He didn't have to.

That He bothered with me at all tells me that He loves me, just as His word says.
 
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Mark Quayle

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"Predestination is never, ever, ever, that of lost man unto salvation."

Hello :) Not sure but maybe this is not the best way to start a chat or debate :) Then posting a video of some person from youtube.. I have no clue who that guy is. Why is what he said "the truth"? His word is no better than any one else here. So you agree with him or that video is you.

I do remember many years ago someone on youtube they had there own group, church and would talk about predestination and how they were the chosen ones "predestined". I never could understand how they KNEW they were saved/predestined other Christians were not. :)

I can see it and understand how some can think like this praise God. If I WAS chosen before the world was.. no one told me. I still believe I had a choice. Even young I asked him how can you send all these people to (Forgive me Father) hell. One of those RARE times He came right back with "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice".

I tend to believe that. Pre or not.. do you know Jesus/Yeshua as lord? Thats what matters amen?
Who is saying we don't get to choose?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Yes, He does.
Just as God the Father chose Christ's "bride" ( John 17:2 )...

Every individual in that body was chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the word ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
Does the bride have NO CHOICE?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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"Predestination is never, ever, ever, that of lost man unto salvation."

Hello :) Not sure but maybe this is not the best way to start a chat or debate :) Then posting a video of some person from youtube.. I have no clue who that guy is. Why is what he said "the truth"? His word is no better than any one else here. So you agree with him or that video is you.

I do remember many years ago someone on youtube they had there own group, church and would talk about predestination and how they were the chosen ones "predestined". I never could understand how they KNEW they were saved/predestined other Christians were not. :)

I can see it and understand how some can think like this praise God. If I WAS chosen before the world was.. no one told me. I still believe I had a choice. Even young I asked him how can you send all these people to (Forgive me Father) hell. One of those RARE times He came right back with "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice".

I tend to believe that. Pre or not.. do you know Jesus/Yeshua as lord? Thats what matters amen?
The calvinists (predestination bunch) embrace that theology because it gives them assurance that they personally are going to Heaven no matter what they do. I haven’t met a person who embraced the theology assuming they were predestined for hell and cannot miss. The theology has deep personal appeal even if it accuses God of evil. They don’t care.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Does the bride have NO CHOICE?
This is amazing. Over and over I say, and demonstrate, that Calvinism does not teach 'no choice'. The Bride has choice. I said no different.

Again, it is you who mistakenly conclude 'no choice' from what Calvinism teaches.
 
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Navair2

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Does the bride have NO CHOICE?
Not really, but I think that that that needs to be explained further.
The bride was chosen by His Father and given to Him ( Isaiah 8:18, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:13-24, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
All of God's elect are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

All of God's people also find out that they are saved "after the fact"...
That it was given to them to believe, by God, in the behalf of Christ their Saviour ( Philippians 1:29 ).

As for their being any choice in the matter?
To me that depends upon the viewpoint...

According to the Scriptures, God changes the heart first ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) before we willingly listen to and believe His words, and we as believers then willingly come to trust Him and gradually grow in our understanding of those words.

Do I believe that I personally had a choice in the matter of my own salvation?
No...
and I also believe that given the choice of choosing Him ( which I believe that men and women are given every single second of every day that they are alive, see Romans 2:4 ),
I would have rejected Him out-of-hand due to my love for sin and hatred of Him for commanding me to forsake those sins.
Why?
Because I didn't care enough about Him to seek Him at all, and His word tells me that I was dead in my own trespasses and sins and my will was biased against Him anyway ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:1-7, Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

In other words,
Were it not for His love for me and His acting upon my hardened heart to draw me to Himself, I would have never loved Him back ( 1 John 4:19 ).


In the end,
The Bride's choice, when her eyes are finally opened, is to choose the Bridegroom that had formerly been rejected, and now see as being her only reason for living. :)
 
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Navair2

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The calvinists (predestination bunch) embrace that theology because it gives them assurance that they personally are going to Heaven no matter what they do.
Personally speaking, I embraced biblical election because I see it in the Scriptures for myself.
I don't subscribe to systematic theologies, I don't get my understanding from "Reformed" authors, nor do I follow men like John Calvin, John Wesley or John R. Rice.

I didn't come to it by listening to "Calvinistic" speakers, reading their literature, or being persuaded by their sermons...
I came to it strictly on my own over many years of study.
 
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Navair2

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I haven’t met a person who embraced the theology assuming they were predestined for hell and cannot miss.
Neither have I...
But I have believed that I myself was bound for Hell a time or two since the Lord called me by His grace, and I was terrified.

He has since shown me that because He chose me, the foundation that I had built my house on was not one of sand, but one of being built on the Rock of His Son and His work on the cross for me.
 
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Navair2

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The theology has deep personal appeal even if it accuses God of evil. They don’t care.
[Comment retracted. Reason: Acts of the Apostles 24:16 ]
 
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