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Nope! And your point is? What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:46? Did He say death? Is the second death the same as "death" in any other context?And yet here you are contradicting yourself. He calls the LOF the second death but you don't think he meant death.
You stated when he said death he meant it. And so I stated that was a contradiction on your beliefs because obviously you don't believe he meant it when he called the LOF the second death. You believe it is eternal life -just in another place.Nope! And your point is?
Can you show me one vs. where anyone/anything was thrown into the LOF then they/it dies?You stated when he said death he meant it. And so I stated that was a contradiction on your beliefs because obviously you don't believe he meant it when he called the LOF the second death. You believe it is eternal life -just in another place.
I on the other hand believe Christ when he calls it the second death.
Of course it doesn't. He means death every time including the 3 times he mentions the "second death". You choose not to believe him in those three instances while I do believe he means death.So, the one-time Jesus mentions the LOF is the second death does not negate the 18 times He said death and meant death.
The LOF comes at the final Judgement Day. The rich man is on one side of the gulf at this point. There's a difference. Is he suffereing, yes. Has he been thrown into the LOF yet? No.According to Luke 16:25-26 the rich man died but in hades he had some kind of conscious existence and it wasn't pleasant.
Yes, when Christ calls it the second "death" that means death. The very definition of death means to die. We have to apply some common sense here.Can you show me one vs. where anyone/anything was thrown into the LOF then they/it dies?
Meanwhile we will just ignore Revelation 20:10. If the LOF meant instant death why didn't the devil. the beast and the false prophet die? Instead of dying those three are all alone being tormented day and night for ever and ever.Of course it doesn't. He means death every time including the 3 times he mentions the "second death". You choose not to believe him in those three instances while I do believe he means death.
The LOF comes at the final Judgement Day. The rich man is on one side of the gulf at this point. There's a difference. Is he suffereing, yes. Has he been thrown into the LOF yet? No.
Yes, when Christ calls it the second "death" that means death. The very definition of death means to die. We have to apply some common sense here.
Even Satan will be turned to ashes from within. That was prophesized in Ez 28. Not sure if that's instant with him or not but it is prophesized and we are told once again that the former things will be no more. The LOF is a former thing. If someone wants to believe it will be included in the new heaven and earth that's their choice. And is someone doesn't want to believe Christ when he states the LOF is death, the second death, that's their choice as well.If the LOF meant instant death why didn't the devil
The one in Ezek 28 is "the anointed cherub that covereth." If one reads only Ezekiel they might conclude that is Satan. But Rev 20:10 disproves that.Even Satan will be turned to ashes from within. That was prophesized in Ez 28. Not sure if that's instant with him or not but it is prophesized and we are told once again that the former things will be no more. The LOF is a former thing. If someone wants to believe it will be included in the new heaven and earth that's their choice. And is someone doesn't want to believe Christ when he states the LOF is death, the second death, that's their choice as well.
As I have already explained, the state of non-existence is torment. When Revelation speaks of being tormented forever, it refers to death. They are tormented by not existing forever. This is a plausible interpretation. You don't have to accept this interpretation, but you can at least understand it.Meanwhile we will just ignore Revelation 20:10. If the LOF meant instant death why didn't the devil. the beast and the false prophet die? Instead of dying those three are all alone being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Remember we got here because you assumed that when Jesus said, "Eternal punishment" He actually meant "eternal death."
God told Adam in the day that he ate of the tree of knowledge he would surely die but he didn't. God banished him from the garden. Gen 3:24.As I have already explained, the state of non-existence is torment. When Revelation speaks of being tormented forever, it refers to death. They are tormented by not existing forever. This is a plausible interpretation. You don't have to accept this interpretation, but you can at least understand it.
You are a Baptist, most Baptists I know know the Bible, so I think you know that the Bible and especially Revelation is full of metaphors. There is nothing left for you but to refute the interpretation I have given you. Pretending not to understand it does not get us anywhere.
I have a question for you. When Adam sinned, God said to him that he will return to the dust, he said, from the dust you became, to the dust you will return. In other words, he said, from nothing you came, to nothing you will return. Why didn't God mention the hell you believe in? The Old Testament makes it clear that hell is death. In the New Testament, I must admit that there are a few verses that seem to represent the traditional view of hell, but you cannot take those few verses and ignore everything else, especially because those few verses belong either to parables or symbolic books like Revelation.
When Adam was banished from the garden, he was separated from God and thus from life. Dying is a process, and aging is a part of that process. Adam began to age and later died.God told Adam in the day that he ate of the tree of knowledge he would surely die but he didn't. God banished him from the garden. Gen 3:24.
Jews also do not believe in the Trinity and the crucifixion although both are found in the Old Testament. Why should I care what they think?Someone who does not exist cannot experience/feel anything not even torment. You will have to ask God why He didn't mention hell in the OT. But the Jews are certain He did.
The Jews did not believe that "hell was death" in the O.T. Among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment and they called it both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" written in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T. as "hades" and Gehenna.". You can read all about it at this link to the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia
God did not say the process of dying would start. He said "in the day you eat of the fruit you will surely die." What the Jews did not believe is not relevant. IIRC Jesus and His disciples were Jews, as were most of the early converts. They would have known about the then current Jewish belief in Hell. Neither Jesus nor His disciples taught anything contrary to the Jewish belief in hell.When Adam was banished from the garden, he was separated from God and thus from life. Dying is a process, and aging is a part of that process. Adam began to age and later died.
Jews also do not believe in the Trinity and the crucifixion although both are found in the Old Testament. Why should I care what they think?
The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life.
Only the Book of Revelation speaks of a place of eternal torment. However, one cannot take the Book of Revelation, which is probably the most symbolic book, and ignore all other books where annihilationism is taught. The book of Revelation is full of metaphors and such passages should not be understood literally.
Jesus' words when he said, "Where the fire does not go out and their worm does not die" is also often used as evidence of eternal torment, although Jesus does not use the word torture here. However, these words of Jesus are easy to explain. What Jesus wanted to make clear with these words is that eternal death is a state that will never end.
The eternal death, or otherwise called the second death is the final punishment. The people who are thrown into the lake of fire will literally be burned into non-existence, like a piece of paper thrown into a fire. Revelation 21:8
This subject intrigues me because the words used in the original Hebrew and Greek are not as limited as the English translation. I was looking at a site that went into depth about this not so long ago, but cannot remember what it was called. Perhaps I will add later if I do find it.The well-known view of hell is that it is a place where people are tortured with full consciousness. But this view is biblically wrong and is the fatal consequence of wrong interpretation. The Bible makes it clear from the very beginning that hell is nothing other than eternal death. Eternal death means that one no longer exists and will never return to life.
Only the Book of Revelation speaks of a place of eternal torment. However, one cannot take the Book of Revelation, which is probably the most symbolic book, and ignore all other books where annihilationism is taught. The book of Revelation is full of metaphors and such passages should not be understood literally.
Jesus' words when he said, "Where the fire does not go out and their worm does not die" is also often used as evidence of eternal torment, although Jesus does not use the word torture here. However, these words of Jesus are easy to explain. What Jesus wanted to make clear with these words is that eternal death is a state that will never end.
The eternal death, or otherwise called the second death is the final punishment. The people who are thrown into the lake of fire will literally be burned into non-existence, like a piece of paper thrown into a fire. Revelation 21:8
Somehow God becomes less than omniscient? Or only tight-lipped?The most significant thing about the second death is those who experience it have no further ability to be resurrected, no record of their previous existence is available.
Somehow God becomes less than omniscient? Or only tight-lipped?
Not to mention less than omnipotent? Unable to raise the dead?
What's wrong with this picture?
What's wrong with this picture? It is a strawman argument with no basis in reality. Nobody has claimed or implied that God is less than omniscient or omnipotent. Unable to raise the dead. etc.Saint Steven said:Somehow God becomes less omniscient? Or only tight-lipped?
Not to mention less omnipotent? Unable to raise the dead?
What's wrong with this picture?
The word "hell" is perfectly acceptable. That there might have been a similar word somewhere that meant something else is irrelevant. The only people who believe this false narrative hang out in forums like this. When the average person tells someone to go to h*** they are not talking about a hole in the ground where foodstuffs were stored.The most significant thing about the second death is those who experience it have no further ability to be resurrected, no record of their previous existence is available.
The Word Hell is the translators choice; a translation would be Grave. In the old days in England a hell was a hole in the ground requiring only one dimension, a depth of six foot, and was used for cold storage, for things like meat, butter and potatoes; and of course this size hole was also used for graves. Most references to fire and brimstone refer metaphorically to Sodom and Gomorrah that was destroyed by volcano.
Sheol is the realm of the dead. The prophets were there. Are you implying that they were tortured there?The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal fiery punishment, they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom,
I am not implying anything. I made statements of fact. What you think "sheol" and/or "Gehinnom" means is not relevant. I linked to the Gehenna article in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia which records the historic beliefs of the Jews about "Gehenna" which the Jews equated with "Hell." This belief in "Hell" extends back at least as far as 700BC. Now I say all this because Jesus and His disciples were Jews and would have known about that belief in hell. What Jesus taught about the fate of the unrighteous did not refute that belief but supported it.Sheol is the realm of the dead. The prophets were there. Are you implying that they were tortured there?
Gehinnom, as far as I know, was a garbage dump where a constant fire burned. The fire burned the garbage. Jesus used Gehinnom as a parable. Just as the fire burned the garbage, the lake of fire will burn the unbelievers and the devil. They will be extinguished like the garbage.
There was never a burning garbage dump in the valley of Ge Hinnom/GeHenna. There was a garbage dump in a valley outside Jerusalem but it was not in Gehenna it was in the next valley over the Kidron valley.Sheol is the realm of the dead. The prophets were there. Are you implying that they were tortured there?
Gehinnom, as far as I know, was a garbage dump where a constant fire burned. The fire burned the garbage. Jesus used Gehinnom as a parable. Just as the fire burned the garbage, the lake of fire will burn the unbelievers and the devil. They will be extinguished like the garbage.
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