• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured There are Two Different Creation Accounts

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by jhwatts, Aug 4, 2017.

  1. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

    309
    +49
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    It sounds crazy but there are two physical creations. I've spent a lot of time studying this and have written a book that is ready to be published. What I'm going to show on this forum is only a small piece of a bigger picture. I'm really looking for peoples perspective and wanting peoples thoughts on how it impacts Christ purpose for mankind.

    I will begin by asking that people interested first read Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1 and ask yourself what is wrong with this picture? In short, the end of Genesis 10 has people on earth with different languages while the beginning of Genesis 11 shows them all having the same language.

    The reason that this is the case is because they are out of chronological order. Most scholars will tell you not all events are ordered in chronological order in the Bible and many of the books themselves are out of chronological order.

    The reason for me showing this is to demonstrate that chronological order is not always the case in the book of Genesis.

    Now the reader should now go to Genesis 1:1 and and read then skip to Genesis 2:4 and read. The reader should notice the language in 2:4 and realize that the story and the chronology of “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created” begins now. This chronology begins in 2:4 and goes to the end of Genesis 4.

    Also realize that the chronology of the “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created” took place before Genesis 1:2. or more specifically Genesis 1:1.

    The reader should now read Genesis 5:1. This now begins the chronology of the “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him” or more clearly the generations of Adam that are in that day.

    If we now travel back to Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 1:27 we see that the chronology of events described in Genesis 5 corresponds to this description of events. This collection of events transpires from Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.

    Also the reader should notice that the Adam of “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him” was instructed to replenish the earth Genesis 1:28. This is the same thing God told Noah Genesis 9:1. The Adam of the “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created” was destroyed by the deep in Genesis 1:2. Yes I am claiming a second world flood.

    This also explains the generational differences between those described in Genesis 4 and those in Genesis 5. An example is that Enoch is second from Adam in “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created” and sixth from Adam in the generations of the “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him”

    These difference are because these are two totally different events.

    There is a time difference between both collections of generational chronologies.

    Also note a day is not 24 hours. This can be seen from Genesis 5. The verse appears to mean all of the generations that occurred took place in the “day God created man, in the likeness of God made him”. All these generation took place over many years not a single day.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    +611
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I agree that there might be something hidden there for sure. But, in Genesis, Exodus - and in the original hebrew - after taking the first "T" in hebrew, counting 50 letters, then you come across an "O" and continue again counting 50 you come across an "R". 50 Letters later you come to an "H" or Torah

    It does this all throughout Genesis, and Exodus, as well as Numbers and Deuteronomy. It doesn't do it through Leviticus however. But, if you start from the first Yod or Y, in the Hebrew. Count 7, you come to an H. Count 7, you come to a W/V. Count 7, you come to an H. It's the tetragrammaton. It does this all throughout the entire book of Leviticus.

    What's my point? I don't believe that the first 5 books of the bible are out of order, because this wouldn't be a possibility. I think the rest of the books have possibilities to be out of order, but not the Torah. I definitely do believe there could be something hidden there however. The fact that it says they have different languages, and then right at the next chapter they all spoke the same is definitely odd for sure. Like I said, somethings are for sure hidden.
     
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +5,412
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others

    Instead, I'd write a book on a topic that is in high demand.
    I'll find you such a topic if you wish to reach multiple people.
     
  4. KWCrazy

    KWCrazy Newbie

    +1,967
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Since it's all nonsense, I doubt your book will sell, but good luck.
     
  5. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

    309
    +49
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I am really interested in why you perceive this as nonsense and I would like to here your Biblical refute or you provide a defense for your position.
     
  6. Papias

    Papias Listening to TW4

    +964
    Catholic
    Married
    Rrrriiiiiigggghhhhtttt...... Sounds made up. Do you have a source showing that? Or should we just take the word of some random person on the internet for it?

    ***********************

    OK, I looked into it a little bit. Claims like this are all over the place, but there are some problems. First of all, the text of the torah is quite variable, just like our New Testament - there are many different various versions, and they don't agree letter for letter. As you probably know, there are more differences in our oldest New Testament manuscripts as there are words in the whole new testament.

    Looking at the "Bible Code", it turns out that your statement is false. If you pick some versions, you can get your "TORAH" once, if the pick a starting point and a number of letters to count. of course, those are completely arbitrary, allowing someone to just keep trying different starting points and numbers until it works. Even with that, it doesn't repeat over and over through Genesis or any other book.

    This method of arbitrarily picking numbers until some nice sounding word like "TORAH" or "YHWH" or whatever comes up, works with other texts too. For instance, here is an example of doing the same thing using the novel "War and Peace" instead. Using their method, you can also find "TORAH" and such in the novel "War and Peace" - because the method is so arbitrary as to be able find words in random noise. The problem with leaning on this as some kind of divine evidence is that then someone will do the same thing with the Qu'ran or the Tao T Ching, and we'll be stuck with having to admit Islam is from Jesus or something.

    http://torahcode.co.il/pdf_files/pub/har2.pdf

    Papias
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  7. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    +611
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    It's not made up. Nor are the intervals random. They are biblically holy numbers that are (throughout scripture) consistently used to represent holy things. 7 when used to show God's name, and 49 (7x7 not counting the letter you're on).

    Super Computers Discover Mathematically Coded Words in the Bible
     
  8. KWCrazy

    KWCrazy Newbie

    +1,967
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
     
  9. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

    +3,212
    Deist
    US-Libertarian
    The validity of this method depends on the idea that all the LETTERS were given by God and that from Sinai to the Masoretic text in 1000 AD none of the letters have been miscopied, dropped, or added by copyists.

    The oldest complete manuscript of the OT are the Aleppo Codex, dating to the tenth century AD.
     
  10. Papias

    Papias Listening to TW4

    +964
    Catholic
    Married
    Which is why it works for other texts,like "War and Peace"?

    Did you not bother to even read your own link? It has:

    The conclusions of Dr Price's research should end any further research, books, movies, t.v. shows and articles... into the ELS phenomenon. God did not hide ELS codes in the Bible. The ELS codes do not prove divine authorship of the Hebrew Bible. This phenomenon will occur in all texts and all literature. It is just a strange random phenomenon.

    That's from your own link.

    Did you not see that you were wrong about it repeating every 50 letters, over and over?

    In Christ-

    Papias
     
  11. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    +611
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    It's 50, counting the letter you'd be on. But when you count, you'd ignore the letter you're on, making it 49. Like playing a board game - if you roll a 6, you don't count the space you're on, you start counting the second you move to the next place. It's either 50, or 49, depending on how and when you decide to count it. But, generally you don't count that which you're already on.

    It might be a natural phenomenon in ordinary books, but for it to do it, with the SAME exactly 50/49 numbered interval in Genesis, and Exodus going forward, then backwards with 50/49 in Numbers and Deuteronomy, and then with the TORH facing the book of Leviticus forwards and backwards and then we find YHWH (the name God gave us to call him forever - the tetragrammaton) every 7 in Leviticus? There's no way that it happening in this manner is a coincidence. It might happen once or twice in other books, cool, but for it to happen in 4 books, that many times, with the same exact number, and for it to happen in leviticus as the square root of the interval used? No. They can shout coincidence all day long, but there's no way.
     
  12. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

    309
    +49
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    This is in response to KWCrazy. Please see below.


    I will begin by asking that people interested first read
    Genesis 10:31 and then read Genesis 11:1 and ask yourself what is wrong with this picture? In short, the end of Genesis 10 has people on earth with different languages while the beginning of Genesis 11 shows them all having the same language.

    Genesis 10 says, "These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations." Genesis 11 describes how these tongues became different and how they diversified throughout the world. There is no discrepancy. Obviously, all eight people on the ark spoke the same language so their descendants would too, until their languages were scrambled by God. It is written as a historical event many years later, so the separation by clan and then by languages makes sense to have been added. The reason that this is the case is because they are out of chronological order.
    It's not written chronologically. Verse 11 describes how they came to have difference tongues when they had all spoke one language earlier.
    Most scholars will tell you not all events are ordered in chronological order in the Bible and many of the books themselves are out of chronological order. That's true. Job is older than Genesis, but the EVENTS in Genesis pre-dated Job. It wasn't all recorded in real time.
    The reader should notice the language in 2:4 and realize that the story and the chronology of “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created” begins now. This chronology begins in 2:4 and goes to the end of
    Genesis 4.
    Not even close. Genesis one describes the creation of the world. (You mean the heavens and the earth.)
    Genesis two begins by stating that everything was complete and then goes into detail of the creation of man, which happened on day six. (Speculation and your personal interpretation and also with no Biblical basis. At least my chronological assumptions state the periods taken place. For example, “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created”. )
    It tells how God planted the garden of Eden and then put Adam there. Where was Adam before? Virginia? No, Adam was put into Eden when he was formed. (Exactly, Genesis 2:8, He formed him before he had made Eden then placed him there.) Genesis two deals only with the sixth day of creation. (Speculation and your personal interpretation and also with no Biblical basis.)
    The reader should now read
    Genesis 5:1. This now begins the chronology of the “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him” or more clearly the generations of Adam that are in that day.
    No, sorry. It says, "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him..."
    It's already been established that God made Adam on day 6.
    Genesis 5 is about the genealogy from Adam to Noah. (Again, your perception of scripture with no baisis. )
    Also the reader should notice that the Adam of “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him” was instructed to replenish the earth
    Genesis 1:28 and Genesis 9:1. This is the same thing God told Noah.
    Yes, because Adam was the first man standing and after the flood Noah and his family were the last ones standing.(More speculation based on your interpretation. )
    Yes I am claiming a second world flood.
    And you wonder why I said it was nonsense?
    (There are two floods and I can demonstrate from scripture. This is an entire discussion in itself.
    The waters from first flood was removed instantly while Noah's flood took several days.
    Psalm 104(5-7) and Genesis 8:2-3) )
    An example is that Enoch is second from Adam in “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created” and sixth from Adam in the generations of the “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him”
    Or it could be that the first was Enos and the second was Enoch.(Assumptions, Visit 1 Chronicles 1:1 the generations of the “day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him” are the ones listed. This makes sense, according to my interpretation those names would correspond to the survivors and not the ones removed by the deep (the “generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created”).
    Also note a day is not 24 hours. This can be seen from
    Genesis 5. No, "in the day" or "in the days" does not mean a single day, but references a time period.
    "The evening and the morning were the third day" represents a specific day.(More assumptions, ) We still use those phrases today. (I dont.) "In days of old when knights were bold," or "Memorial Day is in 30 days."

     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  13. Papias

    Papias Listening to TW4

    +964
    Catholic
    Married
    Did you or did you not read your own link which said that this method is so arbitrary as to detected anything in any text?

    It's not as simple as you said - it's done by taking different versions, with different spellings, finding any pattern that seems interesting to humans. That's why it does't repeat TORAH over and over, as you falsely claimed. Do you or do you not recognize that it simply doesn't do what you claimed?

    As far as the number "50" being "sacred", most numbers can be said to be "sacred". For instance:

    1 = one god
    2 = heaven vs hell
    3 = the trinity
    4 = gospels
    5=gospels + acts (or Pentateuch)
    6= trinity acting on earth + trinity in heaven
    7= god's perfect number
    8=god's perfect number + 1 god
    9=Pentateuch + gospels
    10 lost tribes of israel
    11 the 12 tribes not counting that one tribe that fell away
    12 tribes (or 12 disciples)
    13 apostles
    14 = 2X god's perfect number

    And so on and on.
     
  14. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

    +611
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    The reason that doesn't matter, is because if you research into this phenomenon, yes, it happens in almost all writings. BUT, it's always random, and irrelevant to the text at hand. For that to happen in the beginning of each of the 5 books, and say the same thing according to numbers of spiritual significance. No. Not only that, but it happens way more throughout the bible. What makes this occurrence different than normal books? Because, in normal books, the findings are always random, and have nothing to do with the book, or any of the text surrounding it.

    There have been findings throughout the years in the bible, that aren't random. They have things to do with not only the bible, but the verses they're in. That doesn't happen in other books. You might find random words that seem as if they say something in normal writings, but the bible has an example that literally in the OT, says Jesus's hebrew name and what he is to us. Before the identity of Christ had even been made known. Several other things like this happen throughout the scripture.

    I was wrong, in that it doesn't repeatedly happen throughout the Torah, it only happens once. But, for it to be the same 49 letter interval, 4 times, then in the middle have it be the tetragrammaton, AND have the TORH point directly towards God on either side. No. There's no way that's coincidence. It's not 50 by the way, it's 49. If you count the letter you're on, it's 50, but if you count the letters out from the letter you're on, it's 49. Really, we could both be wrong, or we could both be right. Just depends how you want to count I suppose. I do apologize for being wrong about it saying TORH all throughout the entire books of Gen, Ex, Num, and Deut. After I dug deeper into it, I misunderstood and thought they meant repeatedly. Not just that one time. That's, a bit less awesome, but nonetheless, God is still good either way haha.
     
  15. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

    +1,178
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I think what is happening is that there are 3 different books spanning this content and the inserted chapters have divided them poorly. Even more problematic is the fact that the "opening of the book" appears to be at the end rather than the beginning. Here is how I would divide them

    Book 1.
    Opening: Genesis 2:4
    Body:Genesis 1 to Genesis 2:4
    This book is distinct in it's use of Elohim rather than Yahweh.

    Book 2.
    Opening: Genesis 5:1-2
    Body Genesis 2:5 to Genesis 5:2
    This book is distinct in it's use of Yahweh rather than Elohim exclusively, and it's use of the definite article in regards to "Adam". In this book "Adam" is not a proper name but refers to humans. It is written grammatically "the Adam".

    Book 3
    Beginning with Genesis 5:3 Adam becomes a proper name for the first time in Genesis giving the indication that a new book is being added.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,676
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Just for starters, I will take exception to this for the following reasons:


    19. The yom problem
    — Yom; The Biggest Biblical Creation Theory Obstacle —
    The word yom
    The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in Genesis 1.
    The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
    The solution lies in the rule we've established four chapters ago:
    Hold that thought (11)
    In Hebrew Scriptures, and all models derived thereof, entities are reckoned solely after their behavior and not after their appearance. An entity is a behavior, not that which executes the behavior.
    To define something, the Hebrew language does not look at outer parameters but always at the action that needs to be named. The time-length of a yom is an outer parameter and not regarded in Hebrew. Since time and space are the four dimensions of space-time, and we measure sizes in the spatial dimensions with a ruler, a clock is a ruler for time. An hour is a 'distance' just like a mile.
    A yom is not defined as something that is 24 hours long, but something that executes the action that defines a yom. Strictly spoken, a yom does not even have to have a length, as long as it executes the typical behavior that defines it. Forcing a static 24-hour mold upon the word yom may appear quite pious but flies flat in the face of the Second Commandment.
    A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part. During the dark part of a regular day people sleep and are disconnected. During the light part they communicate and work together. Any other manifestation of yom should display the same kind of darkness (elements not connected) and lightness (elements connected).
    The yom problem in addressing Genesis 1
    Genesis 2:17
    but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
    bê'yom בְּיוֹם (day)
    Genesis 1:5
    and Elohiym called out to the light,day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, day one,
    yom
    יוֹם (day)
    The word for day in each of the creation days in the original Hebrew is written differently than the word day for when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree. Translation is stating that difference, interpretation is saying it means the same thing--which it obviously doesn't-one means an evening morning time period, the other means a period of time which can be days, months, years or longer.
    Mechanical Translation
     
  17. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

    309
    +49
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I really feel the order is correct. I can verify other places in scripture. A simple example is here.

    I Corinthians 5:44-49 (ESV)
    45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being";the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, (Genesis 2:7) a man of dust; the second man is from heaven (Genesis 1:27). 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven,so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

    The order of the Adams I proposed corresponds to the above correctly.

    This goes further. We can look at the line of Christ in Luke 3 and see that he was taken from the man made in the likeness of God and not of the man from the dust of the earth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  18. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,676
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    The first Adam is Adam--the 2nd Adam is referring to Christ. He is the spiritual Adam.
     
  19. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

    309
    +49
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I would probably disagree, as that is assumed. Look at verse 48.

    I Corinthians 5:48 (ESV) 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven,so also are those who are of heaven.

    We can see that the intent here is to show that they are "those who are of dust" and "those who are of heaven". If the context was intended to be Christ only and man kind only then we must assume there are many men from dust and many Christ from heaven. There is only one Christ and therefore the text is intended to mean something different .
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,676
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    Absolutely disagree---"and as is the man of heaven":---there is only one man that can be said to be of heaven---Jesus. Adam never was, he was completely earthly.
     
Loading...