There’s a movement to undermine Catholic morality

[LivingWordUnity]

There’s a movement to undermine Catholic morality – Communion is just the start

Modern-day Pharisees are trying to get round the Church's teaching on objective right and wrong. Their next target? Humanae Vitae

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Source:
Catholic Herald - 5 Jan 2018

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

its an interesting article and I agree moral relativism is a enemy of truth. When I considered the levels of teaching presented over time I cannot understand how a body of supposedly celibate men in fancy robes can make authoritative choices on marriage in that the scriptural requirements for bishops and elders is to be the husband of one wife and have his family in order. This body making rules is a contradiction of what the Bible says about leadership. If the tradition contradicts the scriptures perhaps the tradition needs to be rethought. Paul did say it is better for a single man to remain single in one place but when you hear his testimony about being jailed, shipwrecked, scourged, beaten and stoned that is not a good environment to b ring a wife into. More over the Genesis statement on Adam it is not good for man to be alone is still the prime directive for most and should not be considered a barrier to serving the LORD in leadership of the church. Peter had a mother in law and the Levitical model were also married men. This may be a bit of a detour to the topic but is relevant in that it demonstrates how a clear teaching in scripture can be lost or contradicted later. The moral relativism path does much the same thing.

 

[chevyontheriver]

its an interesting article and I agree moral relativism is a enemy of truth. When I considered the levels of teaching presented over time I cannot understand how a body of supposedly celibate men in fancy robes can make authoritative choices on marriage in that the scriptural requirements for bishops and elders is to be the husband of one wife and have his family in order. This body making rules is a contradiction of what the Bible says about leadership. If the tradition contradicts the scriptures perhaps the tradition needs to be rethought. Paul did say it is better for a single man to remain single in one place but when you hear his testimony about being jailed, shipwrecked, scourged, beaten and stoned that is not a good environment to b ring a wife into. More over the Genesis statement on Adam it is not good for man to be alone is still the prime directive for most and should not be considered a barrier to serving the LORD in leadership of the church. Peter had a mother in law and the Levitical model were also married men. This may be a bit of a detour to the topic but is relevant in that it demonstrates how a clear teaching in scripture can be lost or contradicted later. The moral relativism path does much the same thing.

I think it was pretty bold of Jesus too, because he was a supposedly celibate man as well. He spoke a bit too much about marriage and divorce and the like considering he was not the husband of one wife. He didn't follow the Levitical model very well.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Source:
Catholic Herald - 5 Jan 2018

We shall see if Humanae Vitae is 'reinterpreted' into oblivion. I almost expect there to be another papal document this year that makes things clear as mud about contraception. Not looking forward to it at all.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

We shall see if Humanae Vitae is 'reinterpreted' into oblivion. I almost expect there to be another papal document this year that makes things clear as mud about contraception. Not looking forward to it at all.

There is now a pattern.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There is now a pattern.

There does seem to be one. Which is why I would not be surprised at all if there is a new document which claims to be an update of Humanae Vitae but has serious ambiguities in it that many people will use to justify the opposite of Catholic teaching on contraception. A few bishops conferences will latch onto it and unimplement Humanae Vitae. But, you know, it's not like they were terribly faithful up to now to the clear teaching of Humanae Vitae.

 

[Hank77]

I think it was pretty bold of Jesus too, because he was a supposedly celibate man as well. He spoke a bit too much about marriage and divorce and the like considering he was not the husband of one wife. He didn't follow the Levitical model very well.

Are you saying the bishops and priests have the same knowledge as the creator of marriage does?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are you saying the bishops and priests have the same knowledge as the creator of marriage does?

I am saying that bishops and priests can have some knowledge about marriage and should not be ruled out because they are celibate. If you want to rule them out because they are celibate you rule out Jesus and Paul as well. John Paul II knew quite a bit about marriage and sexuality even while he was a celibate man. Discard his witness at your own risk.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Priests know a lot about marriage from hearing the secret confessions of married people.

 

[Open Heart]

I would not be surprised at all if there is a new document which claims to be an update of Humanae Vitae but has serious ambiguities in it that many people will use to justify the opposite of Catholic teaching on contraception.

This post is not to be misconstrued as challenging Humanae Vitae. When I was married, we used NFP.

There surely will be a new encyclical "updating" Humanae Vitae. The original document was never infallible -- the Pope himself stated as much, which opens many of its ideas to revision.

For example, I predict it will be argued that it makes no sense for Catholics to use Natural Birth Control but not Artificial Birth Control if used for the same reasons.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I think it was pretty bold of Jesus too, because he was a supposedly celibate man as well. He spoke a bit too much about marriage and divorce and the like considering he was not the husband of one wife. He didn't follow the Levitical model very well.

He Jesus is the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek and he is the one who created man in Gods image and noted that it is not good for man to be alone. The scriptures about married men in leadership are important as all scripture is inspired by God. So when the requirements of Bishop and elder were given they are God breathed and now tradition contradicts these teachings. Jesus has authority to speak on marriage as a non married person as he is creator and his being celibate is not significant nor is it establishing that those who follow were to be either.

 

[Rhamiel]

and he is the one who created man in Gods image and noted that it is not good for man to be alone.

it is not good for man to be alone
but what man is alone?
in the context, God said this when there was literally only one human on the entire earth

The scriptures about married men in leadership are important as all scripture is inspired by God. So when the requirements of Bishop and elder were given they are God breathed and now tradition contradicts these teachings

it does not contradict the scripture
how many wives did Jacob have, how many did Solomon have?
at the time of Jesus how many Jewish leaders had divorced their wives and taken a second wife?
saying a "husband of one wife" is not saying only married men can be elders, it is saying that no one with MORE then one wife can be an elder

now there are married priests, in the Eastern Churches, but in the Latin Church it has been a long tradition to only have a celibate priests

Jesus has authority to speak on marriage as a non married person as he is creator and his being celibate is not significant nor is it establishing that those who follow were to be either.

and Bishops have the authority to speak on church discipline because Jesus Christ, who the King of Kings and Lord of all Creation, has given them the authority to bind and loose

 

[chevyontheriver]

He Jesus is the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek and he is the one who created man in Gods image and noted that it is not good for man to be alone. The scriptures about married men in leadership are important as all scripture is inspired by God. So when the requirements of Bishop and elder were given they are God breathed and now tradition contradicts these teachings. Jesus has authority to speak on marriage as a non married person as he is creator and his being celibate is not significant nor is it establishing that those who follow were to be either.

Was Paul being celibate insignificant as well? Should he have been banned from leadership? Was every apostle married? Point is that the requirement is for men who have not been married multiple times. No contradiction between Bible and tradition on this at all. Unless you can say Paul should not have been in any form of Christian leadership AND you can prove that all the apostles were married.

 

[Rhamiel]

Jesus, Paul and probably Peter were unmarried at the time of their ministries

(i say probably because the Bible talks about Peters mother in law but not his wife, leading some to assume he was a widower)

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

it is not good for man to be alone
but what man is alone?
in the context, God said this when there was literally only one human on the entire earth


it does not contradict the scripture
how many wives did Jacob have, how many did Solomon have?
at the time of Jesus how many Jewish leaders had divorced their wives and taken a second wife?
saying a "husband of one wife" is not saying only married men can be elders, it is saying that no one with MORE then one wife can be an elder

now there are married priests, in the Eastern Churches, but in the Latin Church it has been a long tradition to only have a celibate priests

and Bishops have the authority to speak on church discipline because Jesus Christ, who the King of Kings and Lord of all Creation, has given them the authority to bind and loose[/QUOTE
I did not say unmarried men cannot be bishops or elders what I am pointing out it the scriptures clearly indicate that married men can hold these offices and it would seem to be the norm. The Roman tradition now is unmarried men only. The struggles within the polygamous OT couples is recorded and their is not a single example of that working out. I agree with you in that regard and concur many divorced their wives unjustly and were disqualified for that.

 

[Open Heart]

saying a "husband of one wife" is not saying only married men can be elders, it is saying that no one with MORE then one wife can be an elder

Exactly

 

[Virgil the Roman]

God holds DIVINE Tradition and Holy Scripture as both being HIS DIVINE Revelation; this is the Catholic religion that knows that BOTH are the Word of God; as St Paul attests: "Hold fast to the TRADITIONS you have received from us, whether by WORD or EPISTLE."