Discussion Theological theory Vs Faith

[Alithis]

In your opinion.

I quoted Scripture, so maybe you thing Scripture is an excuse?
1 Corinthians 12:29-30.
Romans 12:6

Maybe you don't believe the concept of waiting on God to discover his will and his guidance. Maybe you think that presumption is fine; that God MUST want you to go out into the shopping centres and heal everyone. If that's what you believe, you must go for it.

But don't criticise or judge other Christians for not doing what YOU believe to be important.

Your using all the pat one off verses everyone who doesnt do gods will uses to excuse themselves...
The gift of healing come via the Holy spirit..
The same holy Spirit who is in all that have the holy spirit.
Your trying to say the description of the gifts
Cancel the words of JESUS ...
You didnt realise you were but thats what using single verses outof context often does.
Jesus said whatever you ask in his name he will do it
He said if you believe and do not doubt in your heart you shall speak to that tree ...
He said all thigs are possible to those that believe
He said theses signs shall follow those that believe...
Why those that believe? Because believing, like faith,Is proven by the action you take
Not by the theological theory you hold.
I believe The lord JESUS..
Im nit going to then say
Yes But....
The words that follow "yes But" are always excuse...

BUT.. lord i was afraid and i hid the talant in the earth
And the lord says you wicked and.lazy servant.. And what that person thought they had is taken off them .
Thats where yes but leads..

Oh people self excuse so much .. Not all have the gift of healing they say..
And ignore that the scripture then says to desire earnestly all the gifts...
Ask and you will recieve
Knock and the door will be opened
Whatever you ask the father in my name he will do it
Etc
Wait on God to know his will....???
Lord if you will you can make me clean ....
The lords answer " i will" ..he always wills.
He has shouted his will throught the scripture.
It is his will to save heal deliver set free bring life
A person cannot exercise the love of God outwardly to all peoples and Not be in Gods will .God is love.

People waiting in prayer to know his will om such a basic issue of the great commison ate really just closing their eyes tight so they wont see the written will of God in front of them ....
Where he says Go..... Go out go do it...

Cant guide a ship in harbour..but once it moves oh wow then you will know him guiding..
Because you cant obey b. until you obey a.
A =Go....


.

 

[Alithis]

Amen...
There is the concept that faith has corresponding actions. If you believe the bridge is out up ahead, then you will act according. You will not go speeding down the hill onto that bridge.
If you believe that Jesus died for your sins... your actions will reflect that faith.
If you hold these things as a mental concept only...then you may not act accordingly.

One of the sad things is that many people Do desire to have an active saving faith .. Active in that it is christ who saves,not faith .but he does so through faith.
I.e through the action one takes because they believe in him.
That of course begins with repentance.
But the ongoing out working of an obedient heart being transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit involves an ongoing action of obedience.
The lord therefore sent out into the body the main ministries to Equip the whole body to the whole work of the Gospel
And it is they who have too often instead usurped power taken control and equip people to sing songs and pay tithes and little more.guiding them into thier own secondary agenda out of line with Gods agenda.
They want to do the great commission but they dont know how ,are unequipped and remain unequipped the longer they are being trained for a different agenda.

The truth is , once a person has recieved the Holy Spirit ..they have been appointed( annointed) to the task.

How do we go heal the sick...?
How is it this most basic of commands by Jesus is such a mystery to so many who hold a theological theory about it ? (Mostly they hold a man made theology to excuse even trying it )
Sadly it is because those who claim to be the equippers..the teachers and evanglists and pastors etc ( though scriptures puts pastor /teacher as one) cannot equip someone with tools they dont themselves use .

How did uneducated non seminary types in the book of acts have such a powerful effect on thier world so that within 20 years they were turning the world upside down with the gospel... ?
They believed and so acted..

For example..
If a person next to you complains of a headache .. You offer to pray for that.
You place your hand on them (lay hands) and you tell (speak to ) that pain to go out in Jesus name.
Then you ask them how they feel ..and you tell them the good news anout JESUS.

Its not rocket science.. Children can do this.

Fear... Now rises! and excuses flood in as to why you should not try this
Well folks..thats the advesary for you..lying to you to get you to stop before you begin .because if you begin you WILL learn


Last night at the medical center we prayed for a lady in pain with a serious infection above her top teeth..
Told all infection to come out.( this takes but a few seconds of prayer ..not two hours.)
As we were praying for another person she suddenly jumped up and grabbed a cloth as the infection suddenly burst and came out amd she had to spit the horrid taste out.
(Healing is not always pretty) she was very happy afterwards .God is good.

Yes i just gave a lesson to equip everyone willing to obey the lord in "How to.."

With the persons permission .lay your hand on the and tell the sickness to Go out in Jesus name..
Disciples are like apprentices.. Active students studying Both the text book and exercising its instructions as they practically learn .
Or... They make theological excuses based on fear and unbelief... And learn nothing.


..

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Best take that up with the lord
Hes the one that said those who are hearers ...(practitioners of theological theory without action) but not Doers (those who put it to action) decieve themselves..

So...you're just a hearer and not a doer? Or do you have an example to offer?

He wasnt scolding a rat for not being a bird
He was saying if you hear it but dont do it your decieving yourselves..

That was a pretty dismissive thing to say. All I asked was whether you had any examples you would like to share, to bolster our faith. Apparently not?

I thought, seeing as how you were downplaying mere ideology in favor of action, that you would understand that debate, such as this, is nothing but ideology.

And yes, you are scolding a rat for not being a bird. You might as well tell me to walk on water. You're not helpful.

I speak of those who spout all the theological theories..but do not Go out and heal the sick ,preach the Gospel, drive out devils ..baptise in Jesus name and teach others to observe all Jesus commanded..

Before you dismiss me, again, I must insist that you tell me if you've been doing those things. I want to know how you healed the sick. I want to hear about how you drove out devils. I want to know if you're just bluffing or if I really have something to learn from you.

That didnt take rocket science to unravel did it ..

Like a knit sweater with a thread caught in a subway train. The emperor has some fine clothes, doesn't he?

 

[Strong in Him]

Your using all the pat one off verses everyone who doesnt do gods will uses to excuse themselves...

I am doing God's will, and it is judgemental to say otherwise.

The gift of healing come via the Holy spirit..
The same holy Spirit who is in all that have the holy spirit.
Your trying to say the description of the gifts
Cancel the words of JESUS ...

No, I'm pointing this out as a fact.
When Paul was teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit he said that we all have our gifts and should use them to play our part in building up the body of Christ. He could have said, "The Spirit has given gifts of teaching, evangelism, serving etc. I'm not going to mention healing and miracles because everyone has those and should be using them." He didn't - he said that we are all part of the body of Christ, the body cannot be all eye, or hand - "do all have gifts of healing?"
Apart from Peter and Paul there is no mention of any of the other believers in the early church going out healing and raising the dead. Paul took Luke, his doctor, with him on his journies, and only preached to the Galatians because he was sick. Another disciple was left behind on one occasion because of sickness.

He said theses signs shall follow those that believe...

And that's another one.

I believe The lord JESUS..

So do I.
I also believe that he leads and guides his sheep, that he can speak to me and show me his will, that he has given me some gifts - and clearly has not given me others.

Yes But....
The words that follow "yes But" are always excuse...

That's how you see it; doesn't mean it's so.

BUT.. lord i was afraid and i hid the talant in the earth
And the lord says you wicked and.lazy servant.. And what that person thought they had is taken off them .
Thats where yes but leads..

Interesting you mention this parable.
The servants were given different amounts of talents - 10, 5 and 1. They used what they had been given to make more, or otherwise. The man who hid his talent in the ground was criticised for literally burying it; not using what he had been given. Or, if he had really been too lazy to do that, he could at least have put it into the bank where it would have got interest. Talent = money.

You can only use this parable as an example if I am burying my gifts; not using what I have been given to serve God through fear or laziness.
I'm not.

Oh people self excuse so much .. Not all have the gift of healing they say..
And ignore that the scripture then says to desire earnestly all the gifts...
Ask and you will recieve
Knock and the door will be opened
Whatever you ask the father in my name he will do it
Etc
Wait on God to know his will....???

Strange that you criticise me for taking random verses out of context and then do the same yourself.

It is his will to save heal deliver set free bring life

And I believe he is doing that.
HE does his will - in many different ways. It is unfair to suggest that if a Christian is not walking onto the streets, healing every sniffle,injury, sickness, clearing the hospital wards and doing the paramedics out of a job, they are not serving God.

People waiting in prayer to know his will om such a basic issue of the great commison ate really just closing their eyes tight so they wont see the written will of God in front of them ....
Where he says Go..... Go out go do it...

Have you actually read the Great Commission?
"Make disciples .... baptise.... teach".

Cant guide a ship in harbour..but once it moves oh wow then you will know him guiding..

I DO know his guidance, thank you.

 

[Alithis]

So...you're just a hearer and not a doer? Or do you have an example to offer?



That was a pretty dismissive thing to say. All I asked was whether you had any examples you would like to share, to bolster our faith. Apparently not?

I thought, seeing as how you were downplaying mere ideology in favor of action, that you would understand that debate, such as this, is nothing but ideology.

And yes, you are scolding a rat for not being a bird. You might as well tell me to walk on water. You're not helpful.



Before you dismiss me, again, I must insist that you tell me if you've been doing those things. I want to know how you healed the sick. I want to hear about how you drove out devils. I want to know if you're just bluffing or if I really have something to learn from you.



Like a knit sweater with a thread caught in a subway train. The emperor has some fine clothes, doesn't he?

Refer to post #22

 

[Alithis]

I am doing God's will, and it is judgemental to say otherwise.



No, I'm pointing this out as a fact.
When Paul was teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit he said that we all have our gifts and should use them to play our part in building up the body of Christ. He could have said, "The Spirit has given gifts of teaching, evangelism, serving etc. I'm not going to mention healing and miracles because everyone has those and should be using them." He didn't - he said that we are all part of the body of Christ, the body cannot be all eye, or hand - "do all have gifts of healing?"
Apart from Peter and Paul there is no mention of any of the other believers in the early church going out healing and raising the dead. Paul took Luke, his doctor, with him on his journies, and only preached to the Galatians because he was sick. Another disciple was left behind on one occasion because of sickness.



And that's another one.



So do I.
I also believe that he leads and guides his sheep, that he can speak to me and show me his will, that he has given me some gifts - and clearly has not given me others.



That's how you see it; doesn't mean it's so.



Interesting you mention this parable.
The servants were given different amounts of talents - 10, 5 and 1. They used what they had been given to make more, or otherwise. The man who hid his talent in the ground was criticised for literally burying it; not using what he had been given. Or, if he had really been too lazy to do that, he could at least have put it into the bank where it would have got interest. Talent = money.

You can only use this parable as an example if I am burying my gifts; not using what I have been given to serve God through fear or laziness.
I'm not.



Strange that you criticise me for taking random verses out of context and then do the same yourself.



And I believe he is doing that.
HE does his will - in many different ways. It is unfair to suggest that if a Christian is not walking onto the streets, healing every sniffle,injury, sickness, clearing the hospital wards and doing the paramedics out of a job, they are not serving God.



Have you actually read the Great Commission?
"Make disciples .... baptise.... teach".



I DO know his guidance, thank you.

A repeated list of excuses..

The main reason people spend so many years saying "they are seeking Gods will" is because they are not doing what he has already plainly told them .

It remains self excusing ...
Just go do it

 

[Alithis]

Theology is and always will only remain theory as long as a person does not step out to place it into action
Faith without righteous action is dead

I lived in such a frustrating state of theological theory for many years ...
empty pointless and self deluded.

No one got healed
(But i didnt pray for sick people)
False Excuse: dont have the gift of healing/not my calling .

No one came to true repentance
(But i did not speak the Good news to people)
False Excuse: im not an evangelist thats thier job not my calling.

Demons didnt get driven out of anyone.
(But i didnt speak the truth of the Gospel or live a holy life or truly believe)
False excuse: much theoogical arguments about if christians can have a devil effecting them and appeasing unbelief.

Never baptised a repentant person in water..
(But no one equipped me in how to or why to)
False excuse: flat out Wrong theology that just pastors baptise people and false teaching that you dont have to and its only symbolic and other such lying teachings of devils.

Never Made more disciples.
(Your never going to if you dont do the above steps)
False Excuse: you send them to a building on a sunday vecause gey wil get discipled into how to obey jesus there.. None of us did but apparently "they" will get that (rather delusional to think so).

...result of all of the above ..a false christian life as a dead bare barren FRUITLESS branch.which the lord will cut off and cast into the Fire .

Then:
Repentance....
Left that sunday organisation that encouraged me in that fruitlessness.

Put all the bibles theories into action..

Result : - a few years later have seen so many healings iv lost count.
Have seen more people come to repentance , get baptised in water, recieve the holy Spirit as evidenced by tongues. Then attended that entire fruitless congragatiin. And who themselves now have led even more people to salvation and are seeing even more people healed. With 2nd and third and 4th generations of fruit occuring ...

Hey people : This Jesus is ALIVE .his word is True and he is faithful to it.
If we will but believe.
Forsake the things (goals desires and ambitions) of sin and this world.
Go out and seek first Gods kingdom ...
We WILL see God bless our obedience.

All you need is to love Jesus enough that you begin to desire what He desires..and you go after it..
No more excuses..

 

[Alithis]

the reason i post this is because i want to provoke more people to love and good works.
The feilds are ripe and white for harvest but the labourers are so very few...
They sit in thier barn.playing church and hoping the harvest will come join them in the barn ..it wont.
You have to go out and work in the harvest.

But one cannot serve two masters
If we are serving this world to work for bread that perishes then all our theologies are pointless

Choose this day whom you will serve
Stop swapping between two opinions

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Refer to post #22

Okay, thanks.

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

Seems to me the disagreement is faith in Jesus participating as a member of his body, but also understanding each member has his or her own purpose. If this is correct then I actually agree with both. It's like the disagreements about the Bible and The Church, well as believers each has it's function or purpose in realizing our personal calling (new selves as believers) and our shared calling (followers of Jesus). Long as we're not poorly motivated and are well intended, our personal relationship seeking both the spirit and the truth for each of us will bring all of it into balance. Not always 50/50, sometimes we need more personal growth and other times we need to help people grow.

Borrowing on the idea of a previous post comparing different body parts. Doesn't the Bible say something about waiting for others and ensuring they're growing with you? To build the body simultaneously or balanced, not for example having a muscle imbalance of a strong right arm but a weak left arm or strong arms but weak legs. So yes we should read the Bible and have correct (accurate/truthful) beliefs, but remember to share our personal relationship and growth in The Church.

My experience it's easy to obsess or neglect one over the other. Either I'm trying to know and understand as much about scripture as I can or I'm being lazy trying to have a lopsided participation as a member. It's important we don't rely too much on ourselves, but not excuse ourselves to do the minimal when we have more to give.

P.S. Not sure I found the scriptures I had in mind. It does relate to what I was thinking and the discussion. (Ephesians 4:14-16, Ephesians 4:11-13)

 

[Strong in Him]

A repeated list of excuses..

If that's how you see it, I can't help you; it's your problem.

The main reason people spend so many years saying "they are seeking Gods will" is because they are not doing what he has already plainly told them .

You don't know that.
You just have a belief that every Christian should be healing/performing miracles like the 12 did - irrespective of the gifts they have been given. So it seems that anyone who does not conform to this belief does not know, and is not doing, God's will.
But that's not the case. Plenty of Christians do God's will without being able to heal the sick.

It remains self excusing ...

In your opinion - which is not God's.

 

[Strong in Him]

the reason i post this is because i want to provoke more people to love and good works.

But instead, you're provoking people.
I have written a few posts explaining what I think, and with Scripture, which you have written off as "a list of excuses." Another forummer said you were "pretty dismissive."

What was that you said in your first post about doing as Jesus did?

 

[Alithis]

Seems to me the disagreement is faith in Jesus participating as a member of his body, but also understanding each member has his or her own purpose. If this is correct then I actually agree with both. It's like the disagreements about the Bible and The Church, well as believers each has it's function or purpose in realizing our personal calling (new selves as believers) and our shared calling (followers of Jesus). Long as we're not poorly motivated and are well intended, our personal relationship seeking both the spirit and the truth for each of us will bring all of it into balance. Not always 50/50, sometimes we need more personal growth and other times we need to help people grow.

Borrowing on the idea of a previous post comparing different body parts. Doesn't the Bible say something about waiting for others and ensuring they're growing with you? To build the body simultaneously or balanced, not for example having a muscle imbalance of a strong right arm but a weak left arm or strong arms but weak legs. So yes we should read the Bible and have correct (accurate/truthful) beliefs, but remember to share our personal relationship and growth in The Church.

My experience it's easy to obsess or neglect one over the other. Either I'm trying to know and understand as much about scripture as I can or I'm being lazy trying to have a lopsided participation as a member. It's important we don't rely too much on ourselves, but not excuse ourselves to do the minimal when we have more to give.

P.S. Not sure I found the scriptures I had in mind. It does relate to what I was thinking and the discussion. (Ephesians 4:14-16, Ephesians 4:11-13)

No scripture which is not actioned forwards in a persons life amounts to anything but useless amassed knowledge about a theory.
It is true we are all to grow up into maturity..
But no baby matures into childhood ,teenage hood or adult hood if it is placed in a cot and bottle fed and encouraged to try nothing .eqipped to try nothing .it learns nothing and remains a baby.
That is why many congragations are membered by 10 yr 2o yr old people in spiritual daipers crying for thier bottle to please and appease them
Unwilling OR unequppied to die to thier own lives thier own agenda thier own ambitions and Go out to seek Gods will for his body.

One of the most ludicrous arguments is when some use the "parts of the body" as excuse to not do the will of the head...
It does not matter what function an eye has..or a foot has.in its function it will preform it in UNITY with the whole body to do the will of the head( being christ alone)
Any notion that the function of a single part is seperated from the over all will of the head is to be ridiculed.for such a body would be spastic...

In short any part of the body that excuses itself from desiring and doing the one thing JESUS came to do (save the lost) care more for its own ends then Christs and does not have the love of God in them. They are lovers of self ... As is foretold of these last days.
Much Repentance is required .

Any branch that does not bear fruit (multiplication of the vine) will be Cut off and cast into the fire.

It is the undeniable will of God for all the body to be fully involved in the great commision
And All can be ..the lord JESUS is for us and has sent the HELPER .so we really have no excuse.
Any believer reading this can repent of thier inactivity and unfruitfullness and God will flood them with help to do his wilwill.h

 

[Alithis]

But instead, you're provoking people.
I have written a few posts explaining what I think, and with Scripture, which you have written off as "a list of excuses." Another forummer said you were "pretty dismissive."

What was that you said in your first post about doing as Jesus did?

look at what JESUS by his spirit said then ..

The coward shall not enter
The disobedient shall not enter
The unfruitful shall be cut of
If you love him he will keep his words ..obey him do the will of the father
Who is my.mother and brother and sister? Those who do the WILL of the father.
We are to be followers of JESUS..
To become like him .he forsook everything in order to Do the Fathers will.
He said we are to folow him...
So drop the pat churchy excuses and go do it.
Because if you just want nicey pie sunday pew coffee and smiles then you need to question who your following...
Jesus didnt go that way... He went the way of the cross
Then unfun hard and narrow way

Many are called but few are chosen
Who then are the chosen ?
Those who deny themselves and answer the call...
Not those who make excuses to justify ignoring the call...

 

[Strong in Him]

look at what JESUS by his spirit said then ..

The coward shall not enter
The disobedient shall not enter
The unfruitful shall be cut of
If you love him he will keep his words ..obey him do the will of the father
Who is my.mother and brother and sister? Those who do the WILL of the father.

Jesus was Lord and God, knew what was in people's hearts and whethet or not they believed in and followed him.
You aren't, and don't.

We are to be followers of JESUS..

I am, thank you.

He said we are to folow him...
So drop the pat churchy excuses and go do it.

Drop the judgemental attitude and love as he loved.

Because if you just want nicey pie sunday pew coffee and smiles then you need to question who your following...

See, I didn't say anything at all about that, don't want it and don't do it - that is entirely your idea.

Many are called but few are chosen
Who then are the chosen ?
Those who deny themselves and answer the call...
Not those who make excuses to justify ignoring the call...

I have been called and I am serving him, thank you.
Would you please stop insisting that I'm not.

 

[Alithis]

Jesus was Lord and God, knew what was in people's hearts and whethet or not they believed in and followed him.
You aren't, and don't.



I am, thank you.



Drop the judgemental attitude and love as he loved.



See, I didn't say anything at all about that, don't want it and don't do it - that is entirely your idea.



I have been called and I am serving him, thank you.
Would you please stop insisting that I'm not.

You need to go back and read the Op..
Its not about " you "

 

[Strong in Him]

You need to go back and read the Op..
Its not about " you "

No, it's not.
But you made it about me when you quoted my posts, said I was making excuses and just told me to go and "do it."

 

[Alithis]

Many think they serve by thier sunday attendance...
But what is it to be fruitful ?
A tree that has an unfruitful branch is a branch that simply is not producing a multiplication of the sort of tree it is..

As disciples of the lord Jesus we are instructed to bear fruit.. To make MORE disciples .
But making more Disciples starts at the end of the instructional list... Not the beginning.

Since making more disciples has the explicit instruction.. " teaching them to observe all i have commanded you" .. One cannot just grab a couple of people from the man made organisation and think to "disciple them "..
What are you going to teach them to observe... Which they are not already doing ?

This usually consists of
Attending a midweek bible study/fellowship.
Attending a sunday meeting .
Singing songs..paying tithes and probably a couple of other nice little things...
So since they are already dicipled in doing what your already doing.. Its likley to be little more then a nice back patting club .
And fruitless.

So to make more disciples and then teach them to observe everything JESUS commanded.WE must ourselves be observing what JESUS our Lord commanded.

His will is made clear, he has not hiddent from us .
We are to Do the great commision.
It is the very task and work for which we have been given the Holy Spirit.. The Helper.
It begins with - Go...
Not stay in ....
It continues with heal the sick... Because that is an action of love.
It then tells us to preach the Gospel..this simply means "Speak it out" ....tell people of the good news of what Jesus has done and his instruction to avail ourselves of his grace via repentance from sinful deeds (dead works ..or ..works that bring death ) Be baptised for the remission of our sin .
Recieve the Holy Spirit and learn to live a New and Holy life...

When you do these things it is inevitable that you will find a person that believes and reoents abd you can then baptise them and see them filled with the Holy Spirit of promise..

Then.because you are already doing it yourself..you can Then begin to teach them how to do what youve just done... NOW..your making a disciple for and of Jesus.

Yes..you ,YOU .... Can do this.

 

[Alithis]

No, it's not.
But you made it about me when you quoted my posts, said I was making excuses and just told me to go and "do it."

I note you keep overlooking the entirety of a post .. The overall message and theme and culminating point.. You then disect the post into peices and make a whole bunch of statements and questions and objections.
None of which are actually about the overall theme and message of the post.

Its why i dont bother answering all your dissections of the text.
Your so busy objecting to every little peice
Your completely missing the point... And distracting others from it.

Essentially your hijacking the thread

 

[Strong in Him]

I note you keep overlooking the entirety of a post .. The overall message and theme and culminating point.. You then disect the post into peices and make a whole bunch of statements and questions and objections.
None of which are actually about the overall theme and message of the post.

I was replying to each of your statements, especially those I disagreed with.

But there's probably no point talking about this any more, so I'll leave you to chat with others.