Theodicy-Why do bad things happen to good people

[Pavel Mosko]

My loss of faith began with scientific, or historical, questions. Since then, though, many philosophical questions have risen that lead me to further question Christian faith. I believe the foremost of these is the question of theodicy.
If there is a loving, perfectly just, all-powerful God, why do bad things happen to good people? I am interested to hear how Christians on this forum address this.
My illustration is this:
In real life, I am the father of two girls, 6 and 8 years old. If I was sitting on one end of a room, with a gun in my hand, and someone was raping my daughter on the other end of the room, what kind of father would I be if I just sat there and watched and did nothing to stop it? I have a gun in my hand, I could do something to stop it, but for whatever reason, I chose not to. Judging by the lowliest human standards, in my opinion, I would not have met my duties as a father. If God is perfectly just and all-powerful, how can He stand by and watch children starve to death, be raped, and murdered?

Your example has two problems

1) God is the father/creator of everybody. So in the scenario he is not just the father of the girls, but the rapist, all the onlookers and all their family members etc.


2) God also works things historically speaking for his purposes. I'm talking about what some people call "The Butterfly Effect".
Butterfly effect - Wikipedia


\ And part of 2 also is free will. God often does allow evil to play out if it is chosen by people, and yes innocent people do suffer, God however does promise that things will eventually play out for our good if we trust Him. So in this way, Christianity has a lot similarity to some other philosophies most notably Stoicism.

 

[Randy B]

Your hatred and rants against God only worsen your outlook. But think how God would glorify his mercy if he gave you a change of heart and made you into a vessel of honor. Paul was in bad shape too before God put him on his knees.

Hatred and rants? I'm asking valid questions. Your response addressed them in no way whatsoever.

Can someone explain to me why a loving God would raise up Pharaoh and his people simply to demonstrate his wrath on them?

It's pretty easy to say from an outsider's perspective that "He is the Creator and He can do whatever He wants with His creation."

I haven't heard anybody say how they would feel if they were put on Earth by God simply for Him to kill you and your children as an example to others.

It's a tough question. It would be interesting if someone could address it.

 

[Randy B]

Just Somebody,

Thank you for replies. I checked into BioLogos last night, btw, but I've got some issues with it. We'll talk about it another time.

My responses are below:

God's ways are beyond our understanding (See the story of Job). To be a Christian is fundamentally to accept this as a truth. God gave us minds and logic, but in the end some things we will never understand.

In my opinion, Job is an awful story where God and Satan are cruelly punishing (including killing his children) a good man just to test him. If someone did something like that today, they would be put in prison immediately.

God never claims to be fair. He claims to be Love and Just, but not fair.

Not looking to pick a fight, I appreciate your contributions, but I don't know the difference between fair and just.

just

adjective

1. based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

My understanding is that God's just nature is what dictates that He must send people to Hell if they don't love Him and believe in Jesus. It seems like this same sense of justice would pervade His other actions and treatment of people.

 

[Randy B]

Your example has two problems

1) God is the father/creator of everybody. So in the scenario he is not just the father of the girls, but the rapist, all the onlookers and all their family members etc.

I don't understand. How does this point address the question? Because God is also the rapist's father, the rapist should be able to do what he wants and there is no reason for a loving, all-powerful God to prevent it?

 

[Bobber]

That's where I respectfully disagree. I am not inclined to start with the conclusion that God is always right and therefore I need to back into a way to accept whatever He or the Bible says as right.

You should at least consider that God could always be right therefore you're more open to at least consider the reasons why he could be. If you start with what seems to be your conclusion that God is wrong and I don't care what anyone says then you could be willingly staying in the shadows.

I am inclined to evaluate what the Bible says using my logic and morals, and come to a conclusion based on that.

Your logic may be telling you an optical illusion is telling you one thing too, when in fact it's not.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

May help?

 

[Randy B]

You should at least consider that God could always be right therefore you're more open to at least consider the reasons why he could be. If you start with what seems to be your conclusion that God is wrong and I don't care what anyone says then you could be willingly staying in the shadows.



Your logic may be telling you an optical illusion is telling you one thing too, when in fact it's not.

I hear ya, Bobber.
I am not starting with the conclusion that God is wrong. I am evaluating a claim, that "God is always right."
Ok, that is your claim. Let me see what evidence I can find that confirms this claim. I will look in the Bible, as it is how God chose to reveal Himself.
...and go from there.

 

[Randy B]

May help?

Bob,
I watched the second video on what happens to aborted babies. My response would be, "what evidence do you have to back up these claims?"

Thanks.

 

[Just Somebody]

Just Somebody,

Thank you for replies. I checked into BioLogos last night, btw, but I've got some issues with it. We'll talk about it another time.

Sounds good. I certainty don't agree with BioLogos on everything, but I point you there because it presents a view of science and Christian Faith you won't find in a lot of places. Check you Peaceful Science as well for a slightly different (and in my view better) take on things.

In my opinion, Job is an awful story where God and Satan are cruelly punishing (including killing his children) a good man just to test him. If someone did something like that today, they would be put in prison immediately.

Our laws, and views of morality are limited to what happens during our life on earth. If that's all there is, then it's hard to understand God as loving, when you see all the suffering that exists.

If there is an eternity, than perhaps, what happens on earth, is less important that our eternal future? I don't suggest this a complete explanation for suffering. In fact when I get to heaven, I hope I'll get answers, because the suffering around me doesn't make sense to me.

That being said, I have had the opportunity to live in 3rd world countries, and count as friends people who have suffered greatly. I've seen despite their suffering, a peace and joy from God that is quite honestly beyond my understanding. I believe God's purpose is for all of us to have that peace and joy. Why he can't give us that & remove suffering, I can't answer.

I've experienced similar things in my own life, the joy and peace in spite of bad circumstances. It's this peace, that is the basis of my faith, despite the questions I can't answer.

Not looking to pick a fight, I appreciate your contributions, but I don't know the difference between fair and just.

I was using them in the following sense:
- Fair - everyone is treated equally
- Just - requires justice for all moral wrongs (Sin)

I should be working. I'll be back this evening, if you want to continue the conversation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My loss of faith began with scientific, or historical, questions. Since then, though, many philosophical questions have risen that lead me to further question Christian faith. I believe the foremost of these is the question of theodicy.
If there is a loving, perfectly just, all-powerful God, why do bad things happen to good people? I am interested to hear how Christians on this forum address this.
My illustration is this:
In real life, I am the father of two girls, 6 and 8 years old. If I was sitting on one end of a room, with a gun in my hand, and someone was raping my daughter on the other end of the room, what kind of father would I be if I just sat there and watched and did nothing to stop it? I have a gun in my hand, I could do something to stop it, but for whatever reason, I chose not to. Judging by the lowliest human standards, in my opinion, I would not have met my duties as a father. If God is perfectly just and all-powerful, how can He stand by and watch children starve to death, be raped, and murdered?

Y'know, I don't know why God allowed my mother to be raped by 3 teenage boys when she was 5 years old, but He did.

However, being that I do know that there are also some characteristics and ontological nuances of God within the biblical concept of the Divine which earthly fathers don't have, the whole analogy upon which the accusation is drawn from and applied should be heavily questioned. And so, as a degreed philosopher myself, I do question the analogy you're using.

 

[Dave L]

Hatred and rants? I'm asking valid questions. Your response addressed them in no way whatsoever.

Can someone explain to me why a loving God would raise up Pharaoh and his people simply to demonstrate his wrath on them?

It's pretty easy to say from an outsider's perspective that "He is the Creator and He can do whatever He wants with His creation."

I haven't heard anybody say how they would feel if they were put on Earth by God simply for Him to kill you and your children as an example to others.

It's a tough question. It would be interesting if someone could address it.

You are replying towards God in a way that tells me you don't understand how serious this is. But I'm replying that God can save you against your will so that you understand and love him more than anything or anyone else. It's not up to you. It's wholly up to what he planned from eternity for his glory.

 

[Randy B]

Y'know, I don't know why God allowed my mother to be raped by 3 teenage boys when she was 5 years old, but He did.

However, being that I do know that there are also some characteristics and ontological nuances of God within the biblical concept of the Divine which earthly fathers don't have, the whole analogy upon which the accusation is drawn from and applied should be heavily questioned. And so, as a degreed philosopher myself, I do question the analogy you're using.

Philo, I am truly very sorry to hear that that happened to your mother.

Let's assume there are differences in the nature of God's fatherhood and human fatherhood. I think the question is still worth asking.

What would you say about me as an Earthly father in that scenario? If I sat by with a gun in my hand as I watched someone rape my daughter?

Why wouldn't the same be expected of God? Genuine question.

 

[crossnote]

There are no ‘good’ people, as all have sinned and are under God’s wrath apart from Jesus Christ, i.e. God doesn’t owe us one red cent.

 

[Randy B]

But I'm replying that God can save you against your will so that you understand and love him more than anything or anyone else.

How does this interact with the concept of free will, which I've heard in many instances as the reasoning behind God allowing bad things to happen.

You are replying towards God in a way that tells me you don't understand how serious this is. But I'm replying that God can save you against your will so that you understand and love him more than anything or anyone else. It's not up to you. It's wholly up to what he planned from eternity for his glory.

My interpretation of this is to say that if you and your family were put on Earth for the sole purpose of being a way for God to demonstrate his wrath, you would say, "Well, that's unfortunate, but it is God's plan for me and who am I to question that..."

Is that about right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Randy B]

There are no ‘good’ people, as all have sinned and are under God’s wrath apart from Jesus Christ, i.e. God doesn’t owe us one red cent.

So your interpretation is to that because of a child's sin nature, which they are born into without choice because of Adam's first sin, it is ok for God to let children suffer?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Philo, I am truly very sorry to hear that that happened to your mother.

Thanks. I appreciate that. Just that one incident in her childhood was apparently a huge emotional hit in her life, among others that she had to endure.

Let's assume there are differences in the nature of God's fatherhood and human fatherhood. I think the question is still worth asking.

If we're going to assume there are differences, then we need to actually and fully account for those differences rather than just saying we're doing so.

What would you say about me as an Earthly father in that scenario? If I sat by with a gun in my hand as I watched someone rape my daughter?

Why wouldn't the same be expected of God? Genuine question.

You're right, you're positing a genuine question. However, maybe realize, too, that this question you're positing is asked time and time again here on CF, and each time it is pushed, I'm often surprised that those persons asking it do so without first enunciating clearly and establishing their own ethical framework and the assumptions by which they think that ethical framework is "correct." As a philosopher, I have to question a state of mind in which an interlocutor seeks to question another alternative ethical framework (such as the one in the bible) without knowing and establishing that one's own framework has indeed something solid, coherent and essentially more correct and right to go by. Yet as I said, time and time again I see atheists flock to CF and start in with this perennial question, as if they have some right to just land with it and to do so without establishing from the outset their own ethical framework by which they criticize the biblical ethical framework.

But let's pretend that we can just assume that your present ethical stance, such as you think it is axiologically at the moment, is fully justified. Even if it is fully justified, for us to actually 'handle' the concept of God and the biblical ethics in which the concept of the Divine is embedded, we'd have to be able to demonstrate that we've done so with conceptual integrity; that is, we'd have to analytically take into account all that the biblical teachings offer up to us and not just hone in on those singular, detached concepts that seem to make us feel uncomfortable when we read them or when we try to apply them in our real world lives.

I'll stop there for the moment, because I know that's a lot to have to take in as a 'counter' to the question you've posited.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I don't understand. How does this point address the question? Because God is also the rapist's father, the rapist should be able to do what he wants and there is no reason for a loving, all-powerful God to prevent it?

I'm saying it a combination of things at work, System's theory if you will. And in this case, the System is not just one part of the immediate present, but comprehensive and something that has gone back eons etc.

I will note that your OP thought experiment is just a variant of what other atheists and skeptics have also said and can be traced to at least as far as Epicurus who lived 3 centuries before Christ.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus


This sort of thing of thing is addressed in the Bible a number of times starting with the Book of Job etc. it is nothing new. There are lots of bad things God allows because of the Fall, because of his own purposes, to test believers, and so on. In the language of the New Testament "this is a hard saying". One that people are not going to like, a moment in time that they will be tempted to fall away and so on.

 

[Randy B]

As a philosopher, I have to question a state of mind in which an interlocutor seeks to question another alternative ethical framework (such as the one in the bible) without knowing and establishing that one's own framework has indeed something solid, coherent and essentially more correct and right to go by.

I hear ya, Philo. I would say that my ethical framework is Utilitarianism.

Even if it is fully justified, for us to actually 'handle' the concept of God and the biblical ethics in which the concept of the Divine is embedded, we'd have to be able to demonstrate that we've done so with conceptual integrity; that is, we'd have to analytically take into account all that the biblical teachings offer up to us and not just hone in on those singular, detached concepts that seem to make us feel uncomfortable when we read them or when we try to apply them in our real world lives.

I fully recognize that there is some good stuff in the Bible. However, if I am to take something on as a guide for how I should live my life, it seems like it would make sense to evaluate all of its claims and instruction. It seems natural that when you're questioning the validity of something you would start with those things that you disagree with.

Scientific Claims
Questionable Morals
Violence
Conflicting Claims (not small details, but big concepts)

These are the things that concern me. Particularly if I'm being told that this is the inspired word of God, who is worthy of my praise, is all-powering, all-loving, and all-knowing, and is in control of my eternal well-being.

 

[Randy B]

Yes, I have no doubt that I am not the first to think of this concept. I'm sure it's been asked a million times a million different ways, but I think it's still worth exploring.

This sort of thing of thing is addressed in the Bible a number of times starting with the Book of Job etc. it is nothing new. There are lots of bad things God allows because of the Fall, because of his own purposes, to test believers, and so on. In the language of the New Testament "this is a hard saying". One that people are not going to like, a moment in time that they will be tempted to fall away and so on.

Yes, I believe I understand what you're saying. However, this is simply not an acceptable answer for me.

God allows immeasurable suffering to take place because of the Fall (the first man and woman ate fruit they were told not to) for His purposes and to test believers.

I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

Do you think an ant can understand a human being?