durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
....However, they have denied it and have continued to deny it which, unfortunately, leaves them wide open to those terrible things that God said they would be subject to if they persisted in their unbelief, which they have, even generation after generation after generation...
I see. So are these terrible things the natural consequence, a sort of side-effect, of walking outside the light of Jesus? Or are they actually inflicted by God specifically on the Jews as an inducement, or punishment, or some other behavioral tool?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Other scholars got to me before you did!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,187
9,962
The Void!
✟1,133,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I see. So are these terrible things the natural consequence, a sort of side-effect, of walking outside the light of Jesus? Or are they actually inflicted by God specifically on the Jews as an inducement, or punishment, or some other behavioral tool?

... truthfully, I'm not going to say something affirmative with aplomb when the fact is that I don't hold my interpretation of all of this with any kind of dogmatism. However, you're free to 'test' my assertions yourself by simply reading for yourself the Blessings and Curses in the contexts in which they are placed in the O.T., along with all of the other various texts in the Bible that reflect the same pattern of God's spiritual legislation in Covenanting with the Israelite/Jewish people. (You'll find these in both Leviticus and Deuteronomy). When doing so, I think you'll be able to come to understand that an answer to your two questions above can be 'yes' to both ... sadly to say.

And does this make me happy? Most definitely not! It's an ugly fact in dealing with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and then in and through Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God). There's nothing gleeful in all of this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What do you mean by "evolution belief"?

They believed that white people were more highly evolved humans than anybody else. It justified their views that not only was it okay to kill the Jews but necessary for evolution to occur. This is why they had no qualms about gassing children and making giant graves. That’s what you do when you exterminate vermin. They believed they were creating a master race of people and to do that they had to be rid of the inferior humans. I have no doubt that had they won the war that black people and Asians and everybody not Aryan would have been next on the list. I think my post was pretty clear about that. White supremacist/Nazi’s use evolution belief to justify their racism. If you don't understand, I can't make it more clear.
 
Upvote 0

Sérgio Junior

Nominal and agnostic Christian
Sep 29, 2015
104
69
Sao Paulo
✟225,975.00
Country
Brazil
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
They believed that white people were more highly evolved humans than anybody else. It justified their views that not only was it okay to kill the Jews but necessary for evolution to occur. This is why they had no qualms about gassing children and making giant graves. That’s what you do when you exterminate vermin. They believed they were creating a master race of people and to do that they had to be rid of the inferior humans. I have no doubt that had they won the war that black people and Asians and everybody not Aryan would have been next on the list. I think my post was pretty clear about that. White supremacist/Nazi’s use evolution belief to justify their racism. If you don't understand, I can't make it more clear.
If this "evolution" that you are talking about is the scientific theory of evolution, sorry to say but you are wrong, the theory of evolution isn't a religious belief but a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life on earth. I think you are confusing the "Social Darwinism" with "Biological Evolution", and the Social Darwinism has nothing to do with Charles Darwin's science, and in science there are no concepts of "Superior Race" and "Inferior Race". I understood very well what you wrote in your penultimate post, the only thing I asked was what you meant by "evolution belief". But anyway evolution isn't the subject of this topic.
 
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
I appreciate the candour.

Thing is, this is replaying the mediaeval debates between Realists and Nominalists. Tell me, when you say evil is Real if in human consciousness, obviously you are assuming levels of 'reality' here. Or is Bigfoot real? As real as a Gorilla, say? Both functionally only exist as concepts; as most people have never really seen a Gorilla, some claim to have seen Bigfoot also, and even if you have seen either, that activity is sense-mediated. Why is someone's subjective experience of a Gorilla more real than another's of Bigfoot, or at what point does intersubjectivity switch from delusion or illusion to objective fact? Things that most people see as 'objectively' real, such as a table say, are still merely a mental simulacrum made from the sense perceptions. We'd go so far as to say that in a sense the table is not, but rather an illusion of the particles it consists of acting on light or pressure receptors, which our mental process has constructed into an image in the mind. So how real is Evil, then? Does it have intersubjective valence? If so, how would that be validated? For that matter, what is Consciousness anyway that somehow acts as the medium for this Reality of evil? What of subconsciousness? Or archetype and cultural conceptions both arise somewhat out of?

I am being a bit obtuse, for which I apologise. You agreed that Evil is thus rendered merely a human construct, which can thus not be really justified beyond 'I say so', a nice formulation of Nietzsche's Will to create your own morality, really. However, as human experience is incorribly subjective, and as Science progressed become more so (with primary characteristics of increasingly becoming secondary, as optics first did with colour become observer dependant, then Relativity for length and time, and Quantum theory requiring the Observation altering the observed itself), the difference between what exists 'only in human consciousness' (whatever that means) and what exists, is decidely thin. We functionally treat what amounts to a mental simulacrum as Real routinely. Sufficed to say, to accept this as Real requires a way to accept some Intersubjectivity, which requires an assumed metaphysical framework to account for it.

In my mind, I have direct experience of a moral intuition, which tells me torturing a child worse than not doing so. This is clearer and more obvious to me on reflection, than the existence of a table that I know to be merely a mental model projected of particles mediated by sensory neurons receiving supposed stimuli, or the existence of a Gorilla I take on authority from experts and imagery I have seen. You need not agree with me, but it is obvious to my mind that Evil is, that it isn't primary to existence, and denying the problem of Evil in its theologic sense merely kicks open the question of how anything can then be intersubjectively validated or whether any meaning bears any relation beyond a merely nominally ascribed one then at all.

My point is simply that this doesn't solve a problem, except by creating umpteenth more, while the original proposition is not safely able to be set aside anyway thereby.
You're right that we apparently can't say completely definitely what is real, we have to agree on certain axioms. People's experience of Bigfoot may be as real as any other experience (any experience is really 'real' by definition), but when we investigate it we find that a) there aren't many trustworthy observations of the creature, and b) the fact that people have seen it can be explained in other ways. That goes for Bigfoot, UFO abductions, sugar making children hyperactive, and countless other false views people have.

I think one of the most important things we've figured out is that people aren't wired to see reality as it is, but rather in whatever way that increases our chances of survival. A good example of this is how most of us are terrified of embarrasing ourselves even if we're among strangers we'll never meet again. That fear isn't rational and based on reality, but is most likely an instinct preserved from the time when we lived in small groups and being shunned by that group could mean death. Religion, too, has probably served to increase our chances of surviving in groups, and is still with us even though it's not needed in the same way today.

Another useful thing to know is that, in reality, things like tables don't really exist. A table is a concept, the reality is that it's a bunch of wood and paint. It's not made of "table stuff." It may seem too obvious or just a play with words, but it's worth pondering upon. Of all the things you experience, how many of them are truly real, and how many are just concepts? You may say that the table is a concept, while the actual reality is wood. But that's not really true either. Because wood is just a particular arrangement of molecules. And the molecules themselves are made of things that aren't molecules. And so forth.

In this view, I suppose you can say that emotions like anger or a sense of morality are among the least "real" things there are. And I think evolution adequately (though not yet fully) explains why we have this sense of morality that's so strong it appears to be obvious, given, and objective.

If morality truly were objective, we could expect it to be universal, but it's clear that it's not. Everybody cares about themselves and their kin, but beyond that, morality goes in all directions.

So I'm not "denying" the problem of evil. I just don't see it as a problem to begin with. That is, of course evil is a problem, but in my worldview it's only natural that it exists. It not like it "shouldn't" exist.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
...Another useful thing to know is that, in reality, things like tables don't really exist. A table is a concept, the reality is that it's a bunch of wood and paint. It's not made of "table stuff." It may seem too obvious or just a play with words, but it's worth pondering upon. Of all the things you experience, how many of them are truly real, and how many are just concepts? You may say that the table is a concept, while the actual reality is wood. But that's not really true either. Because wood is just a particular arrangement of molecules. And the molecules themselves are made of things that aren't molecules. And so forth....
I call this "scale privilege". The idea that parts or ingredients are 'more real' that than the whole. Or the related idea that nothing is real because its 'parts all the way down'.

I dont buy it at all. A loaf of bread is as real as a cup of flour or a mole of atoms.
 
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
I call this "scale privilege". The idea that parts or ingredients are 'more real' that than the whole. Or the related idea that nothing is real because its 'parts all the way down'.

I dont buy it at all. A loaf of bread is as real as a cup of flour or a mole of atoms.
I'm not saying the loaf isn't real, but that it's a really only real as a concept. Because what is a loaf? It's not made of loaf, it's made of bread, right. And what is bread? That's just a concept too. The bread is made of wheat, yeast etc.

Say your dog eats the loaf. It has no concept of having eaten a loaf. It doesn't even have a concept of having eaten bread, much less the parts that make up the bread. The bread is real in that it exists, but humans seeing it as "bread" is really just an abstract.

When you think about it, that's how it is with everything we perceive, isn't it?
 
Upvote 0

A Gerbil

Active Member
Oct 8, 2019
190
158
Lanarkshire, Scotland
✟16,856.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why exactly the Holocaust? People have suffered through all history of human life so claiming God does not exist because there is evil does not mean atheism is the answer since evil would technically not exist but be an idea.

Talking about suffering in the world, we need to recognise that we live in a fallen world with people who take wicked decisions that affect others. Nevertheless, for God our salvation is the primary goal.

Yes, what about the horrors of the Holodomor, Armenian Genocide or the atrocities committed by any of the Socialist dictators - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc? All of these events happened last century, too.
 
Upvote 0

A Gerbil

Active Member
Oct 8, 2019
190
158
Lanarkshire, Scotland
✟16,856.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I meant to write my actual reply to the question - is Satan not the ruler of this world? John 12:31

Life is like a test. Adam and Eve had us evicted from Paradise, and we shall know good and evil. Satan will tempt us here on earth, and people will not be able to resist temptation, but through the blood of Christ we can be redeemed and restored to Paradise. You cannot live a sinless life without accepting the grace of God.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,651
18,545
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
There was a good movie by the BBC called God on Trial. Based on real events at Auschwitz. Worth watching. Needless to say, the prisoners found God liable for their plight, but in the end even they found need to pray.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I'm not saying the loaf isn't real, but that it's a really only real as a concept. Because what is a loaf? It's not made of loaf, it's made of bread, right. And what is bread? That's just a concept too. The bread is made of wheat, yeast etc.

Say your dog eats the loaf. It has no concept of having eaten a loaf. It doesn't even have a concept of having eaten bread, much less the parts that make up the bread. The bread is real in that it exists, but humans seeing it as "bread" is really just an abstract.

When you think about it, that's how it is with everything we perceive, isn't it?
So we should also conclude that a birds nest isnt real, because to some ants its just a bunch of sticks?

To me, it seems reasonable to think of the products of animal behavior, like nests and loaves, as real features of the world, even if the concepts involved arent transferable to other species, or to rocks.
 
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
So we should also conclude that a birds nest isnt real, because to some ants its just a bunch of sticks?

To me, it seems reasonable to think of the products of animal behavior, like nests and loaves, as real features of the world, even if the concepts involved arent transferable to other species, or to rocks.
Again, sure they are real, but they are still only concepts. The nest isn't made of "nest stuff". When we talk about what is really real, we have to look deeper than our concepts. Like countries, or football rules, these are things that really only exist in our minds. I and a house fly can be looking at the same TV screen. I see a football match, the fly sees a bunch of small dots changing colours. Which of us has the most real or accurate view?

Personally I think that "dissecting" our perceptions in this way is both entertaining and useful. I had a long and interesting talk with my daughter about it just last night. I pointed to one of her books and asked her what it was.
"It's a book."
"Sure, we call this a book, but actually, it's a bunch of cellulose and ink, and a plastic bookmark."
"OK, it's cellulose and ink and plastic."
"But plastic isn't made of plastic, right? It's made of oil. And oil is made of dinosaurs and plankton" etc etc

It's a fun exercise, but it also teaches us something about ourselves and the world: that we don't really see anything as it really is, and that that everything is connected and depends on something else. IMO it's both very humbling and very reassuring.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Let's assume for a second that you and the fly share roughly the same vision capabilities. Then you are definitely seeing a more complete reality than the fly. Not more real, but more complete. You both see a physical screen, but only you can grasp the very real information and meaning embedded there. It's a whole level of reality the fly can't access. The information is no less real because the fly or the houseplants can't grasp it.

Same with your daughters book. The reductionist view doenst get to anything more real. It's just a bias against "higher" levels of reality like information or meaning. You're cutting out the best parts of reality imo.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Again, sure they are real, but they are still only concepts. The nest isn't made of "nest stuff". When we talk about what is really real, we have to look deeper than our concepts. Like countries, or football rules, these are things that really only exist in our minds. I and a house fly can be looking at the same TV screen. I see a football match, the fly sees a bunch of small dots changing colours. Which of us has the most real or accurate view?

Personally I think that "dissecting" our perceptions in this way is both entertaining and useful. I had a long and interesting talk with my daughter about it just last night. I pointed to one of her books and asked her what it was.
"It's a book."
"Sure, we call this a book, but actually, it's a bunch of cellulose and ink, and a plastic bookmark."
"OK, it's cellulose and ink and plastic."
"But plastic isn't made of plastic, right? It's made of oil. And oil is made of dinosaurs and plankton" etc etc

It's a fun exercise, but it also teaches us something about ourselves and the world: that we don't really see anything as it really is, and that that everything is connected and depends on something else. IMO it's both very humbling and very reassuring.
(Just replied to this post.... Above. But it didn't quote you for some reason)
 
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Let's assume for a second that you and the fly share roughly the same vision capabilities. Then you are definitely seeing a more complete reality than the fly. Not more real, but more complete. You both see a physical screen, but only you can grasp the very real information and meaning embedded there. It's a whole level of reality the fly can't access. The information is no less real because the fly or the houseplants can't grasp it.

Same with your daughters book. The reductionist view doenst get to anything more real. It's just a bias against "higher" levels of reality like information or meaning. You're cutting out the best parts of reality imo.
Well, when you're looking at the TV, you probably have no awareness that what's going on is beams of light and sound waves going through the air, creating an experience in your brain. It's no use watching TV that way, but you're hardly experiencing reality. But unlike flies, we can choose which parts of reality to focus on.

Perhaps a better example is when someone annoys you. That's totally real, but there's more to it. For one thing, you may not be aware that nobody is imposing the experience of being annoyed on you. That's all your (probably pretty mindless) reaction to the situation. And there are reasons the other person is acting like they do. Maybe they're unable to consider your wellbeing because their father just died. The more you're aware of the "reality behind the reality", the wiser you can act in response to it. So I'm not sure I would agree that being immersed in a TV program or being annoyed is part of a higher level of reality - it may be the opposite.

More compassion for others (and oneself!) is one of the great benefits of taking some time once in a while to ponder what's really real and how things are chained together.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Well, when you're looking at the TV, you probably have no awareness that what's going on is beams of light and sound waves going through the air, creating an experience in your brain. It's no use watching TV that way, but you're hardly experiencing reality. But unlike flies, we can choose which parts of reality to focus on....
You mean like all of reality in that TV situation? Of course not. But you are absolutely experiencing some of reality (the macro scale shape of the TV, shapes in motion on the screen, the score of the movie, the meaning in the dialog.) All these things are really real. Sounds like you think the beams of light and so on are more real than these human scale events I mention. If so, by what principles do you justify that position?

Perhaps a better example is when someone annoys you. That's totally real, but there's more to it. For one thing, you may not be aware that nobody is imposing the experience of being annoyed on you. That's all your (probably pretty mindless) reaction to the situation. And there are reasons the other person is acting like they do. Maybe they're unable to consider your wellbeing because their father just died. The more you're aware of the "reality behind the reality", the wiser you can act in response to it. So I'm not sure I would agree that being immersed in a TV program or being annoyed is part of a higher level of reality - it may be the opposite.

More compassion for others (and oneself!) is one of the great benefits of taking some time once in a while to ponder what's really real and how things are chained together.
Your above example seems more about knowledge vs ignorance: how ignorance can breed misunderstandings, leading to bad feelings. But it doesnt really get to this question of what things we should call "real". I thought the TV example was pretty good far that.
 
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
You mean like all of reality in that TV situation? Of course not. But you are absolutely experiencing some of reality (the macro scale shape of the TV, shapes in motion on the screen, the score of the movie, the meaning in the dialog.) All these things are really real. Sounds like you think the beams of light and so on are more real than these human scale events I mention. If so, by what principles do you justify that position?


Your above example seems more about knowledge vs ignorance: how ignorance can breed misunderstandings, leading to bad feelings. But it doesnt really get to this question of what things we should call "real". I thought the TV example was pretty good far that.
The question is 'what is this'. Say you have a bag of 10 blue and yellow marbles. It would be true to say you've got a bunch of marbles. But it's more true to say you have ten. And it's even more true to say you 3 blue marbles and seven yellow ones. And so forth. Same (and a more practical matter) with emotions. "He made me angry" vs "I feel anger" vs "my reaction to what happened caused an emotional response in me" vs "why did he do this apparently hostile thing?"

So yes, it's about knowledge and ignorance. In our daily lives we just relate to all these concepts often without ever having thought about what they really are. In other words, we don't see reality as it is, and it makes an enormous difference when we do.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,583
15,744
Colorado
✟432,844.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
The question is 'what is this'. Say you have a bag of 10 blue and yellow marbles. It would be true to say you've got a bunch of marbles. But it's more true to say you have ten. And it's even more true to say you 3 blue marbles and seven yellow ones. And so forth. Same (and a more practical matter) with emotions. "He made me angry" vs "I feel anger" vs "my reaction to what happened caused an emotional response in me" vs "why did he do this apparently hostile thing?"

So yes, it's about knowledge and ignorance. In our daily lives we just relate to all these concepts often without ever having thought about what they really are. In other words, we don't see reality as it is, and it makes an enormous difference when we do.
I really agree with this. But it seems a departure from the discussion about what things we should call "real". I mean, absolutely- wrong apprehension regarding emotional cause and effect is harmful, and causes a cascade of karma, basically. Totally agree.

I'm still interested in challenging the reductionist notion of whats "more real" that you seemed to champion. Maybe youve given up on that, or maybe I misunderstood your position in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
If morality truly were objective, we could expect it to be universal, but it's clear that it's not. Everybody cares about themselves and their kin, but beyond that, morality goes in all directions.
My argument was Morality could be more Real in some measure, as it is directly apprehended. You would champion molecules or atoms as primary, but how do you know they exist? Via an argument from Authority that told you they do, and if you accept a primarily empirical method of reality testing, you perceive their 'realness' only via senses and a mental simulacrum. In essence, you would need to assume a priori notions of uniformitarianism, empiricism, and establish some method of Intersubjectivity to overcome our in essence subjective experience, for the latter. The axioms are far more to adopt molecules as true, and even if true, that doesn't actually impact the concept of morality without importing further assumptions like Naturalistic Materialism that don't deductively follow therefrom.

Besides, we assume the 'reality' of extra-material concepts all the time, which this worldview actively needs, such as Force or Gravity or Electromagnetism. They are tenuously deduced from changes observed in matter, but how does this differ from deducing Moral Law from human behaviour? Not very clearly, hence why the founders of the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment championed both these 'forces' and the idea of the Natural Law of morality.

Anyway, human morality is surprisingly uniform. Basic morality is even found in infants. It is a bit disingenuous to claim it is evolutionary or instinctive on the one hand (everyone cares about kith and kin, or speak of hypothetical small groups of primordial humans) and then say morality 'goes in all directions'. It really doesn't. Murder, theft, the Golden Rule, etc. are found in almost all cultures. The differences are marginal, and can be easily seen to be superstrate from an ideological system or historic artifact that actively need to be culturally enforced, like Japanese Emperor worship or honour culture.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,841.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If this "evolution" that you are talking about is the scientific theory of evolution, sorry to say but you are wrong, the theory of evolution isn't a religious belief but a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life on earth. I think you are confusing the "Social Darwinism" with "Biological Evolution", and the Social Darwinism has nothing to do with Charles Darwin's science, and in science there are no concepts of "Superior Race" and "Inferior Race". I understood very well what you wrote in your penultimate post, the only thing I asked was what you meant by "evolution belief". But anyway evolution isn't the subject of this topic.

No one mentioned science. The nazi's/white supremacist believe they are more evolved then black, brown or anybody else. It doesn't matter what science says, this is about their beliefs. This is why the holocaust happened.
 
Upvote 0