Theodicy and the Holocaust

[Sérgio Junior]

For a long time one question has been bothering me, is the question of theodicy (arguments of God's Justice in the face of evil in the world), I am a Christian and I believe in God, but lately I have been very troubled with a negative image of God and also with the question of God's omnibenevolence in the face of evil in the world, such as the Holocaust (also known as Shoah).In the scriptures it is said that the Lord is onibenevolent, ok, but if God is omnibenevolent, where was the benivolence of God at the moment when over than 1 million Jewish children were killed in gas chambers and ovenss in Auschwitz? Every day I see that these attributes are totally inconsistent with the realities of this universe. I don't want to end up with non-orthodox ideas like Open Theism, ideas from that Death of God movement that started in the 19th century by secularists and liberal protestants or that Lord is simply powerful but not loving.

I know this discussion has been done many times, but I was wondering why you believe in attributes such as omnibenivolence, when the reality shows that this attribute don't have place in this universe.

It's very difficult for Christians to discuss these question related to post Holocaust Theodicy, and when they discuss the most they say is about freewill (which frankly, for me is a way to avoid the question).

I wanted to open this topic in the Christian Apologetics section, but I still can't post in that part of the forum.

 

[Sketcher]

In the scriptures it is said that the Lord is onibenevolent, ok, but if God is omnibenevolent, where was the benivolence of God at the moment when over than 1 million Jewish children were killed in gas chambers and ovenss in Auschwitz?

Where in Scripture does it say that God is omnibenevolent?

 

[Tolworth John]

Since Adam's rebellion against God there has been evil in the world.
God is not responsible for our evil deeds.
We know what is right, but choose not to do it.
How many people who complain about evil, injustice etc are also willing to accept the answer lies in Jesus?

 

[Not David]

Why exactly the Holocaust? People have suffered through all history of human life so claiming God does not exist because there is evil does not mean atheism is the answer since evil would technically not exist but be an idea.

Talking about suffering in the world, we need to recognise that we live in a fallen world with people who take wicked decisions that affect others. Nevertheless, for God our salvation is the primary goal.

 

[Jeshu]

i believe one of the best answers to your questions can be found in a book written by the German theologian Jurgen Moltman called The Crucified God. Another excellent book he has written is The theology of Hope.

Moltman points out that God suffers all the wrongdoing on this earth in and through The Cross, silencing the protest atheists and the existential view that God is dead but that just because of Christ's resurrection life can bring us hope for better.

i highly recommend this author for anyone struggling with a good God living in an evil world.

 

[royal priest]

All calamity such as genocide is a warning to humanity that God will be avanged for our sins against Him. As tragic and terrible as such things are, they are nothing in comparison to what Jesus will do to the unrepentant when He returns in glory.
Luke 13:1-5
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Great God, what do I see and hear!
The end of things created!
The Judge of mankind doth appear
on clouds of glory seated!
The trumpet sounds; the graves restore
the dead which they contained before:
prepare, my soul, to meet him.

The dead in Christ shall first arise,
at the last trumpet's sounding,
caught up to meet him in the skies,
with joy their Lord surrounding;
no gloomy fears their souls dismay;
his presence sheds eternal day
on those prepared to meet him.

But sinners, filled with guilty fears,
behold his wrath prevailing;
for they shall rise, and find their tears
and sighs are unavailing:
the day of grace is past and gone;
trembling, they stand before the throne,
all unprepared to meet him.

Great God, what do I see and hear!
The end of things created!
The Judge of mankind doth appear
on clouds of glory seated!
Beneath his cross I view the day
when heav'n and earth shall pass away,
and thus prepare to meet him.
--Anonymous

 

[Carl Emerson]

I traveled on a tour in Israel with the Zionist Congress and others on the bus learned I was a believer.
One member turned to me rather aggressively asked 'where was God during the Holocaust ?'
This was a good question, my answer, - He was right in the middle of it or no one would have survived.

This illustrates the following.

1. God is in full control of all events.
2. God always saves a remnant as evil can never fully prevail.
3. We have over rated this life compared to the eternity to come.

 

[Sérgio Junior]

Where in Scripture does it say that God is omnibenevolent?

This word doesn't exist in the Bible, as you may know this is a Latin term and that means "all good" and "infinite benevolence", and it seems that some verses give this idea (such as Psalm 100: 5, James 1:17 and Mark 10:18).

 

[Sérgio Junior]

Since Adam's rebellion against God there has been evil in the world.
God is not responsible for our evil deeds.
We know what is right, but choose not to do it.

So you think all evil has entered the world because of a man who ate a fruit? Sorry, I dont take the first 3 chapters of Genesis in a literal way!
I'm not blaming God directly, I just discuss the idea that He didn't intervene in tragedy situations like the Holocaust.

How many people who complain about evil, injustice etc are also willing to accept the answer lies in Jesus?

They complain because they don't believe in Jesus, maybe??

 

[Sérgio Junior]

Why exactly the Holocaust? People have suffered through all history of human life so claiming God does not exist because there is evil does not mean atheism is the answer since evil would technically not exist but be an idea.

Talking about suffering in the world, we need to recognise that we live in a fallen world with people who take wicked decisions that affect others. Nevertheless, for God our salvation is the primary goal.

I used the Holocaust as an example, but there have been many tragedies, genocides and brutal deaths throughout the history of this world, I don't consider atheism as an answer, atheism is not an option for me, but you should ask this to atheists, I'm not an atheist, I'm just a Theist who walks with the spirit a little downcast and inflamed with these questions.

Do you think that millions of people should pay for some people's mistake or bad decisions?

 

[Sérgio Junior]

i believe one of the best answers to your questions can be found in a book written by the German theologian Jurgen Moltman called The Crucified God. Another excellent book he has written is The theology of Hope.

Moltman points out that God suffers all the wrongdoing on this earth in and through The Cross, silencing the protest atheists and the existential view that God is dead but that just because of Christ's resurrection life can bring us hope for better.

i highly recommend this author for anyone struggling with a good God living in an evil world.

Thanks, as soon as possible I'll take a look at Moltman's Book.

 

[Sérgio Junior]

All calamity such as genocide is a warning to humanity that God will be avanged for our sins against Him. As tragic and terrible as such things are, they are nothing in comparison to what Jesus will do to the unrepentant when He returns in glory.

I don't know how this is compatible with these verses:

10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us. (Psalm 103:10-12 NIV)

18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool. (Isaiah 1.18 NIV)

 

[Sérgio Junior]

God is in full control of all events.

If God is in control of all things, then why does He not intervene in some situations? I dont say that He must intervene at all times, but He should intervene in high-level catastrophe such as the Holocaust, for example.

 

[Sketcher]

This word doesn't exist in the Bible, as you may know this is a Latin term and that means "all good" and "infinite benevolence", and it seems that some verses give this idea (such as Psalm 100: 5, James 1:17 and Mark 10:18).

OK.

Now, did Jesus or the Biblical authors who said/wrote those things under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit acknowledge, or not acknowledge the brutal disasters that happened to Israel that were mentioned in the Bible? If they did, why could they say and write those things with conviction?

And how is the Holocaust, in terms of loss of life, liberty, and property, worse than some of those, such as the Babylonian captivity, or the invasions and raids of the Phillistines, Amelekites, and Assyrians? Or the plagues and the famines? If God is good after all that, why would the Holocaust change that?

 

[Sérgio Junior]

Now, did Jesus or the Biblical authors who said/wrote those things under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit acknowledge, or not acknowledge the brutal disasters that happened to Israel that were mentioned in the Bible? If they did, why could they say and write those things with conviction?

And how is the Holocaust, in terms of loss of life, liberty, and property, worse than some of those, such as the Babylonian captivity, or the invasions and raids of the Phillistines, Amelekites, and Assyrians? Or the plagues and the famines? If God is good after all that, why would the Holocaust change that?

I just used the Holocaust as the example.

After all these events that you mentioned why should people believe that God is good, being that certain events in this world dont have evidence this?

 

[Not David]

I used the Holocaust as an example, but there have been many tragedies, genocides and brutal deaths throughout the history of this world, I don't consider atheism as an answer, in fact I don't think atheism answers many things, but you should ask this to atheists, I'm not an atheist, I'm just a Theist who walks with the spirit a little downcast and inflamed with these questions.

Do you think that millions of people should pay for some people's mistake or bad decisions?

Sorry, I was just trying to get atheist rationale as an answer out. Unfortunately, that's how the world works, we don't live apart from society so anything we do might affect others.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If God is in control of all things, then why does He not intervene in some situations? I dont say that He must intervene at all times, but He should intervene in high-level catastrophe such as the Holocaust, for example.

He did... a remnant was saved...

 

[Sketcher]

I just used the Holocaust as the example.

After all these events that you mentioned why should people believe that God is good, being that certain events in this world dont have evidence this?

Because disasters on Earth do not indicate that God is bad.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Heard a joke recently (that is to say, I didn't write it.)

A holocaust survivor dies of old age and arrives in Heaven whereupon God greets him. He tells God a holocaust joke. God says, "That's not funny." He replies, "Guess you had to be there."

 

[Sérgio Junior]

Because disasters on Earth do not indicate that God is bad.

Some people would think that the disasters that happen on earth do not indicate that God is good, and others would say that He is neither evil nor good, just indifferent and distant.