Theists vs Atheists

Booko

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I figure this is a Christian forum and they can do whatever they want.

Pretty much. Or as we used to say before Ten Intertubes, "These bees my toyz."

The owner can do what he likes. We get to choose if we want to play in the (free!) playground or not.

As for theist vs. atheist debates, they got mostly old for me a long time ago. It's like trying to debate other hot-button issues. No one is going to move off their position anyway.

If it's a conversation between theists and atheists struggling to understand the others' point of view, even if it gets heated at times, that can be interesting.
 
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Booko

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I don't think debate is allowed here because discussion, logic, and critical thinking are ways to become an atheist.

Well, Delphiki, thanks I guess (?), because this is a perfect illustration of what I just said about why debate between theists and atheists usually ends up being utterly pointless.

It starts off with "you're illogical" vs "you are unethical" and there's no point in continuing past about post #3 usually.
 
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LoAmmi

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It starts off with "you're illogical" vs "you are unethical" and there's no point in continuing past about post #3 usually.

Yes. Here's the facts:

If based upon available evidence coupled with the person's own experience, atheism is a logical position. It is not an unethical position.

If based upon available evidence coupled with the person's own experience, theism is a logical position. It is not an unethical position.

Blind belief in anything is not a logical position. It may or may not be an unethical one.
 
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Booko

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Yes. Here's the facts:

If based upon available evidence coupled with the person's own experience, atheism is a logical position. It is not an unethical position.

If based upon available evidence coupled with the person's own experience, theism is a logical position. It is not an unethical position.

Blind belief in anything is not a logical position. It may or may not be an unethical one.

Thanks, LoAmmi. This is such a clear statement of what I was trying to explain.

Without at least entertaining the idea the other "side" might be worth respecting, it never goes anywhere interesting.

<cough> <cough> Talitha's Law <cough>

:D Where is Talitha anyway? I miss her she was great to talk to!

(Wish I was any good at Wiki articles we could put Talitha's Law up there somewhere appropriate.)
 
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LoAmmi

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Thanks, LoAmmi. This is such a clear statement of what I was trying to explain.

Without at least entertaining the idea the other "side" might be worth respecting, it never goes anywhere interesting.

Even if someone is wrong, the person is worth respecting. I think that's a problem we have. This text on a screen does not register as another human being. We don't respond to each other as we would in person, but coldly and without love. It is only through some effort that we learn to care about that person behind the text. Maybe some have it easier than others, but there is a certain amount of dehumanization with message boards.


Having recently seen the movie again, the speech at the end of Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" keeps coming to mind. Part of that speech:

I should like to help everyone, if possible, Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness — not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
 
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Skavau

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Pretty much. Or as we used to say before Ten Intertubes, "These bees my toyz."

The owner can do what he likes. We get to choose if we want to play in the (free!) playground or not.

As for theist vs. atheist debates, they got mostly old for me a long time ago. It's like trying to debate other hot-button issues. No one is going to move off their position anyway.

If it's a conversation between theists and atheists struggling to understand the others' point of view, even if it gets heated at times, that can be interesting.
If that were completely true then why did General Apologetics get shafted here? Why are there changes in religious demographics? These debates (I tell you this from personal experience) certainly do have an impact on how people think. Maybe not the person you're debating with but the general observing audience.
 
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Booko

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If that were completely true then why did General Apologetics get shafted here?

Don't take that sentence you bolded as some sort of absolute. If I thought it was so universal I wouldn't bother talking with atheists, but obviously I do.

But there is a common phenomenon of atheists and theists mostly talking past each other, which is why such debates so often come to nothing.

Why are there changes in religious demographics?

Quite a few reasons.

Here's one: A religion changes (or does not change) and eventually fails to provide the spiritual and community needs of it's adherents.

These debates (I tell you this from personal experience) certainly do have an impact on how people think. Maybe not the person you're debating with but the general observing audience.

Some of the general observing audience.

Many people just don't have the disposition to be interested in such things. That isn't "right" or "wrong" -- it just is.

General Apologetics is a self-selected audience. I bet most of the people on CF were not even interested in reading it. (How I miss pinkputter about now -- she might explain this better.)

Why did CF remove the forum? I have no idea. I studiously avoided being on here while the shift was taking place. It was plenty enough to read the comments of the disaffected elsewhere where they were free to speak their thoughts. *shrug*

However, if this forum's purpose is to promote Christianity, it's not exactly illogical that they might think it's a good idea to remove a subforum that could be seen to be doing the opposite. Some others might view that as counterproductive, but they don't own the forum either.
 
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Skavau

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Booko said:
Don't take that sentence you bolded as some sort of absolute. If I thought it was so universal I wouldn't bother talking with atheists, but obviously I do.
You're listed as "Other Religion." What viewpoint would you like to change atheists to?

But there is a common phenomenon of atheists and theists mostly talking past each other, which is why such debates so often come to nothing.
That happens sometimes, but other times I observe a very different phenomenon of one side using rationalism and empiricism and the other... just not. Yes, obviously I notice the atheist/agnostic/humanist/non-religious one invoking rationalism more-so than I do the theist and that speaks to a passive bias of sorts, but I tend to observe these things objectively.

The problem is in these debates that even people who argue poorly against or for a proposition dislike the possibility that they are wrong. Their position, to them has moral value and heavy personal meaning to them. This makes it very likely that they will argue poorly for it just because the truth of what they're saying means a lot to them and essentially, they don't want to consider the implications of an error.

Here's one: A religion changes (or does not change) and eventually fails to provide the spiritual and community needs of it's adherents.
I meant in debate/discussion community setups. We can point out some obvious ones in society, but I've seen threads here where people announce their deconversion and I've seen some here point out they changed their beliefs after coming here.

I can tell you as well that (not on here) that just me debating with others has led some to deconvert, or led some to deconvert. I suspect it happens on here the other way as well, just not publicly.

Many people just don't have the disposition to be interested in such things. That isn't "right" or "wrong" -- it just is.


General Apologetics is a self-selected audience. I bet most of the people on CF were not even interested in reading it. (How I miss pinkputter about now -- she might explain this better.)
With all due respect to "pinkputter", I am not sure she could explain much on this at all.

However, if this forum's purpose is to promote Christianity, it's not exactly illogical that they might think it's a good idea to remove a subforum that could be seen to be doing the opposite. Some others might view that as counterproductive, but they don't own the forum either.
True - but it should tell them something beyond that (those that removed it).
 
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Skavau

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Just an aside:

I am listed as Judaism. Do you think I desire to change atheists into Jews?
No, and that's not why I asked Booko what he'd like to change atheists into.

I asked him that because I interpreted Booko as implying that he does want to convert atheists, chat summisation on this point:

Booko said:
[Referring to Theists and Atheists] It's like trying to debate other hot-button issues. No one is going to move off their position anyway.

I emphasised that sentence above and queried it. He then replied saying:

Booko said:
Don't take that sentence you bolded as some sort of absolute. If I thought it was so universal I wouldn't bother talking with atheists, but obviously I do.

Bold emphasis mine.
 
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Delphiki

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I would love engaging in discussion with anyone who is interested. I love providing answers and helping people better understand the Christian worldview. I have been engaging in very fruitful discussion for several weeks now and have been encouraged greatly by it. So whenever, wherever, however, I am ready.


I'm curious, then, how you feel about discussing with an atheist who is already very familiar with the Christian world view? Many atheists, especially in the U.S., used to be Christian.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Have you read the rules for that sub-forum?

It was supposed to be the replacement for General Apologetics, and it's got its rules specifically tweaked to make any real discussion impossible, stacking the deck in favour of Christianity to the degree that you can only call it "cheating" (, making you question why they have so little faith in the strength of their own arguments).

You are only allowed to post QUESTIONS, only Christians are allowed to reply, and the original poster may then ask follow-up questions (for clarification purposes only). And if your replies indicate that you do not buy the poor arguments you are given, it won't be long before somebody accuses you of "not having a real interest in learning the answers" and "just wanting to antagonize and insult Christianity".

At least that's what that forum was like the last time I visited.

It is, at least officially. It doesn't get followed all the time, and sometimes I don't think anyone cares one way or the other; but it has been unfortunate to see threads get shut down that I personally found enjoyable to participate in.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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