Theistic Evolution, Catholicism or ND?

chevyontheriver

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My point is James Barr's statement that Hebrew scholars in all world class universities fully accept the literal meaning of the text as the correct rendering just as the creationist Bible believing Christians do.
The problem is that Mr. Barr has, for whatever reason, asserted a false statement. It is untrue that all Hebrew scholars in all world class universities fully accept a fundamentalist reading of Genesis as the correct reading. That is just not the case. You can quote him all you want, but that does not make it true.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I find a certain paucity in the logic you are using there. Care to explain it??

My text says "world class universities" -- what is this "No. 4" argument. Is it your claim there can only be 3 world class universities on planet Earth???
Are there only ten such universities? How many world class universities are there? Is a professor from the twentieth ranked university something you would yawn at?

For that matter, do you even know the opinions of all of the professors of Hebrew at the top ten universities?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks for empathizing with me. I don’t know why I need to leave but I just feel uncomfortable. I too might be the only one who believes in theistic evolution and an old earth. I haven’t met anyone there who does.
While I'm not currently an official member, I have over the past couple months been regularly attending a congregation within the AALC (The American Association of Lutheran Churches, aka TAALC), formed by a number of congregations who were uncomfortable with the way the ELCA was going and formed their own synod, and which shares altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS.

It's a pretty conservative church, and officially the AALC rejects evolution; though I myself do accept the theory of evolution. I also expect that, on political and some social issues I may be in disagreement with official AALC views. That said, the word of God is preached here. The faith is confessed here. And that's what really matters to me. I'm willing to forego total and complete agreement on certain matters as long as the things that really really matter are here. Where the pulpit is used for God's word.

I feel like I should add, I had nothing but good experiences when I was with the ELCA, and never experienced anything objectionable in any of the preaching or in the confession of the faith in any congregation I was part of. But I have, admittedly, been uncomfortable in some ways with some of the things that have been allowed to happen under the ELCA banner, and perhaps the biggest issue: I wanted to know that I was part of an emphatically Confessional church.

I anticipate there will be road bumps. But I think when it comes to where we worship, we have to recognize that whatever our idealized churche(s) may look like in our minds simply don't exist in reality, and we should probably learn to let go of that. The question of supreme importance ought to be is if the central truths of Christ are here, do we agree that what is being preached as of first importance is a true and faithful preaching of the word?

If you believe that it is in the CC that you will partake and confess of the faithful truth of God's word, then that's where you should be; especially if you believe that the Catholic Church is the fullest and truest witness to Jesus. If you believe this non-denominational church is that, then on some level all that you can do is pray and go by your conscience.

All this to say, I get the difficulty here. I get that it's not easy. That it can be difficult to know where we should be because we want to be faithful to Jesus and we want to, prayerfully, rely on our conscience to aid us in making a determination of which church is most faithful so that we ourselves can partake fully in the truth. And, to make matters more difficult for us, there's no easy answer to that question. I think even the most loyal member of a congregation has to, on some level, acknowledge that we aren't granted the easy comfort of complete certainty.

While we are always going to fight and argue about whose church is God's Church, and regardless of how convinced or still confused we may be on that subject. I would like to also believe that we are works in progress, God isn't finished with us yet. And at the end of the day God is still going to get things right with us even if we bang our head on a few things or sprain our ankles a few times while we get there. That, ultimately, all any of us can really do is believe and trust in the Lord, and hope in God's grace. Not because we should say, "Oh, it doesn't matter what church you go to", but because all of our arguing and debating only gets us so far--eventually we have to confess that God has it figured out even if I don't. Let God be true, Paul says, and every man a liar.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FaithT

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While I'm not currently an official member, I have over the past couple months been regularly attending a congregation within the AALC (The American Association of Lutheran Churches, aka TAALC), formed by a number of congregations who were uncomfortable with the way the ELCA was going and formed their own synod, and which shares altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS.

It's a pretty conservative church, and officially the AALC rejects evolution; though I myself do accept the theory of evolution. I also expect that, on political and some social issues I may be in disagreement with official AALC views. That said, the word of God is preached here. The faith is confessed here. And that's what really matters to me. I'm willing to forego total and complete agreement on certain matters as long as the things that really really matter are here. Where the pulpit is used for God's word.

I feel like I should add, I had nothing but good experiences when I was with the ELCA, and never experienced anything objectionable in any of the preaching or in the confession of the faith in any congregation I was part of. But I have, admittedly, been uncomfortable in some ways with some of the things that have been allowed to happen under the ELCA banner, and perhaps the biggest issue: I wanted to know that I was part of an emphatically Confessional church.

I anticipate there will be road bumps. But I think when it comes to where we worship, we have to recognize that whatever our idealized churche(s) may look like in our minds simply don't exist in reality, and we should probably learn to let go of that. The question of supreme importance ought to be is if the central truths of Christ are here, do we agree that what is being preached as of first importance is a true and faithful preaching of the word?

If you believe that it is in the CC that you will partake and confess of the faithful truth of God's word, then that's where you should be; especially if you believe that the Catholic Church is the fullest and truest witness to Jesus. If you believe this non-denominational church is that, then on some level all that you can do is pray and go by your conscience.

All this to say, I get the difficulty here. I get that it's not easy. That it can be difficult to know where we should be because we want to be faithful to Jesus and we want to, prayerfully, rely on our conscience to aid us in making a determination of which church is most faithful so that we ourselves can partake fully in the truth. And, to make matters more difficult for us, there's no easy answer to that question. I think even the most loyal member of a congregation has to, on some level, acknowledge that we aren't granted the easy comfort of complete certainty.

While we are always going to fight and argue about whose church is God's Church, and regardless of how convinced or still confused we may be on that subject. I would like to also believe that we are works in progress, God isn't finished with us yet. And at the end of the day God is still going to get things right with us even if we bang our head on a few things or sprain our ankles a few times while we get there. That, ultimately, all any of us can really do is believe and trust in the Lord, and hope in God's grace. Not because we should say, "Oh, it doesn't matter what church you go to", but because all of our arguing and debating only gets us so far--eventually we have to confess that God has it figured out even if I don't. Let God be true, Paul says, and every man a liar.

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks for your post! I‘ve already decided to return to the LCMS. Today was my first Sunday there in weeks.

I especially like what you said here, (my husband told me pretty much the same thing). <<<<<< I anticipate there will be road bumps. But I think when it comes to where we worship, we have to recognize that whatever our idealized churche(s) may look like in our minds simply don't exist in reality, and we should probably learn to let go of that. >>>>>>
 
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The Barbarian

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Since many top Hebrew scholars acknowledge that Genesis is not meant as a literal account, Barr's claim is wrong. And it's not just a recent thing. As you have seen, ancient and medieval Hebrew scholars also admitted that the Genesis account of creation was not intended to be taken literally.
 
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BillMcEnaney

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As you all know, I’m a theistic evolutionist. I was raised Catholic and long story short left Catholicism for Lutheran LCMS. I disagree with the LCMSs teachings on the age of the earth and Biblical Creation. So now where should I go? Return to Catholicism or go to a ND church that allows belief in theistic evolution and an old earth?

This video convinced me that Genesis doesn't tell us our planet's age.

What about what denomination you should join? Well, I'll tell you why I'm still Catholic. Since I'm a traditionalist Catholic and a traditionalist conservative, I love to feel attached to the past. So I study the writings from the first 800 years of Church History. My research convinces me that those documents support Catholicism. For example, in 431, the Fathers at the Council of Ephesus believed their council taught infallibly when it condemned Nestorianism.

This document, the Historical Introduction to that council, comes from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library that Calvin College compiled. The CCEL includes a 38-volume set of writings from the early Church Dr. Philip Schaff, a Protestant historian edited.

Philip Schaff: NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Finally, Celestine himself, after the conclusion of the whole matter, sends a letter to the holy Council of Ephesus, which he thus begins: “At length we must rejoice at the conclusion of evils.” The learned reader understands where he recognizes the conclusion; that is, after the condemnation of Nestorius by the infallible authority of an Ecumenical Council, viz., of the whole Catholic Church. He proceeds: “We see, that you, with us, have executed this matter so faithfully transacted.” All decree, and all execute, that is, by giving a common judgment. Whence Celestine adds, “We have been informed of a just deposition, and a still juster exaltation:” the deposition of Nestorius, begun, indeed, by the Roman See, but brought to a conclusion by the sentence of the Council; to a full and complete settlement, as we have seen above: the exaltation of Maximianus, who was substituted in place of Nestorius immediately after the Ephesine decrees; this is the conclusion of the question. Even Celestine himself recognises this conclusion to lie not in his own examination and judgment, but in that of an Ecumenical Council. And this was done in that Council in which it is admitted that the authority of the Apostolic See was most clearly set forth, not only by words, but by deeds, of any since the birth of Christ. At least the Holy Council gives credence to Philip uttering these true and magnificent encomiums, concerning the dignity of the Apostolic See, and “Peter the head and pillar of the Faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, and by Christ’s authority administering the keys, who to this very time lives ever, and exercises judgment, in his successors.” This, he says, after having seen all the Acts of the Council itself, which we have mentioned, so that we may indeed understand, that all these privileges of Peter and the Apostolic See entirely agree with the decrees of the Council, and the judgment entered into afresh, and deliberation upon matters of Faith held after the Apostolic See.
 
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BillMcEnaney

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FaithT, during high school, I joined a Missouri Synod Lutheran youth group where everyone was wonderful. But Pastor Walter Litke and his wife were saintly, especially Mrs. Litke because she was always cheerful, even in her severe, chronic physical pain. Those two still put me to shame when they're in heaven.

Maybe you meet people who behave as Christians in church and as secularists the rest of the week. For example, some are dishonest business people or politicians who support policies they should reject. The Litkes always practiced moral virtue instead. The Christian can be hard, and it was for the pastor and his lovely wife. Our Lord wants us to take up our crosses and follow him. They always carried theirs with joyful humility I can only crave.

Our Story | oslchurch
 
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The Barbarian

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?Are you talking to me? I know that.
Yes, I thought so. Too many people think that only their denomination is the "right one." That's not how God works.
 
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