Islam The worth of a woman

mindlight

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In the Judaeo - Christian scriptures it is clear that God created male and female equal. It is a common insistence in Western secular society also that a man and a womans worth be regarded as equal.

Yet it is clear that this is not so obvious in Islam:

<<<<<<
Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses.
Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).
Quran (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).
Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse. If this is what Muhammad meant, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).
Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.
Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.
Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).>>>>>>>

How can Muslims justify this apparent denigration of women?

A Woman Worth Less than a Man in Islam
 
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mindlight

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Unfortunately its not in christianity as well. You just have to look at the threads about women in christianity to realize that.

This is not really the theme of this thread but could be used as a counter argument by Muslims saying that Christianity is no better. But it is clear from scripture than men and women are equal while as shown in the Quran that is not the case.

CREATION
Genesis 1:27
So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.


REDEMPTION
Galatians 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
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musicalpilgrim

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Zoii

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This is not really the theme of this thread but could be used as a counter argument by Muslims saying that Christianity is no better. But it is clear from scripture than men and women are equal while as shown in the Quran that is not the case.

CREATION
Genesis 1:27
So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.


REDEMPTION
Galatians 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Your theme as you state is that women are to be led by men, and lack equality under Islam. My point was...its also not equal in Christianity. Look at threads discussing the womans role in christianity and you'll note that women dont have the same rights as men and must be led by a man. So yes Muslims could say christians are no better.
 
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MustardSeeed

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Look at threads discussing the womans role in christianity and you'll note that women dont have the same rights as men and must be led by a man.

That doesn't mean they are not of equal worth. It just means that they have different roles ...
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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A theologian friend of mine holds that it is a practical application of Trinitarian vs. Unitarian views of the Godhead. Christ, though subordinate to the Father in authority, was nonetheless God in the same sense as the Father was. In light of that understanding, women are viewed as equal in Christianity, whereas in Islam, due to their subordinate status, they are viewed as inferior. Feminism actually makes the same assumption:

Your theme as you state is that women are to be led by men, and lack equality under Islam. My point was...its also not equal in Christianity. Look at threads discussing the womans role in christianity and you'll note that women dont have the same rights as men and must be led by a man.

It doesn't seem to occur to Zoii that an equal can lead an equal. Like Islam, feminism assumes that subordination of position implies inferiority of nature, for it too is a form of applied Unitarianism. It sees value in terms of worldly power, and consequently believes that to deny people power is ipso facto to oppress them...
 
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frienden thalord

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In the Judaeo - Christian scriptures it is clear that God created male and female equal. It is a common insistence in Western secular society also that a man and a womans worth be regarded as equal.

Yet it is clear that this is not so obvious in Islam:

<<<<<<
Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses.
Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).
Quran (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).
Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse. If this is what Muhammad meant, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).
Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.
Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.
Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).>>>>>>>

How can Muslims justify this apparent denigration of women?

A Woman Worth Less than a Man in Islam
Perhaps an even better question is, why do some of womens lib wear head coverings supporting such a religion.
just ponder that one a bit.
 
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MustardSeeed

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Like Islam, feminism assumes that subordination of position implies inferiority of nature, for it too is a form of applied Unitarianism. It sees value in terms of worldly power, and consequently believes that to deny people power is ipso facto to oppress them...

Exactly!
 
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frienden thalord

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mindlight

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A theologian friend of mine holds that it is a practical application of Trinitarian vs. Unitarian views of the Godhead. Christ, though subordinate to the Father in authority, was nonetheless God in the same sense as the Father was. In light of that understanding, women are viewed as equal in Christianity, whereas in Islam, due to their subordinate status, they are viewed as inferior. Feminism actually makes the same assumption:



It doesn't seem to occur to Zoii that an equal can lead an equal. Like Islam, feminism assumes that subordination of position implies inferiority of nature, for it too is a form of applied Unitarianism. It sees value in terms of worldly power, and consequently believes that to deny people power is ipso facto to oppress them...

Well said. The comparison of the Christian and the Muslim woman is that of the free woman and the slave, the beloved and the prisoner in a cage.

Male headship is also about sacrifice for the sake of a woman who is worth it not about the dominance of a woman who needs to learn her place.

The Christian view is different from the secular liberal view in that it recognises and celebrates gender diversity and complementarity. Androgyny and homosexuality are dysfunctional symptoms of a loss of gender identity and relationship. A woman was not made to live without a man and the man is lonely before he meets his companion.

The Muslim view is different because it uses these differences as an excuse to own, possess and oppress women. A woman will inherit less, her testimony is considered of less worth and she can be one of many wives rather than mans only love.
 
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mindlight

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The survival of a species is most dependent upon the female.

The female conceives.

Very few males are actually necessary.

Maybe that's why men feel self-important.
Because they're not.

That is a very secular, materialistic and reductionist viewpoint. Women are not just baby machines to be impregnated by alpha males. Human beings are made in the image of God and only thrive and achieve their full humanity in proper relationship. Survival and reproduction are symptomatic of societies that work and the measure of those cultures and gender relations is according to its response to the Divine rather than just to nature.

Islams birthrate is higher because women have less opportunity to do other things, are compelled to have children in oppressive relationships as well as being less likely to consider abortion a viable option. In that sense Muslim society is both more Christian( re Abortion) and less Christian than a Western secular one which even by its own materialistic assumptions about nature is neither surviving or reproducing.
 
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Yeah, well...
It's true that females conceive.
It's true that very few men are necessary to maintain any of God's species...

AND that's how God set things up.

Actually no that is not even true on the level you phrase it. If only alpha males impregnate women then genetic diversity is reduced. One woman one man is the best way to maximise the richness of the gene pool by ensuring that all men and women get to pass genes on rather than only a few.
 
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The Brown Brink

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Actually no that is not even true on the level you phrase it. If only alpha males impregnate women then genetic diversity is reduced. One woman one man is the best way to maximise the richness of the gene pool by ensuring that all men and women get to pass genes on rather than only a few.

The objective in God's natural world is not to ensure that all men and women "get" to pass on genes.

The objective in nature is to produce strong, healthy, intelligent offspring, whatever way it can.

These characteristics make Life good.
That's what God wants.

This means, of course, that some people perhaps shouldn't have children...
Some genetic traits should not be passed on.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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The Brown Brink said:
The survival of a species is most dependent upon the female.

The female conceives.

Very few males are actually necessary.

Maybe that's why men feel self-important.
Because they're not.

What does this have to do with Islamic teaching?
 
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The Brown Brink

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What does this have to do with Islamic teaching?

It has to do with the ridiculous title of this thread.
You want to know the worth of a woman?
I can tell you all about it.

Women hold society together.
Men tear it apart.

Track the history of mankind.
You'll find the above observation to be accurate.

Now tell me what a man is worth.
 
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