The World Needs Women Priests

[Archivist]

Could a woman be a bishop or a cardinal?

We have female bishops in the ELCA.

 

[Albion]

Not if she isn't eligible for the priesthood.

 

[Albion]

You don't become a priest because you do something, in fact the Bible tells us we are all priests (1 Peter 2), including women.

It does, but that verse means something entirely different from what we have been talking about here.

To say we are all a royal priesthood does not mean any member of the congregation has the credentials to run the service, administer the sacraments, or most of what else a pastor does. And that's very clearly laid out in the New Testament.

 

[Strong in Him]

We have female bishops in the ELCA.

There are also female bishops in the Anglican church, and female chairs of district in the Methodist church. A chair of district is someone who has pastoral charge over a number of circuits that make up a district; and cares for the clergy. A circuit varies in the number of churches that it has; ours has 23.

 

[Albion]

There are also female bishops in the Anglican church

In some Anglican churches; not in others, unless you are referring only to the Church of England and not the Anglican churches in all the other countries of the world.

But in any case, saying something like that doesn't do anything to address the question of whether all should or none should.

 

[pescador]

It does, but that verse means something entirely different from what we have been talking about here.

To say we are all a royal priesthood does not mean any member of the congregation has the credentials to run the service, administer the sacraments, or most of what else a pastor does. And that's very clearly laid out in the New Testament.

Where? A royal priesthood is just that: a priesthood. It means that any member of the congregation has the credentials to run the service, administer the sacraments, or most of what else a pastor does. There is nowhere in the New Testament that forbids this. Any prohibition has been created by those in power who imagine themselves as special, just as the Pharisee did in Luke 18:9-15...

"Jesus also told this parable to some who were confident that they were righteous and looked down on everyone else. “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed about himself like this: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: extortionists, unrighteous people, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. ...

 

[Strong in Him]

In some Anglican churches; not in others, unless you are referring only to the Church of England and not the Anglican churches in all the other countries of the world.

But in any case, saying something like that doesn't do anything to address the question of whether all should or none should.

True; but I was responding to the question about whether or not a woman could be a bishop.

Yes, I acknowledge your first point. Not all Anglicans in the UK were happy that women were ordained; some went to the catholic church as a result.

 

[Albion]

Where? A royal priesthood is just that: a priesthood.

Yes, by one sense of the word; but this unusual term (priesthood of all believers) is unlikely to mean that we are all priests doing everything that priests did or do.

And as I mentioned, if that WERE the meaning, it would make no sense then to have the same New Testament listing for us the very specific qualifications that a person needs to meet before being called by the church to the order of deacons or presbyters/bishops.

Plus, even those Protestant denominations which think that the term is to be understood more generally, do not think it means every member is a pastor, etc.

 

[Albion]

True; but I was responding to the question about whether or not a woman could be a bishop.

Well, the answer can only be yes or no. Unless, that is, we understand the question to mean "are there any denominations which do ordain women as priests, whether rightly or wrongly?"

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, the answer can only be yes or no. Unless, that is, we understand the question to mean "are there any denominations which do ordain women as priests, whether rightly or wrongly?"

The question was:

Could a woman be a bishop or a cardinal?

Not only COULD a woman be a bishop; in some places, they are.

 

[pescador]

Yes, by one sense of the word; but this unusual term (priesthood of all believers) is unlikely to mean that we are all priests doing everything that priests did or do.

And as I mentioned, if that WERE the meaning, it would make no sense then to have the same New Testament listing for us the very specific qualifications that a person needs to meet before being called by the church to the order of deacons or presbyters/bishops.

Plus, even those Protestant denominations which think that the term is to be understood more generally, do not think it means every member is a pastor, etc.

"Yes, by one sense of the word; but this unusual term (priesthood of all believers) is unlikely to mean that we are all priests doing everything that priests did or do."

Oh now I see: a priesthood, in your sense of the word, doesn't mean that we are a priesthood. => A separate class of people -- priests -- existed in the Old Covenant only <=

Peter, whom I accept as a greater authority than yourself, wrote to Christians, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."

A footnote to this refers to Exodus 19:4-6, " And now, if you will diligently listen to me and keep my covenant, then you will be my special possession out of all the nations, for all the earth is mine, and you will be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.”

Rationalize all you want in terms of modern denominational structure (which is a human (natural) construct) but the Bible clearly contradicts you.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

It does, but that verse means something entirely different from what we have been talking about here.

To say we are all a royal priesthood does not mean any member of the congregation has the credentials to run the service, administer the sacraments, or most of what else a pastor does. And that's very clearly laid out in the New Testament.

I agree, the issue is in the use of the word 'priest' instead of pastor/overseer or whatever term is used for leadership.

 

[Albion]

The question was:


Not only COULD a woman be a bishop; in some places, they are.

? Then what's the argument here all about? Some denominations have women bishops. Yes, we all know that.

 

[Albion]

I agree, the issue is in the use of the word 'priest' instead of pastor/overseer or whatever term is used for leadership.

Well, it's also about the particular meaning of the word priest when used in that verse. It does not refer to an ordained presbyter AKA priest or elder or bishop or cleric of any order. Not in that verse which refers to the 'priesthood of all believers.'

 

[Paidiske]

Another one of these threads; it's been a while. At least this one started from a positive position.

The world needs women priests
to help women in poor countries get an education and jobs...

Does the world need women priests?

Well, since God calls some women to priestly ordination, it seems that God thinks the world needs women as priests (or needs a church with women amongst its clergy).

That said, I would question whether the work you identify for us is properly the work of the clergy. To work to mitigate poverty is work that belongs to the whole (priestly) Church, and not just the priests (elders/clergy).

I have - in the six years I've been a priest - often reflected on whether there is any material difference in the priestly ministry of men and women (or whether our gender has any bearing on the priestly work we do). I would observe that the pastoral care (including its sacramental dimensions) of people with particular needs, such as abuse survivors, rape survivors, and so forth, tends to fall disproportionately to women. I find that such survivors seek out myself and other female colleagues in preference to approaching our male colleagues.

That is not, in and of itself, a strong enough argument for the ordination of women, I think, even on the basis of "Here is a work that we need women for, which men can't do, or aren't suited to;" but it is perhaps a reason to be grateful for it.

It is a mystery to me why God calls some people (men and women) to ordination, but not others, even others who are clearly gifted and would have much to bring to the role. But it is very clear to me that God, in God's wisdom, does call both men and women; and for me that overrides all the arguments offered in rejection of the ministry of women. When God calls, our duty is to say yes and obey faithfully and with all the strength and integrity we have to bring to it.

According to the Catholic Church only a male priest can represent Jesus at the Last Supper during Holy Communion.

A woman priest could still hear confessions, anoint the sick, or preform weddings.

This, though, I would have a problem with. The priesthood is not something to be divided up into discrete tasks, allowing some and forbidding others (notwithstanding that in some exceptional circumstances a bishop may withhold authority for particular functions). If you would not allow a woman to preside at communion, I would argue that that is not really priesthood at all. You seem to be describing more of a diaconal role (except for hearing confessions).

Could a woman be a bishop or a cardinal?

Sure. My church has women as bishops. As for cardinals, I have heard that the only reason being a cardinal is limited to ordained men is custom, not doctrine; and that it would even be possible to appoint a lay woman (perhaps the head of a religious order, or the like) to be a cardinal. So there is no real obstacle there.

 

[dzheremi]

In 2012 the discovery of a small fragment of a previosly unknown gospel was announced. It has been named the “Gospel of Jesus' Wife.” A partial sentence on this fragment has Jesus say "Jesus said to them, 'my wife' …." The fragment written in the Coptic language of Egypt is thought to be a translation of a Greek text from the second century.

Not that I think it will change your mind if you're convinced of 'women priests', but this so-called "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" was proven to be a modern forgery very soon after it was supposedly 'discovered'. Here's a video on it from YouTube channel "Religion for Breakfast" (run by a Ph.D. candidate in religious studies specializing in early Christian history at Boston University), from five years ago:

 

[Strong in Him]

? Then what's the argument here all about? Some denominations have women bishops. Yes, we all know that.

I wasn't arguing.
I was responding to the question, "could a woman be a bishop?" Archivist had first replied saying that there are female bishops in ECLA - why are you just picking on my reply?

 

[pescador]

It does, but that verse means something entirely different from what we have been talking about here.

To say we are all a royal priesthood does not mean any member of the congregation has the credentials to run the service, administer the sacraments, or most of what else a pastor does. And that's very clearly laid out in the New Testament.

Credentials? So some priests are more equal than others? (Channeling George Orwell)

 

[dzheremi]

Credentials? So some priests are more equal than others? (Channeling George Orwell)

Not to answer for Albion who is perfectly capable of doing so himself, but it's worth remembering that even while preserving this idea of the priesthood of believers, the Jews still maintained a distinct priestly class for the performance of temple ritual and so on. This is kept in traditional Christianity, wherein any priest is not "more equal" than anyone, but that doesn't therefore mean that any given person is therefore fit to serve in the altar. This is what is behind, e.g., vesting of the celebrants (priests, deacons, etc.), the tonsuring of readers, etc. It's not an acknowledgement that they are doing anything I could not do (I can read, recite, chant, etc.), only that they are set apart for that purpose whereas my purpose is to be a member of the laity. I don't think it's a mistake, for instance, that the etymological root for priest in Coptic (owiib) is the same as the word for holy/saint (ethowab). Anyone could be a saint, but not everyone is just by virtue of showing up.

 

[Albion]

Credentials? So some priests are more equal than others?

Credentials. -- Just a way of saying that the NT describes needed qualifications and tells us that the congregations, the household of God, called certain people to the role.

They did not simply say that they had felt a call, therefore nothing more was necessary before they assumed the role of deacon or pastor.