The Works Based Salvation

[rockytopva]

And to let Brother James tell it best...

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16-7 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18-9 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2

 

[DingDing]

and your question/comment is what exactly?

 

[rockytopva]

and your question/comment is what exactly?

In this time most peoples works are in regards to their own personal empire. And to some there are no works at all! In other words... Very lazy! It is hard to get the simplest of prayer meetings going in this time much less any good movement or revival for God.

 

[DingDing]

In this time most peoples works are in regards to their own personal empire. And to some there are no works at all! In other words... Very lazy! It is hard to get the simplest of prayer meetings going in this time much less any good movement or revival for God.

Perhaps that could have something to do with the easy believe-ism which is so very prevalent. It is kind of hard to get people involved in the cause of Christ when so many are told that such involvement is not required.

 

[SeventyOne]

You miss the scope of the passage you are citing and it's right there around verses 18 and 19. The target is justification in the eyes of other men. We can tell who is justified based on their works, or if you want to get technical, by their fruit. James is proving the proposition in verse 14, stating that if a man has faith he will also have works. You even quoted the part about Abraham. We can see his faith by his works, but his justification before God was his belief (v23) not his actions, but his justification before men are his works, proving his faith.

 

[DingDing]

You miss the scope of the passage you are citing and it's right there around verses 18 and 19. The target is justification in the eyes of other men. We can tell who is justified based on their works, or if you want to get technical, by their fruit. James is proving the proposition in verse 14, stating that if a man has faith he will also have works. You even quoted the part about Abraham. We can see his faith by his works, but his justification before God was his belief (v23) not his actions, but his justification before men are his works, proving his faith.

And as James says, faith without works is dead. And we should all recognize that a dead faith does not save. James is qualifying what should be meant when someone says they have faith. And as Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. The good tree produces good fruit, and the bad tree produces bad fruit. Every tree is known by its fruit.

 

[CodyFaith]

Christ will look to the fruits to tell whether a tree is good or bad.

Thus, by the fruits is a man justified, because if the fruit is good one can tell if the tree is.

Aka, those who believe in Christ are good trees, and their fruits will show it and justify them.

You're fighting against the gospel itself when you preach anything other than believing in Christ is enough for salvation.

 

[EmSw]

You miss the scope of the passage you are citing and it's right there around verses 18 and 19. The target is justification in the eyes of other men. We can tell who is justified based on their works, or if you want to get technical, by their fruit. James is proving the proposition in verse 14, stating that if a man has faith he will also have works. You even quoted the part about Abraham. We can see his faith by his works, but his justification before God was his belief (v23) not his actions, but his justification before men are his works, proving his faith.

This is not about justifying ourselves before men, and certainly not our target. Jesus told us about those who justify themselves before men.

Luke 16
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

If your target or goal is to be justified before men, then your justification is an abomination in the sight of God. In fact, this makes you a Pharisee.

 

[EmSw]

Christ will look to the fruits to tell whether a tree is good or bad.

Thus, by the fruits is a man justified, because if the fruit is good one can tell if the tree is.

Aka, those who believe in Christ are good trees, and their fruits will show it and justify them.

You're fighting against the gospel itself when you preach anything other than believing in Christ is enough for salvation.

Are you saying without good fruit, a man isn't justified? If so, then it is our good works which justifies us.

A good tree isn't known by their belief in Christ; it's known by their fruit.

 

[CodyFaith]

This is not about justifying ourselves before men, and certainly not our target. Jesus told us about those who justify themselves before men.

Luke 16
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

If your target or goal is to be justified before men, then your justification is an abomination in the sight of God. In fact, this makes you a Pharisee.

 

[CodyFaith]

Are you saying without good fruit, a man isn't justified? If so, then it is our good works which justifies us.

A good tree isn't known by their belief in Christ; it's known by their fruit.

Those who believe will have good fruit.

Christ will look at one's works and be pleased or he won't be. He will be pleased if he sees fruit from trees that believe, he won't be pleased if he sees fruits from trees that don't believe.

You are justified in God's sight by works because a tree is "known by it's fruit". Matthew 12:33

He looks to the fruit to tell if they've believed or not, because, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

 

[CodyFaith]

How can you tell if a tree is good? You look at it's fruits, if the fruits are terrible, it means the tree itself is terrible.

Meaning, Christ will prove that we are those who have believed, if he inspects our fruit and it is good. If it's good, it means we are the trees who believed.

 

[DingDing]

How can you tell if a tree is good? You look at it's fruits, if the fruits are terrible, it means the tree itself is terrible.
...

And some trees either have no fruit, or try to hid/disguise their fruit. These can take more time for us to discern (but God knows their heart). (And having either no fruit or disguised/hidden fruit is usually not a good sign - especially when ample time for fruit-bearing has elapsed.)

 

[EmSw]

Those who believe will have good fruit.

Christ will look at one's works and be pleased or he won't be. He will be pleased if he sees fruit from trees that believe, he won't be pleased if he sees fruits from trees that don't believe.

You are justified in God's sight by works because a tree is "known by it's fruit". Matthew 12:33

He looks to the fruit to tell if they've believed or not, because, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

How is it you say WILL have good fruit if one believes? Fruit isn't immediately produced, even on a good tree. The parable of the fig tree illustrates this perfectly.

Luke 13
6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’

The fig tree is certainly a good tree. It provides uses for man. Yet, the man sought fruit after waiting three years, and found none. So a good tree doesn't automatically produce good fruit.

 

[EmSw]

How can you tell if a tree is good? You look at it's fruits, if the fruits are terrible, it means the tree itself is terrible.

Meaning, Christ will prove that we are those who have believed, if he inspects our fruit and it is good. If it's good, it means we are the trees who believed.

And what if He finds no fruit on the good tree?

 

[EmSw]

CodyFaith, do you still believe we should justify ourselves before men?

 

[CodyFaith]

How is it you say WILL have good fruit if one believes? Fruit isn't immediately produced, even on a good tree. The parable of the fig tree illustrates this perfectly.

Luke 13
6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’

The fig tree is certainly a good tree. It provides uses for man. Yet, the man sought fruit after waiting three years, and found none. So a good tree doesn't automatically produce good fruit.

The fig tree that bared no fruit is a tree that didn't believe. They are false Christians. You can believe that you have believed without having believed. I mean, look at how many Christians are in the world today, yet Christ said only a few will enter. Many Christians play "religion" it seems, without actually believing.

And what if He finds no fruit on the good tree?

Impossible. A good tree bares good fruit, Christ says so. Matthew 7:18

CodyFaith, do you still believe we should justify ourselves before men?

No, but your post was seemingly directed towards that person personally in a way.

 

[MWood]

After all that has been said in the above 17 posts, tell if you will, Just what are the requirements for salvation/eternal life? Just a list if you will, no explanations. Each of you give me your own list.

 

[DingDing]

After all that has been said in the above 17 posts, tell if you will, Just what are the requirements for salvation/eternal life? Just a list if you will, no explanations. Each of you give me your own list.

Paul says it like this in Acts 20:21. Both repentance and faith are required. There are heated arguments over what each of these two terms mean. This thread started out addressing what 'faith' means. Some want to say that 'faith' is nothing more than believing Jesus died for your sins, but scripture reveals that 'faith' is much more than that. It is believing in Jesus: Who He said He was, and what He taught. This last part, His teachings, gets lost/discarded by many, which is why Jesus asked what He asked in Luke 6:46.

Is this enough for starters?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

If Heaven was located way out in space somewhere.
Upon my death my good works would not even get me to the moon.

Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

M-Bob