The Works Based Salvation Demolition Crew

[Cris413]

It seems their wrecking ball is in full swing here in ND.

Those who adhere to this ideology and wish to keep the shackles of bondage to the LAW…that’s all fine and well…and between you and God…however keep in mind…if one observes the LAW…the must observe ALL the LAW.

Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
Jas 2:9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


I would ask that you consider the wisdom in trying to place those chains on others while basically taking a sledgehammer to the grace and mercy offered by Christ Jesus at the cross.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Joh 8:33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, "You will be made free'?"
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
Joh 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
Joh 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


Now I'm not going to debate this issue ad nauseam...however...I would like to point out...propagating an ideology that is in direct conflict with soooo much Scripture...is NOT SOUND TEACHING.

 

[wherethebiblespeaks]

Hmmm...I'm afraid I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this post. It seems to me that you are alluding to the idea that we can be saved and have a non-obedient faith. Perhaps you could be a little more concise as to what you are inferring?

 

[Cris413]

Hmmm...I'm afraid I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this post. It seems to me that you are alluding to the idea that we can be saved and have a non-obedient faith. Perhaps you could be a little more concise as to what you are inferring?

That's not what I'm saying or alluding to at all...

What I'm saying...and I believe quite clearly...is that we are no longer in bondage to the Law. Observance and obedience to the Law...in our own strength...serving the Law...demolishes the grace offered at the Cross.

Works based salvation is not sound Scriptural teaching as it is in conflict with major portions of Scripture.

We are not obedient because we observe the Law. We are not saved because we are obedient to the Law...Paul understood that quite clearly.

And why are we obedient? Are we obedient because the Law says we should be obedient to IT...or do we have a heart of obedience because we love Christ Jesus and are grateful and thankful for His propitiation for our sins?

Obedience is not observance of the Law...Obedience comes from Christ in us, whom we love and serve...WE DO NOT SERVE THE LAW.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

I understand where you are coming from. For many years I believed that my salvation was also dependent on my strict obedience to The Law. There are those preachers that put that message out there and it makes you walk around in fear and terrible guilt rather than Grace. That's one of the big reasons why people leave the faith or don't want anything to do with it.

 

[Cris413]

I posted this in another thread...I think it would be well served here:

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Rom 9:33 As it is written:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--

And at the risk of being redundant:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


As I say...I'm not going to argue this point ad nauseam...

as we also need to take this instruction to heart as well:

Avoid Dissension
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
Tit 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
Tit 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.


I'm just posting this to strongly encourage others to prayerfully search the Scriptures regarding such things.

 

[wherethebiblespeaks]

I assume we are speaking of the Law of Moses? No..?

 

[Cris413]

I assume we are speaking of the Law of Moses? No..?

One should however consider...the Law of Moses ~ moral law is just as valid today as it was when it was given...

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law...not only did He not abolish the Law...but He certainly raised the bar concerning the Law...The Sermon on the Mount is quite clear on that...

...which shows us plainly...our desperate need of our Lord and Savior in that He and He alone did for us...what the Law could not do.


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
Rom 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Eccl12and13]

It seems their wrecking ball is in full swing here in ND.

Those who adhere to this ideology and wish to keep the shackles of bondage to the LAW…that’s all fine and well…and between you and God…however keep in mind…if one observes the LAW…the must observe ALL the LAW.

So what's your point? You make it sound as though since it is impossible to keep ALL of the law, we are not to try to keep any of it.

The writer was just reminding us that you can't break one law and one law only. You can not choose, you can not have a favorite. If you break the law against lying, it is not like you didn't break the law against murder because you might as well have done murder if you lied.

Let me ask you this; how many of MAN law do you TRY TO KEEP? I bet you go out of your way TO KEEP mans laws don't you?

How many tax laws do you try NOT TO BREAK? How many civil laws do you try NOT TO BREAK? God gave us approx. 613 laws and guess what He said about them?

1 John 5
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Cris413]

So what's your point? You make it sound as though since it is impossible to keep ALL of the law, we are not to try to keep any of it.

The writer was just reminding us that you can't break one law and one law only. You can not choose, you can not have a favorite. If you break the law against lying, it is not like you didn't break the law against murder because you might as well have done murder if you lied.

Let me ask you this; how many of MAN law do you TRY TO KEEP? I bet you go out of your way TO KEEP mans laws don't you?

How many tax laws do you try NOT TO BREAK? How many civil laws do you try NOT TO BREAK? God gave us approx. 613 laws and guess what He said about them?

1 John 5
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Take it as you wish...but you are however putting your meaning into what I've presented...I think it's clear what Scripture teaches us in the full measure...and deflecting to what laws of man I do or do not keep is irrelevant.

The point being if one observes the Law...one must observe ALL the Law...not just pick and choose those Laws one perceives he/she can observe in their own strength...which would be burdensome indeed.

And as you point out...there are approx 613 Laws...some are MUST DOs and some are MUST DO NOTs...and if one is justified by the Law...they MUST obey the Law FULLY...it's quite simple.

You quote 1 John 5:3...which is prefaced by:

1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

then comes:

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


and why are they not burdensome...


Because:


1Jn 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


What happens when we cherry pick Scripture....basically we are trying to conform Scripture to our own understanding...rather than allowing Scripture to conform our understanding.

 

[wherethebiblespeaks]

I think what Eccl was trying to say is that he doesn't understand where you are going with this. I think it is pretty clear that no one in this thread believes in adhering to the law of Moses. Christ nailed the law to the cross (Colossians 2:14) and he is the mediator between the two testaments (Hebrews 9:15-17)

So we, are after the law Ma'am. I don't understand the point that you are trying to make here...I'm just as dumb as I can be.

 

[Cris413]

I may consider I'm over-reacting...I dunno

ND was my home forum for quite a long time...I finally left because it was nothing but thread after thread of works based salvation...either to obtain it...or maintain it...it was all very discouraging...not to mention no sound Scriptural support for it.

I peeked back in recently...hoping something had changed...and many of the thread titles and content still allude to the same thing...works based salvation...observance of the Law...Paul is the minister of death and such

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of these threads...it's possible...

...just wanted to give some time to the message of grace...which seemed to have gotten lost.

so...I'll just be on my way back out...sorry for the intrusion

 

[SoundCard]

I can tell you you aren't alone in this. Too often I see people claiming that God's grace isn't enough, that somehow these deeds we do which are but rags to the Lord are somehow enough to save our souls, if that were the case than there was never a need for Christ to offer Himself on our behalf if all we had to do was work towards salvation. If it were ever attainable by human effort, than Christ died for nothing. But since this is not the case, He remains the Narrow Gate, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. There is no secondary pass to God, there is no additional road that leads to the Lord, only salvation and salvation alone in Christ can save us. What seems to happen all too often is that people somehow think Salvation/Sanctification are two in the same.

Salvation came first, Sanctification came afterwards. Christ saved us, allowing us to begin a true walk with the Lord without condemnation hanging over our heads, where we no longer have to hide behind the blood of bulls and lambs to cover our sins, when true atonement has come. We finally enter into a full relationship with God, with Christ at the side of the Father as our intecessor, so that even when we do fall short, Christ is there to present our case to the Father, who is pleased by the Son, whom He sees in us by way of the Cross. We in Christ and Christ in us. We are called the Body of Christ for a reason people! God will not disown His own!

 

[Cris413]

I can tell you you aren't alone in this. Too often I see people claiming that God's grace isn't enough, that somehow these deeds we do which are but rags to the Lord are somehow enough to save our souls, if that were the case than there was never a need for Christ to offer Himself on our behalf if all we had to do was work towards salvation. If it were ever attainable by human effort, than Christ died for nothing. But since this is not the case, He remains the Narrow Gate, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. There is no secondary pass to God, there is no additional road that leads to the Lord, only salvation and salvation alone in Christ can save us. What seems to happen all too often is that people somehow think Salvation/Sanctification are two in the same.

Salvation came first, Sanctification came afterwards. Christ saved us, allowing us to begin a true walk with the Lord without condemnation hanging over our heads, where we no longer have to hide behind the blood of bulls and lambs to cover our sins, when true atonement has come. We finally enter into a full relationship with God, with Christ at the side of the Father as our intecessor, so that even when we do fall short, Christ is there to present our case to the Father, who is pleased by the Son, whom He sees in us by way of the Cross. We in Christ and Christ in us. We are called the Body of Christ for a reason people! God will not disown His own!

Exactly...

And my point is...essentially what those who teach works are taking a wrecking ball to the cross.

IMHO...if one wishes to work to show themselves approved in fear of losing salvation...that's all well and good and between them and God. However, to teach others this is the way to gain or maintain salvation...not so good.

Trying to drag others back into bondage to the Law...or get them so focused on good works...they miss the grace and mercy offered at the cross.

I spent a good many years struggling with how to get right with God...what did I have to do to get right with God...how "good" did I have to be to stay right with God.

I was so busy being about doing good works...I couldn't see His work. And it is truly amazing the work HE did once I got out of His way and allowed HIM to do it.

Anything "good" I do has nothing to do with me...it's all about HIM...

Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

And you are quite right...salvation is immediate...sanctification is a process...Christ working in us and through us...not any work we are capable of doing ourselves.

Justification comes through the blood of the Lamb.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[dies-l]

I posted this in another thread...I think it would be well served here:

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Rom 9:33 As it is written:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--

And at the risk of being redundant:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


As I say...I'm not going to argue this point ad nauseam...

as we also need to take this instruction to heart as well:

Avoid Dissension
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
Tit 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
Tit 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.


I'm just posting this to strongly encourage others to prayerfully search the Scriptures regarding such things.

I don't want to debate, but I would like some clarification. Too often in this discussion people will use words like "faith" and "law" without ever defining what they mean, and their meaning is not at all self evident. So, let me ask you this: According to your belief on this question, is it possible for a person who is wilfully and consistently disobedient (in this case, I mean a person who makes absolutely no sincere effort to obey Christ) saved based simply on that persons profession of faith? Or, is complete and wilful disobedience entirely inconsistent with that person's profession of faith?

 

[Cris413]

I don't want to debate, but I would like some clarification. Too often in this discussion people will use words like "faith" and "law" without ever defining what they mean, and their meaning is not at all self evident. So, let me ask you this: According to your belief on this question, is it possible for a person who is wilfully and consistently disobedient (in this case, I mean a person who makes absolutely no sincere effort to obey Christ) saved based simply on that persons profession of faith? Or, is complete and wilful disobedience entirely inconsistent with that person's profession of faith?

Firstly...I would never assume to judge the salvation of another...whether they are or will be saved.

Secondly...I would consider...regarding one's fruit...if it is pure disobedience and rebellion...one might want to consider if they are truly saved...and they just may be and simply backslidden...that is for each to discern for themselves...not for us to judge regarding their salvation...which is what I consider James is speaking of when he teaches:

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Works is a byproduct of faith...faith is not a byproduct of works...which I believe you yourself have mentioned in another thread...

always keeping in mind...there is however a difference between salvation...and santification....as well...having "fleshly" moments does not always mean the heart is continually working in the flesh...there is that constant struggle between the flesh and Spirit...and will continue to be so as long as we walk around in these earthen vessels...

Salvation, sanctification...and justification...all important as we give our lives to Christ Jesus and understand where our justification lies...and that is in Christ and Christ alone.

I think Webster's gives quite an adequate definition:

Faith:

2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Law:

1 a (1): a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority

2 aoften capitalized : the revelation of the will of God set forth in the Old Testament bcapitalized : the first part of the Jewish scriptures : pentateuch, torah

Faith...where do we place our trust in Christ Jesus...or in the Law?

Where does our "effort" lie? Do we strive in our own strength to obey the Law or do we place our faith and trust in Christ Jesus...to complete the work He began in us?

It's either all about us...what we do...or all about Him...what He's already done and continues to do...for us.

 

[rob64]

i agree with the OP
We live in a society that is driven to "do it yourself", as well as "make yourself look better, feel better, etc...

When someone tries to tie "the law" and grace together, the result is BONDAGE.

i often read these words on forum posts; "Grace set us free from the law", or, "We're no longer under the law".

i used to think the same way, and use the same phrases.

Then i read a book one time that showed me that GENTILES WERE NEVER UNDER THE LAW IN THE FIRST PLACE. It changed my entire outlook on this "law" business.
Certain scripture was written to JEWS WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW AT ONE TIME. And certain authors of the NT were theirselves JEWS.

When you figure out things like; the law was given to God's chosen people, and not to gentiles, and; Gentiles are not "set free" from the law, because they "don't have the law", and; Us gentiles were "grafted into" grace, and; Hebrews was written to JEWS WHO WANTED TO CONTINUE ANIMAL SACRIFICE, AND HAVE GRACE.- You start to see grace and "the law" in a different way. The NT starts to make sence.

GENTILES WERE NOT UNDER THE LAW TO START WITH, SO HOW CAN A GENTILE SAY, "I'M NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW".

For those under GRACE, we are under a different type of law; "For the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the LAW of sin and death".

Ever heard of the LAW of liberty?

Look up "LAW" in the greek, and you will see that there are other "kinds" of laws. Such as laws of nature, and laws of PRINCIPAL They are not laws to be obedient to, but laws that God and only God set forth.

The law of liberty/law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, that's the law we are under. It releases us from the law of sin and death.
The law of sin and death is not a law to be obeyed either. It's a law of principal, our "spiritual death sentance" inherited from Adam.

Any salvation teaching other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified, is ANTICHRIST.
The law is works. It enables man to "boast" about what he has done.
GRACE is liberty, LIFE. It's God doing everything for us. We can't take credit for anything.

 

[dies-l]

Firstly...I would never assume to judge the salvation of another...whether they are or will be saved.

I agree that we do not have the knowledge or authority to judge others. The reason for my question was to explore what we mean when we use the word faith, by exploring a hypothetical extreme. Sometimes people act as though faith has nothing to do with how a person behaves. As if faith is nothing more than professing to believe something that cannot be proven with our senses. I don't think that this is what Paul was talking about when he talked about salvation by grace through faith. I think of faith is the act of making the object of our faith a main priority in our lives. For example, when we say that a man is unfaithful to his wife, we don't mean that he has stopped believing that she exists; rather, we mean that he has ceased to make her the romantic priority in his life, specifically by allowing another woman to interfere with the relationship.

But, even if we look at faith from the aspect of belief, our actions and our beliefs are inseparable. For example, think about a person in a room on the top floor of a top building. The person soon learns that the building is on fire and that the only escape is through the window. The person also is told that there is net that has been placed to catch him if he jumps and that the net will ensure the he will be unharmed. Now, if the person tells us that he believes all of the facts that he has been given, one of two assumptions can be correctly made. Either he will attempt to jump into the net or there is at least on the facts provided that he does not believe. If he does not jump, either he does not believe that the building is on fire or that his only
means of escape is from the window or that the net will protect his safety.

In the same way, a person who has placed their faith in Jesus will attempt to obey His commands. In the fire hypothetical, the person may jump out of the wrong window, or he may not be able to open the window, or he might find that the he does not fit through the window, or for some other reason, he may fail to land safely in the net. It is his effort, not his success, that demonstrates the sincerity of his belief. Similarly, it is the sincerity of our effort to obey Christ, not our success that evidences our faith. This is how I think salvation by grace through faith differs from a works or law based salvation. If we are judged by the law, then anything that falls short of perfection is failure. If we are judge by grace, through faith, then our faith is all that is needed, but faith, if it is genuine,will inevitably have an impact on the decisions that we make. We may not be perfect and we may make poor and even sinful choices, but genuine faith will instill in us a desire to grow and obey and a sincerity in our effort to do so.

That is what I have come to believe about the relationship about the relationship between faith and works, taking into account both the writings of Paul and James. Would you say that this is consistent, generally speaking, with your view of faith?

Secondly...I would consider...regarding one's fruit...if it is pure disobedience and rebellion...one might want to consider if they are truly saved...and they just may be and simply backslidden...that is for each to discern for themselves...not for us to judge regarding their salvation...which is what I consider James is speaking of when he teaches:

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Works is a byproduct of faith...faith is not a byproduct of works...which I believe you yourself have mentioned in another thread...

I generally agree with this.

always keeping in mind...there is however a difference between salvation...and santification....as well...having "fleshly" moments does not always mean the heart is continually working in the flesh...there is that constant struggle between the flesh and Spirit...and will continue to be so as long as we walk around in these earthen vessels...

Agreed. The standard is the sincerity of our faith, not the success of our efforts.

 

[Cris413]

<portions snipped>I agree that we do not have the knowledge or authority to judge others. The reason for my question was to explore what we mean when we use the word faith,

Scripture is the best place to make these determinations:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Hebrews 11 goes into great detail regarding faith. Faith is generally not a verb, however we can put "feet to faith" "step out in faith" absolutely...but our actions are not faith...our actions are guided by faith and that faith doesn't rest in ourselves...but rather in God...who is faithful.

by exploring a hypothetical extreme. Sometimes people act as though faith has nothing to do with how a person behaves. As if faith is nothing more than professing to believe something that cannot be proven with our senses. I don't think that this is what Paul was talking about when he talked about salvation by grace through faith.

I think it's important to take a look at the Scripture and make note of some very important verbiage for clarification:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Meaning faith is not what we've achieved....it's what we've received, (by hearing)....and salvation is a free gift which we receive through our faith in Christ Jesus according to His grace. God has already prepared our good works...and we walk in them how? IN Christ by faith that He is exactly Whom He said He is. Not in our ability to put one foot in front of the other in our own strength...IMHO

I think of faith is the act of making the object of our faith a main priority in our lives.

We can't help but do that...Christ in us and us in Him. It's not our "act" but His. We love Him because He first loved us. Now...we can turn our backs on Him...but not for very long...again...by faith in Him and trust that His words are true. Christ said:

Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and My Father are one."

And of course Paul reinforces this is in Romans 8:38 & 39

So you see...it's not by faith in anything other than Christ that establishes my faith...as we TRUST in who He is. It's my proclamation of faith in Him...not in my ability to put feet to faith...so...even in putting feet to faith...they are His feet...in the Body of Christ...not my feet.

I do agree however that we are to continually renew our minds and set our minds on Christ Jesus...but that's not an action of faith...that is continually offering ourselves as living sacrifices...basically...all we need to do is be WILLING....God does the rest...and even then...we need to pray God give us a heart of obedience and a willingness to serve Him. Our nature is sinful rebellion. Christ’s nature is obedience to the will of the Father.

But, even if we look at faith from the aspect of belief, our actions and our beliefs are inseparable.

Not necessarily. I'm sure many people could look at my actions here and there and consider I'm a non-believer. I mess up sometimes...but that's not my heart. As soon as I mess up...I know...BAM...messed up...I'm convicted and I repent and I'm forgiven. And yes...I may do that same exact mess up again...and some never again.

Many Christians don't believe in divorce...yet many Christians are divorced. I believe we are to obey the laws of the land...yet sometimes...I speed. I believe lying is a sin...sometimes I tell white lies (oh yes..you're new hair style looks cute) or lies of ommission.

I do agree there should be evidence of a transformed (transforming) life...but that's sanctification...a process that doesn't happen over night and never happens fully in our lifetime...justification is immediate upon accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior...both come through Him and Him alone.

And I certainly don't want people to look at my good works and go...wow...now there's a mighty woman of God. 'Cause it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with me.... It's ALL HIM.

For example, think about a person in a room on the top floor of a top building. The person soon learns that the building is on fire and that the only escape is through the window. The person also is told that there is net that has been placed to catch him if he jumps and that the net will ensure the he will be unharmed. Now, if the person tells us that he believes all of the facts that he has been given, one of two assumptions can be correctly made. Either he will attempt to jump into the net or there is at least on the facts provided that he does not believe. If he does not jump, either he does not believe that the building is on fire or that his only
means of escape is from the window or that the net will protect his safety.

This kinda confused me a little bit...but what I've concluded is...I have absolutely no faith in windows, nor nets...now...I may have "hope" I'll fit through the window...and "hope" the net will catch me.

In the same way, a person who has placed their faith in Jesus will attempt to obey His commands.

I no longer attempt to obey His commands...I fail...I have a heart to be obedient though...I'm willing.

In the fire hypothetical, the person may jump out of the wrong window, or he may not be able to open the window, or he might find that the he does not fit through the window, or for some other reason, he may fail to land safely in the net. It is his effort, not his success, that demonstrates the sincerity of his belief.

It tells me he didn't pray about it first... No...seriously...I don't think it has anything to with our effort...'cause we are basically relying on our own efforts to save ourselves...and that's not the way it works...particularly if death is the end result....our effort was certainly in vain and the result...is still death.

Faith however...is understanding...live or die...we are safe in Christ Jesus...and sincerity of our belief is evident in trusting that...

I'm already in the net...whether I leave the burning building...or not...

Trust that is the external evidence of my belief...not whether or not I make the right decisions.

Now...if the building is burning...and there is a window...and firemen with a net...certainly I will try the window...and "hope" it opens...and "hope" I fit and "hope" they catch me. Scripture also tells us not to test God...

Similarly, it is the sincerity of our effort to obey Christ, not our success that evidences our faith. This is how I think salvation by grace through faith differs from a works or law based salvation. If we are judged by the law, then anything that falls short of perfection is failure.

I think we basically agree...but I'm still not comfortable with the word "effort" there is no effort...it simply is a heart of obedience. "Create in me a new heart Oh Lord" or "Circumcize my heart Lord" This is what I pray for.

If we are judge by grace, through faith, then our faith is all that is needed, but faith, if it is genuine,will inevitably have an impact on the decisions that we make.

I don't think we are judged by grace at all. Grace is receiving what we don't deserve....reconciliation to Holy God in spite of our sin...just as mercy is not receiving what we DO deserve...the righteous wrath of God because of our sin.

We may not be perfect and we may make poor and even sinful choices, but genuine faith will instill in us a desire to grow and obey and a sincerity in our effort to do so.

Again...where's the effort...effort implies something is burdensome...and requires effort…but I think we are basically in agreement.

That is what I have come to believe about the relationship about the relationship between faith and works, taking into account both the writings of Paul and James. Would you say that this is consistent, generally speaking, with your view of faith?

I think I've shared that above...in prolly waaaayyyy to much detail....I may not totally agree with the analogies you shared…but I think we do agree in the basic fundaments…

Agreed. The standard is the sincerity of our faith, not the success of our efforts.

Yep...

 

[Eccl12and13]

"The point being if one observes the Law...one must observe ALL the Law...not just pick and choose"What happens when we cherry pick Scripture....basically we are trying to conform Scripture to our own understanding...rather than allowing Scripture to conform our understanding.

First:

What is wrong with TRYING to keep all of Gods laws? Let me ask you this: If I try to keep ALL of Gods laws to the best of my ability, what do you think my reward will be?

Second:

Cherry picking the scriptures, as you call it, is what we are SUPPOSED TO DO! That's what the bible tells us. You have to search the scriptures:

Isa.28
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
[13] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Acts 17
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Eccl12and13]

It seems their wrecking ball is in full swing here in ND.

Those who adhere to this ideology and wish to keep the shackles of bondage to the LAW&#8230;that&#8217;s all fine and well&#8230;and between you and God&#8230;however keep in mind&#8230;if one observes the LAW&#8230;the must observe ALL the LAW.

Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
Jas 2:9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


I would ask that you consider the wisdom in trying to place those chains on others while basically taking a sledgehammer to the grace and mercy offered by Christ Jesus at the cross.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Joh 8:33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, "You will be made free'?"
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
Joh 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
Joh 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


Now I'm not going to debate this issue ad nauseam...however...I would like to point out...propagating an ideology that is in direct conflict with soooo much Scripture...is NOT SOUND TEACHING.

Let me pose a question:
Would it be fair for God to impose (1) set of laws on one child, and a different set of laws on another child and BOTH children receive the SAME reward?

Would it be fair to tell one child they cannot do something, and if they obeyed, and DID NOT they will be rewarded, while the other child is able TO DO that which his brother CANNOT but he still receives the same reward as his brother that could not?

Would YOU want to be judged by a judge like that? Abrahame asked that same question of the ONLY who would judge:

Gen.18
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Is God a respecter of persons?

Acts 10
[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

If you believe God is fair and not a respecter of persons, how can He say to the Jews keep my laws and if you do not you will be punished, but to the Gentiles, you do not have to keep my laws, as a matter of fact, I will still reward you even if you do not keep my laws. I will give the Gentiles the SAME reward as the Jews, but you Gentiles are free from the law!

Is that a righteous judge?

Let's take a look at what GOD the righteous judge will be looking at on JUDGEMENT DAY:

Rev.20
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

When the books were open was it the FAITH one had that they were judged by?

When the books were open was it the BELIEF one ahd that they were judged by?

Now this is the last book of the bible. The judge that will judge the WHOLE world is looking at one thing only; WORKS!

Now let's look at the LAST CHAPTER IN THE LAST BOOK of the bible:

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You may want to make sure you know the 'WORKS' you will be judged by and the 'COMMANDMENTS' you need to keep.

You may also want to check to make sure you know WHO the JUDGE will be! Here's a hint: It's not PAUL!