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The word "until"

Discussion in 'Mariology & Hagiography' started by shinbits, Nov 7, 2009.

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  1. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    "Joseph did not know his wife until Mary gave birth"

    Supporters of ever-virginity use these points:


    1) "In the same way parents say 'behave until I get back' doesn't mean they want their kids to start misbehaving when they return, 'until Mary gave birth' doesn't mean they had sex after Christ was born".

    There's a BIG difference here.

    Parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.

    The other example used, is:

    2) "Jesus said 'I will be with you until the end of the age'. That doesn't mean that he'll stop being with us when that end comes."

    Again: according to the Bible, those who obey him, are to always expect to be with Christ, forever.

    Mary was never expected to be a virgin, always and forever. Therefore, the word "until" in that passage has a logical limitation for Joseph and Mary not having sex with each other.

    So using these arguments as counter-points for "until Mary gave birth" is incorrect.


    Peace.
     
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  2. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Secondly, it's obvious Mary had sex:

    I don't think there's any way to argue with this.

    Peace.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  3. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    I don't think it's obvious she did. I think people want to read into certain Bible verses to confirm their natural 21st century mindset of how sex is. There's nothing in the Bible that says she had sexual relations with Joseph, who was 3 times her age. Good grief.
     
  4. catzrfluffy

    catzrfluffy i come bearing .gifs

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    'Brothers' in the culture at the time was used for people in one's extended family.

    Jesus was the heir to the throne of David through both His mother's and father's family lines, because Mary was the only child of Heli, when she married Joseph, her husband inherited the rights, being the male. Because Jesus wasn't the physical Son of Joseph, if He had had any brothers, the rights would have gone to them, so He can't have had any brothers by blood.

    "In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
    Who can speak of his descendants?
    For his life was taken from the earth.”" (Acts 8:33)

    "By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    And who can speak of his descendants?" (Isaiah 53:8)

    "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”" (Luke 1:32-33)

    When He died, wouldn't the rights have immediately gone to the next brother, how could He reign for ever and ever, if that was so?
     
  5. catzrfluffy

    catzrfluffy i come bearing .gifs

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    Geneva Study Bible

    And knew her not {l} till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (l) The word till, in the Hebrew language, gives us to understand that a thing will not come to pass in time to come: as Michal had no children till her death day, 2Sa 6:23. And in the last chapter of this evangelist: Behold, I am with you till the end of the world.
     
  6. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Let's flip it around. Do u realize there's nothing in the Bible that says she didn't have sex? Not even an implication of such. And seeing how there's no reason why Mary wouldn't have sex, the chances are much more in favor that she did sleep with Joseph, seeing that this is what married couples do.

    However, there's evidence that she DID have sex, such as in the repeated statements that Jesus had brothers, and even sisters. In short, there's reason to believe Mary had sex, but no reason to believe she didn't.
     
  7. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Because by law, Jesus was the firstborn son of Joseph, which is why everyone regarded Jesus as Joseph's son:

    "Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son?"
     
  8. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Read the first post. This was covered.

    Death is EXPECTED to preclude having kids. No one in their right mind would think anyone would have kids after death. Likewise, the Bible says we are to EXPECT being with Christ forever. So again, no reasonable person would take "until" to have a time limit in that case.

    HOWEVER,

    Mary was NOT "expected" to remain a virgin. So it's only reasonable that "until" meant that she she obstained from sex only up to when Jesus was born.

    Peace.
     
  9. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
     
  10. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    The examples cover the grammatical use of the word "until". The word does not logically demand a reversal of condition or action. A grammar text might be consulted on the matter if you disagree.
     
  11. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    The example covers the use of the term "ews" "until". Is there Biblical evidence that Mary in particular had children other than Christ ?
     
  12. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    But there are situations in where it logically does. Hence, the first post.
     
  13. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    The use of "until" logically does not demand a reversal of condition. A reversal in this case has been inferred, but is not Biblically supported.
     
  14. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Mark 6:3:

    "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"

    Note how they start naming Jesus' immediate family, starting with the father and mother, then go on to mention the rest of the immediate family, using "brother" and "sister", not "cousins" or "aunts".

    I expect the next thing you'll say is that the Jews used "brother and sister" to mean just any family members of the respective genders. But note how the Bible distinctly refers to Elizabeth as Mary's cousin, never calling her Mary's sister. In fact, there's no evidence that the Bible ever interchanges "cousin" or any familial term with "brother".

    It's logical to believe Mary had sex and bore Jesus siblings. However, there's no logical reason to believe she didn't.

    Peace.
     
  15. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    I already told you: the word itself doesn't demand a "reversal of condition", but there are situations where a reversal of condition is the only logical option. For example:

    "I did not take my medication until I got a glass of water." Would you take this to mean that I never took my meds? No, of course not. Reason dictates that a reversal of "not taking meds" is the only option.

    Again, there are situations where "until" does indeed reverse a condition. Hence, the first post.
     
  16. polishbeast

    polishbeast Servant of Jesus

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    Now when Abram heard that his brother [Lot} was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. Genesis 14:14

    Lot here is referred to as brother yet we know is Abraham's nephew.
     
  17. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    Adelphos/adelphi are both references to a patriarchal origin (the word pater also means origin, cause, etc.).

    The various meanings of adelphos, whether bilogical, spiritual, metaphorical, refer to relationship through a/the "father".

    For example, when used of countrymen -- the fatherland is the "father" (metaphoric).
    When used of a tribal relation -- then the tribes origin is the founder father (as in the various Jewish tribes).
    When used of household relation -- the head of household (whether uncle, etc.) is the origin.


    When used of broader relationships (biological), again there is a common father. Siblings share an immediate father (by birth or adoption). Cousins share a common grandfather, etc.

    Of spiritual origin -- here the common father should be clear.


    Can the common grandfather/male origin of Elizabeth and Mary be Biblically demonstrated ?


    As for anepsios, in this case (iirc) the person is related by the mother. Further, given the metaphoric and spiritual use of the term adelphos, it is not unlikely the term anepsios was deliberately chosen instead of adelphos because of the disagreement.

    The use of the term "adelphos" in theses passages provides no evidence of for common mother.
     
  18. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

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    Although the parallel of this example is not apparent, a reversal of condition is not the only logical option.

    Perhaps the person was quite thirsty, and was being petulant about applying a topical lotion until his thirst was slaked. In this case, the medication would not be the emphasis of the statement.
     
  19. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't read the King James, so I haven't seen that. I did a check on different translations, and many of them make a clear distinction between brother and just any relation:


    New International Version (©1984)
    When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he led out his trained men, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.


    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    When Abram heard that his nephew had been captured, he armed his 318 trained men, born in his own household, and pursued the four kings all the way to Dan.


    Bible in Basic English
    And Abram, hearing that his brother's son had been made a prisoner, took a band of his trained men, three hundred and eighteen of them, sons of his house, and went after them as far as Dan.

    World English Bible
    When Abram heard that his relative was taken captive, he led forth his trained men, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued as far as Dan.

    But now that I know some translate it as "brother", I take my statement back. Still doesn't change that there's NO reason to believe in ever-virginity, while there's reason to believe Mary had sex.
     
  20. shinbits

    shinbits Well-Known Member

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    But since there's NO reason to ASSUME that, any other option such as yours, has no logical basis.

    In like manner, there's no logical basis for ASSUMING Mary remained a virgin. However, there is a logical basis for concluding that Mary had sex.
     
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