The woeful state of worship music

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am interested in hearing thoughts on this article: Popular Charismatic Worship Artist, Kari Jobe, Teaching Dangerous Theology. My sister just went to a Kari Jobe concert and was disconcerted by the amount of repetition and how loud it was. She felt something was amiss. Not much talk of Jesus just the Holy Spirit. Very experiential oriented.

Personally I dislike worship songs that go overboard on the repetition. Some is fine but other songs are little more than a few phrases repeated over and over again. Then there is the lack of sound theology in some of these songs...

I am not trying to throw out the baby with the bath water. I like contemporary worship. I just want more discernment.

Thoughts?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,988
2,479
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟555,321.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Kindly said as a suggestion, perhaps you might consider stepping out of the comfort zone you are in (we all have them, this is not an attack) and attend a service at an Orthodox parish if there is one near you. Or you could find a Byzantine Catholic or Anglican Ordinariate parish if no Orthodox is near you.

The reason I suggest this is that the music in them has not changed with the times. It is not there to entertain the masses, to get the foot tapping, or make people feel good. Much of the Orthodox liturgical hymnody comes directly from the Psalms, especially during a Pre-sanctified Liturgy on Wednesday or Friday.

You might find the music uplifting, you might not, but you would have an interesting experience to meditate upon.
 
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Kindly said as a suggestion, perhaps you might consider stepping out of the comfort zone you are in (we all have them, this is not an attack) and attend a service at an Orthodox parish if there is one near you. Or you could find a Byzantine Catholic or Anglican Ordinariate parish if no Orthodox is near you.

The reason I suggest this is that the music in them has not changed with the times. It is not there to entertain the masses, to get the foot tapping, or make people feel good. Much of the Orthodox liturgical hymnody comes directly from the Psalms, especially during a Pre-sanctified Liturgy on Wednesday or Friday.

You might find the music uplifting, you might not, but you would have an interesting experience to meditate upon.

I know of what you speak. Unfortunately I have doctrinal issues with those churches...
 
Upvote 0

grasping the after wind

That's grasping after the wind
Jan 18, 2010
19,458
6,354
Clarence Center NY USA
✟237,637.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am interested in hearing thoughts on this article: Popular Charismatic Worship Artist, Kari Jobe, Teaching Dangerous Theology. My sister just went to a Kari Jobe concert and was disconcerted by the amount of repetition and how loud it was. She felt something was amiss. Not much talk of Jesus just the Holy Spirit. Very experiential oriented.

Personally I dislike worship songs that go overboard on the repetition. Some is fine but other songs are little more than a few phrases repeated over and over again. Then there is the lack of sound theology in some of these songs...

I am not trying to throw out the baby with the bath water. I like contemporary worship. I just want more discernment.

Thoughts?

Repetition also annoys me. Holy, holy, holy for instance. One holy would have sufficed. At our church we are reciting the Lord's Prayer and the Apostle's Creed at every service . How many people even pay attention to what they are saying?
Worship music is not the problem you are addressing . Worship lyrics are.
 
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Repetition also annoys me. Holy, holy, holy for instance. One holy would have sufficed. At our church we are reciting the Lord's Prayer and the Apostle's Creed at every service . How many people even pay attention to what they are saying?
Worship music is not the problem you are addressing . Worship lyrics are.

I agree. Not the music but the lyrics.
 
Upvote 0

Big Drew

Believer
Supporter
Nov 10, 2009
1,883
541
Alabama
✟74,961.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Repetition is annoying...

I have a problem with prayer, and I've noticed it lately...that when I go to pray I end up saying the same thing each time. "God forgive me, look over my family, etc..." Looking at this as a parent, how annoyed do I get when one of my daughters asks me the same question 20 times?

It's the same thing with worship music, "Open the eyes of my heart, Lord x 10," "Holy, you are holy, king of kings, Lord of lords you are holy, x 10" These that I mention aren't bad ways to praise God...they're beautiful songs with a good message...but the need to repeat is a bit much...I don't know why this has become such a thing in modern worship...but I imagine it starts with how we pray.
 
Upvote 0

grasping the after wind

That's grasping after the wind
Jan 18, 2010
19,458
6,354
Clarence Center NY USA
✟237,637.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Repetition is annoying...

I have a problem with prayer, and I've noticed it lately...that when I go to pray I end up saying the same thing each time. "God forgive me, look over my family, etc..." Looking at this as a parent, how annoyed do I get when one of my daughters asks me the same question 20 times?

It's the same thing with worship music, "Open the eyes of my heart, Lord x 10," "Holy, you are holy, king of kings, Lord of lords you are holy, x 10" These that I mention aren't bad ways to praise God...they're beautiful songs with a good message...but the need to repeat is a bit much...I don't know why this has become such a thing in modern worship...but I imagine it starts with how we pray.

When things are repeated mindlessly it is no longer worship it is "vain repetition". It is meaningless drivel. It is no more useful as
Christian worship than a Hindu mantra would be.
 
Upvote 0

Big Drew

Believer
Supporter
Nov 10, 2009
1,883
541
Alabama
✟74,961.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
When things are repeated mindlessly it is no longer worship it is "vain repetition". It is meaningless drivel. It is no more useful as
Christian worship than a Hindu mantra would be.
Not gonna disagree with that. How do we pray without being repetitive? Hmm...that's kinda off topic, maybe I'll start a thread...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

grasping the after wind

That's grasping after the wind
Jan 18, 2010
19,458
6,354
Clarence Center NY USA
✟237,637.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not gonna disagree with that. How do we pray without being repetitive? Hmm...that's kinda off topic, maybe I'll start a thread...

Only slightly tangential to the topic. You may well repeat things you have prayed in the past without being repetitive. Reciting the same thing over and over is different than asking God for the same things or saying the same things to Him you may have said in the past. In one instance you are just insincerely mouthing words in the other you are being sincere but persistent. God has invited us to be persistent. There are only so many ways to express an idea so reusing phrases or words from past conversations is fine. Prayer is a conversation with God. Just reciting something again and again is not a conversation at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Drew
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I've heard the argument that having simple lyrics and repetition aid in worship as you don't need to focus on remembering the lyrics or reading them and can focus on the meaning of the words and worshiping God through them. It's almost like we have to "get past the words" into true worship. It almost seems to distinguish between the singing of the words and worship through the words (my terms). Of course anyone can mindlessly sing or pray without giving any thought to their words. That is not true prayer or worship. However the words matter.

I grew up Catholic and learned to pray the Rosary. The ideas was for each set of 10 beads you prayed 10 Hail Mary's while meditating on one of the stations of the cross. I always felt that in order to meditate on something like that you couldn't possibly be thinking about the words you were praying. They became background noise if you were truly meditating on a station of the cross. To me that was not prayer. I was not praying to God. I was meditating. Why bother praying in that case? Just meditate. Likewise if the words to a song become background noise to our thoughts then why sing? Why not just have a theme and play wordless music? Repetition leads to mindlessness. The only worship songs we have recorded from us in the Bible are in the Psalms. You won't find repetition in them. David wrote some long, intricate Psalms he sang.

I think we are trying to almost force a worship experience through the lyrics that is very experiential.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,988
2,479
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟555,321.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I know of what you speak. Unfortunately I have doctrinal issues with those churches...

Stop and realize that what they teach is the same thing you will find in the writings and sermons of the very first Christians. I used to have doctrinal issues with them also, but after being challenged by some very good online Catholic apologists, after 2 years of fairly deep and intense study, I came to realize that if I wanted to worship as the Apostles and Early Church did, I had to convert.

The Bible can be interpreted in thousands of ways. The preponderance of assemblies and the multitude of doctrines in the world should prove this easily. So the question is then: who is right? And for me, the answer is that Church which most closely follows what the earliest Christians taught and died for.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,988
2,479
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟555,321.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Repetition also annoys me. Holy, holy, holy for instance. One holy would have sufficed. At our church we are reciting the Lord's Prayer and the Apostle's Creed at every service . How many people even pay attention to what they are saying?
Worship music is not the problem you are addressing . Worship lyrics are.

Really? Seems that God didn't exactly feel that way now:

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Repetition also annoys me. Holy, holy, holy for instance.
Except that is from the biblical account of Heavenly worship:

Isaiah 6:3 And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”

Revelation 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.”

It is a linguistic tool used to denote strength. To double a word; ("Truly Truly I say to you ...") denotes extreme strength. But to triple it; "Holy Holy Holy," is to make it infinitely strong.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Stop and realize that what they teach is the same thing you will find in the writings and sermons of the very first Christians. I used to have doctrinal issues with them also, but after being challenged by some very good online Catholic apologists, after 2 years of fairly deep and intense study, I came to realize that if I wanted to worship as the Apostles and Early Church did, I had to convert.

The Bible can be interpreted in thousands of ways. The preponderance of assemblies and the multitude of doctrines in the world should prove this easily. So the question is then: who is right? And for me, the answer is that Church which most closely follows what the earliest Christians taught and died for.

Correct me if I am wrong but the only description I found in the Bible as to how the early church worshiped is in Acts and some hints from the NT epistles. The focus seemed to be on the Apostles teaching, prayer, singing, and communion. We are not told details about the style of these meetings other than many of the early churches met in people's homes or Synagogues. We cannot tell how formal or informal they were, how people dressed, what they sung, etc. Personally I believe there is room for different styles of worship so long as we worship "in spirit and in truth."

Early worship may have been influenced by Jewish worship (in some locations) or in ways influenced by the music and culture of the day. I don't live in first century Palestine so their style of worship would not be my favorite. I grew up Roman Catholic and hated all the repetition in the mass, the reading of prayers, the lack of Bible teaching, wearing robes, etc. Not saying those things are wrong but I did not like them. I care more though for the substance of the worship than the form of it.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Correct me if I am wrong but the only description I found in the Bible as to how the early church worshiped is in Acts and some hints from the NT epistles.
That is correct as far as biblical sources is concerned. There are many non-biblical texts that describe early church worship as well.
The focus seemed to be on the Apostles teaching, prayer, singing, and communion. We are not told details about the style of these meetings other than many of the early churches met in people's homes or Synagogues.
true. There was also the Temple in Jerusalem.
Early worship may have been influenced by Jewish worship (in some locations) or in ways influenced by the music and culture of the day.
Actually for the first several years it was ENTIRELY Jewish. The congregation in Jerusalem patterned their service after the Temple service (and often held their meetings in Solomon's Colonnade) while the predominantly gentile congregations Paul started patterned their service after the Synagogue services.
I don't live in first century Palestine
Actually that did not exist. There was no place called "Palestine" until the mid 2nd century. It was called "Judea." The Romans re-named it following the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad.
 
Upvote 0

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I found this article of interest.

My point is that I don't believe the form of our worship is nearly as important as the substance of it. Paul wrote of becoming "all things to all men...to the Jew a Jew...to the Greek a Greek...so as to win some to Christ." From my own reading the early church met in many different types of places. Basically wherever they could and often in private residences. I don't think their meetings followed Jewish worship that closely. Not doubt it differed in Gentile lands. So I disagree it was entirely Jewish but even if it was that does not mean our worship today must be Jewish-like. The NT does not prescribe precise rules for worship other than it be "in spirit and in truth." Clearly it is to contain the preaching of the Scriptures, prayer, singing, and communion. How those things are put together, the type of music, how formal/informal, etc, are left to us. As long as our worship contains those elements the rest is optional and choices we make.

Sorry for using the word Palestine. I was lazy there.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,988
2,479
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟555,321.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Correct me if I am wrong but the only description I found in the Bible as to how the early church worshiped is in Acts and some hints from the NT epistles. The focus seemed to be on the Apostles teaching, prayer, singing, and communion. We are not told details about the style of these meetings other than many of the early churches met in people's homes or Synagogues. We cannot tell how formal or informal they were, how people dressed, what they sung, etc. Personally I believe there is room for different styles of worship so long as we worship "in spirit and in truth."

Early worship may have been influenced by Jewish worship (in some locations) or in ways influenced by the music and culture of the day. I don't live in first century Palestine so their style of worship would not be my favorite. I grew up Roman Catholic and hated all the repetition in the mass, the reading of prayers, the lack of Bible teaching, wearing robes, etc. Not saying those things are wrong but I did not like them. I care more though for the substance of the worship than the form of it.

The Bible says that the Church was planted as a seed. Acts is hardly the place to go to see the finished tree, is it? Anyone who wishes to base his worship on Acts alone is re-creating the Church in its infant stage. There was need for growth and fullness, which would come over the centuries.

You care more for substance? Good grief, how much more substance can you get than the Sacraments where Christ has promised to be truly present? How much more substance would you like than His very Body and Blood to enter into you, join with you, and fill you with Himself. What developed over the centuries is the Church in full bloom, no longer a seedling.

Noting that you appear to be fairly young, perhaps you are a victim of the Vaticanization of Vatican II on the Liturgy. Good exegesis and good praxis went pretty much how the window and were replaced by holding hands and singing "Kumbya, Lord." (Well, that is a bit of hyperbole, but you get my drift.)

This is what I really like about Eastern worship. We participate in the prayers, the singing of the Psalms, and the reading of the Epistle and Gospel. There is lots to do, which fulfills the description of "litourgia" (Greek) which means "work of the people."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NotUrAvgGuy

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
899
392
Boise, Idaho
Visit site
✟65,509.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The Bible says that the Church was planted as a seed. Acts is hardly the place to go to see the finished tree, is it? Anyone who wishes to base his worship on Acts alone is re-creating the Church in its infant stage. There was need for growth and fullness, which would come over the centuries.

You care more for substance? Good grief, how much more substance can you get than the Sacraments where Christ has promised to be truly present? How much more substance would you like than His very Body and Blood to enter into you, join with you, and fill you with Himself. What developed over the centuries is the Church in full bloom, no longer a seedling.

Noting that you appear to be fairly young, perhaps you are a victim of the Vaticanization of Vatican II on the Liturgy. Good exegesis and good praxis went pretty much how the window and were replaced by holding hands and singing "Kumbya, Lord." (Well, that is a bit of hyperbole, but you get my drift.)

This is what I really like about Eastern worship. We participate in the prayers, the singing of the Psalms, and the reading of the Epistle and Gospel. There is lots to do, which fulfills the description of "litourgia" (Greek) which means "work of the people."

Actually I am 57 so not that young (darn!). I grew up Roman Catholic although I have not been since college and now attend a non-denominational church. I do recall the period after Vatican II. I still have faint memories of hearing a mass said in Latin.

My church service is obviously a bit difference. We don't have readings but we do study the Bible, verse-by-verse, book-by-book working through whole books of the Bible sometimes spending 9-18 months studying a single book. We don't sing the Psalms although I once attended a non-denominational church that did. I enjoyed singing them.

My own belief is that the essentials of Christian worship are found in the Book of Acts. I don't believe their worship needed further growth or fullness. It had the essentials and people were being blessed and the church was growing. While different traditions since have arisen and worship styles matured I don't believe there is one right way to worship. Your church is very liturgical in its worship whereas mine is not. Personally I prefer a non-liturgical service but I am not saying that is better just different. I don't like repetition, recited prayers, robes, fancy church buildings, etc. That's me. I don't put that on anyone else.

Since you are Catholic though we do have some differences. I don't believe communion gives us the body and blood of Christ. I believe it is symbolic. Like I said I left the Catholic church. I did not believe it preached the Gospel. It preached a works-salvation. Not tying to start a debate on that though! My only point here is that I believe as long as the essential elements of worship are present the rest is preference so long as nothing sinful is included.
 
Upvote 0