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Robert Pate
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All men are sinners, Romans 3:23.
"There is none righteous, no, not one," Romans 3:10
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All men are sinners, Romans 3:23.
"There is none righteous, no, not one," Romans 3:10
Rob. I suppose you think there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels because another autonomous sinner who is truly God since he is the one who has the ultimate control in the matter of salvation [God is whoever is in control by the way. If God isn't the supreme controller of the universe, then he isn't God] has made his almighty decision and provided God with another victory. I bet "poor god" was wringing his hands just hoping another sinner would help him put more points on the scoreboard. After all, to quote you, "Jesus has done all he can do for the salvation of mankind. . . ." What a pitiful savior!
If you are right, sinners don't need to worry anyway. A God who doesn't have enough control to save them, doesn't have enough control to damn them either.
If you are right, sinners don't need to worry anyway. A God who doesn't have enough control to save them, doesn't have enough control to damn them either.
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Robert Pate
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There is "Free Will" in heaven.
What do you think that God wants a bunch of mindless programmed robots?
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"Even though salvation has been provided for them, they have not accepted it." This is called "begging the question." You have stated as your conclusion what you are trying to prove. You first have to prove salvation has been "provided for them." Salvation is never spoken of as a mere provision. You have to read that into the Scriptures to get your "theology" to work for you. Faith doesn't make God's plan work. Faith merely receives the accomplished work of Christ. The Bible says, "He [Jesus] IS the propitiation for our sins. . . ." It doesn't say he is "potentially" the propitiation" These matters don't become reality because I believe them. I believe them because they are a reality. If God had satisfied his wrath for them in the sacrifice of his Son, that wrath could not come on them.
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"All men are sinners, Romans 3:23.
"There is none righteous, no, not one," Romans 3:10"
Your point?
"There is none righteous, no, not one," Romans 3:10"
Your point?
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Well, as much fun as this is proving to be, regrettably, I must leave for a while. Rob. I strongly suggest you go learn what Calvinism is about before you level any more accusations against us. Straw man arguments do nothing to aid understanding.
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Robert Pate
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It is painful.
If you go off into eternity without God's great free gift of salvation it will be painful.
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nobdysfool
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How do you know? Have you been there? Truth is, you don't know that for sure. Show us the Scripture that proves it.
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nobdysfool
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If it were, there would be a lot less of it. As it is, we have seen a shockingly large display of it this last 2 weeks....
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JackSparrow
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How would there be a lot less of it if this is what God has predestined ?
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Robert Pate
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Free will glorifies God and his Son Jesus Christ. God seeks men that will worship him because they want to, not because they have been programmed to.
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Originally Posted by nobdysfool
How do you know? Have you been there? Truth is, you don't know that for sure. Show us the Scripture that proves it.
"Free will glorifies God and his Son Jesus Christ. God seeks men that will worship him because they want to, not because they have been programmed to." Rob Pâté
First you need to define "free will". You seem a bit fuzzy on that concept. Then, you need to show that sinners in a state of nature have it. Then you should try to find a quotation from a Calvinist that states he believes there are people who worship God who don't really want to. Then, If you would be so kind as to explain how sinners who are conceived in sin are totally averse to the things of God and hostile toward God himself come to the point that they worship him freely and willingly. It can't be the conviction of the Spirit since people ALWAYS resist the Spirit. Besides that, if he convicts all alike, that wouldn't explain why some believe and some don't. Perhaps some are less sinners than others and deserve God's blessings more.
How do you know? Have you been there? Truth is, you don't know that for sure. Show us the Scripture that proves it.
"Free will glorifies God and his Son Jesus Christ. God seeks men that will worship him because they want to, not because they have been programmed to." Rob Pâté
First you need to define "free will". You seem a bit fuzzy on that concept. Then, you need to show that sinners in a state of nature have it. Then you should try to find a quotation from a Calvinist that states he believes there are people who worship God who don't really want to. Then, If you would be so kind as to explain how sinners who are conceived in sin are totally averse to the things of God and hostile toward God himself come to the point that they worship him freely and willingly. It can't be the conviction of the Spirit since people ALWAYS resist the Spirit. Besides that, if he convicts all alike, that wouldn't explain why some believe and some don't. Perhaps some are less sinners than others and deserve God's blessings more.
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Calvinism says that everyone rejects the gospel prior to the "will nilly" regeneration of the Spirit. So, evangelism (the Word) is not the tool that is used to bring life (regeneration) in Christ, regeneration by the Spirit is.
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nobdysfool
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What "willy nilly" regeneration of the Spirit? Where do you get that? Skala is correct, God uses means to accomplish His Will. He has graciously allowed us Christians to be a part of the realization of His Plan for man. He uses Christians to preach the Gospel, as the conduit through which the elect are brought to Him.
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Hey nbdysfool,
Happy New Year!
Within the Calvinistic construct, how does God use the Word as the means to bring about regeneration, if unregenerate man can do nothing but reject the Word? It seems He would have to, through no other means, regenerate the person by the Spirit, thereby, and only thereby making the Word have any effect upon the person? If I'm wrong, could you please explain how and to what extent the Word can work on a person before regeneration?
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Arcoe,
One thing I noticed that was conspicuously absent from your diatribe was any reference to the Word of God. You will always arrive at faulty conclusions as long as you depend on your marred human wisdom to form your conclusions.
In defining "free will" as you did, you revealed your abject ignorance of the issues in the theological discussion in which we are engaged here. I don't think anyone here would deny that human beings, in every decision we make, choose what we will, what we think, what we delight in and how we will act. Short of calling you an imbecile, I am not sure how to describe one who would enter into a discussion like this without even some vague concept of the real issues.
I am trying to get some fix on your theological orientation. It appears to me you are basically Pelagian in your views. You seem to believe everyone is born innocent just as Adam was created in God's image. But, it also seems you believe some are in some way better than others since not all do not resist the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you could share with me what makes some better than others. Stephen preached that not only did those whom he addressed ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit, but their fathers had acted in exactly the same way. Acts 7:51
What I am having difficulty with is why a "supposed" believer thinks everyone can understand what is clearly written in the Bible when the Apostle Paul states "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither CAN he know them because they are discerned by means of the Spirit. "1 Cor. 2:14.
A am also guessing you think King David was describing himself as an exception to the rest of the human race when he wrote that he was brought forth in iniquity and conceived in sin (Psa. 51:5.
If I believed I were less a sinner than the rest of the race, I wouldn't need the grace of God would I. Unlike you, I believe what Paul wrote in Eph 2, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Since you believe some sinners are able and willing to turn to God on their own, you must believe there is some aspect of their being that is better than the rest and less in need of God's grace. Paul's statement in Eph 2 seems to indicate that all sinners are alike "were by nature children of wrath, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND."
Hope you have a lovely day.
One thing I noticed that was conspicuously absent from your diatribe was any reference to the Word of God. You will always arrive at faulty conclusions as long as you depend on your marred human wisdom to form your conclusions.
In defining "free will" as you did, you revealed your abject ignorance of the issues in the theological discussion in which we are engaged here. I don't think anyone here would deny that human beings, in every decision we make, choose what we will, what we think, what we delight in and how we will act. Short of calling you an imbecile, I am not sure how to describe one who would enter into a discussion like this without even some vague concept of the real issues.
I am trying to get some fix on your theological orientation. It appears to me you are basically Pelagian in your views. You seem to believe everyone is born innocent just as Adam was created in God's image. But, it also seems you believe some are in some way better than others since not all do not resist the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you could share with me what makes some better than others. Stephen preached that not only did those whom he addressed ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit, but their fathers had acted in exactly the same way. Acts 7:51
What I am having difficulty with is why a "supposed" believer thinks everyone can understand what is clearly written in the Bible when the Apostle Paul states "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither CAN he know them because they are discerned by means of the Spirit. "1 Cor. 2:14.
A am also guessing you think King David was describing himself as an exception to the rest of the human race when he wrote that he was brought forth in iniquity and conceived in sin (Psa. 51:5.
If I believed I were less a sinner than the rest of the race, I wouldn't need the grace of God would I. Unlike you, I believe what Paul wrote in Eph 2, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Since you believe some sinners are able and willing to turn to God on their own, you must believe there is some aspect of their being that is better than the rest and less in need of God's grace. Paul's statement in Eph 2 seems to indicate that all sinners are alike "were by nature children of wrath, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND."
Hope you have a lovely day.
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nobdysfool
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Regeneration is by the Spirit of God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. Two different things.
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