The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

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Ohorseman

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Pain in egalitarianism? I think you mean pain in patriarchy. You mentioned awhile back that I made patriarchy sound like oppression, and of course I did, because that's what it is. And oppression does cause pain.

Yes, brother. Pain. Pain is everywhere. Oppression is everywhere. It just shows itself in different ways. Here, here.

I'm a man. I have no need for egalitarianism. It doesn't benefit me in the least. I had no interest in looking into it because that was a "women's issue."

I became an Egalitarian because the Scriptures led me there. It's the truth. I had no choice. It's the only logical way I can see to reconcile what the scriptures plainly say.
I do not know you. But you shared your pain. And I know this. If my father wanted to discard me, it would shape me forever. Forgiveness. If I were able to do that, well that in and of itself would be the accomplishment of a lifetime. A crown. Certainly you doing that pleases the Lord. And, if that happened to me, certainly it would affect how I read the scriptures, maybe in ways that I would even be unaware of. I would have had an issue with my father, with authority, with hierarchy. I would find it objectionable that my father's word carried more emphasis than my mother. Indeed, you are a man. And I am impressed by you. Not by your theology. By you. That is why I say, well done brother! And that is all I have to say about that. I feel that I might be going somewhere sacred and maybe I am not holy enough to touch it.
Godly women with PhDs in theology can't teach Sunday school to teenage boys, but Roscoe the taxi driver who gets his theology from highly suspect places is perfectly qualified. The body of Christ is harmed because of these limitations they put on women. Not on men. Only women. And it's wrong and it's sinful. That's why I do this.
PhDs are nice but they don't mean as much as one might think. Part of my job is to oversee sex offenders. I have an 88 year old man with a PhD that sexually molested his granddaughters. He was a Methodist minister. Church did not save him. A PhD did not save him. He found salvation literally in a prison cell. I do not worry that he will re-offend. He can barely walk now and is impotent. He is made in the image of God, just like me. I love him. He is my friend. My brother. Actually, I treat him more like he is my grandpa. My job aside, me and the old man are not equals because he is my elder, I respect him due to his age. It is patriarchal thing and you may not understand.

And gay pride has their educated people with PhDs as well, playing the same word games and text twisting that ya'll do. What's next, inappropriate behavior with animals. It's in the OT too you know. God had to say that because people were doing that. I hope not. I hope you and I are not arguing with people at CF about that years from now. Well, at least you probably would stop with the GEN 3:16.... ha, ha, but maybe not. If that happens, lets make a deal to team up, LOL.

I like the Roscoe guys. But I don't like women alone teaching boys. They need a man or they will turn out sissies. It works best when we fulfill our roles and not make church a political enterprise that copies worldly systems, instead following the Bible.

Sounds nice. But patriarchists very often let the wife have her way when it suits them. Throw them a bone, or throw them 9 bones out of 10 over things that don't matter to the man. But that 1 thing out of 10 that really matters, there's always the man-card to play. Sounds nice. Looks good on paper. But it's rotten at its core.

Ha, ha. True, true. The wife plays the same game with the submission side. I know my wife does. That mutual submission thing is a hard thing. In the flesh it is darn near impossible. Only walking in the spirit does it work.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Genesis 4:4
Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, ‘I have produced a man with the help of the Lord.’

Genesis 4:2
Next she bore his brother Abel.​

Genesis 4:25
Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, for she said, ‘God has appointed for me another child instead of Abel, because Cain killed him.’​



I am sorry @Eloy Craft I think you are over-reading the text. Your appeal to 'mythic language' sounds a little too gnostic for me. I am happy to accept the story as myth, and I affirm that myth can be a vehicle of truth, and sometimes more reliably than history, however when we over-read the text and see meaning beyond the words, we need to be very very carful that we do not lapse into eisegesis.
What part is beyond the text?
 
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Philip_B

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What part is beyond the text?
The part were you seem to be making something of the text other than the entirely reasonable human understanding that she has acknowledged God in giving thanks for the birth of both of the Cain and Seth.
 
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Gregorikos

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Ohorseman: You have made many outrageous posts in this 30 page thread, but this one outdoes them all.

Yes, brother. Pain. Pain is everywhere. Oppression is everywhere. It just shows itself in different ways. Here, here.

Only sadists or masochists enjoy pain. It's shocking that you would defend it, rather than try to alleviate it. I pointed out that patriarchy is oppression, and your response is, "oppression is everywhere," as if it should be accepted. That's quite easy to say when you are on the side of the oppressor, as in this case.

I do not know you. But you shared your pain. And I know this. If my father wanted to discard me, it would shape me forever. Forgiveness. If I were able to do that, well that in and of itself would be the accomplishment of a lifetime. A crown. Certainly you doing that pleases the Lord.

Your amateur psychoanalysis of my mental state is not appreciated in the least. You are wrong about everything. Please stop.

And, if that happened to me, certainly it would affect how I read the scriptures, maybe in ways that I would even be unaware of. I would have had an issue with my father, with authority, with hierarchy. I would find it objectionable that my father's word carried more emphasis than my mother.

You are implying that the reason I see Genesis 1-3 differently than you do is that something is wrong with me mentally and/or emotionally due to childhood trauma. This is an outrageous tactic.

And let me correct your errant assumptions: I have no issue with authority or hierarchy whatsoever. I can and do submit to people of either gender who are in authority over me. Apparently that's a statement you can't make.

Indeed, you are a man. And I am impressed by you. Not by your theology. By you. That is why I say, well done brother! And that is all I have to say about that. I feel that I might be going somewhere sacred and maybe I am not holy enough to touch it.

Stop patronizing me.

PhDs are nice but they don't mean as much as one might think. Part of my job is to oversee sex offenders. I have an 88 year old man with a PhD that sexually molested his granddaughters. He was a Methodist minister. Church did not save him. A PhD did not save him. He found salvation literally in a prison cell. I do not worry that he will re-offend. He can barely walk now and is impotent. He is made in the image of God, just like me. I love him. He is my friend. My brother. Actually, I treat him more like he is my grandpa. My job aside, me and the old man are not equals because he is my elder, I respect him due to his age.

It's stunning that you can treat a sex offender as a grandpa, an elder; but you can't even speak to Paidiske because she's a woman in just slightly the wrong shade of Anglicanism.

And your heartwarming story of your love for a pedophile bypassed my point- that patriarchal people like you overlook the most eminently qualified women for positions of leadership and authority in favor of individuals who have no qualifications at all other than being male. This is an abuse of your leadership, and a stifling of women's gifts, and the Lord will hold you accountable.

It is patriarchal thing and you may not understand.

That's insulting. Stop taking digs at me. You are implying I'm not a man who grew up in a man's world and have no understanding of it. This is nothing but a subtle ad hominem attack.

And gay pride has their educated people with PhDs as well,

You already know we're on the same side of the gay issue, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up in this thread. You seem obsessed with it, or you are trying to denigrate me with it. Gay pride people with PhDs are disqualified because of their beliefs and practices, not their gender.

What's next, inappropriate behavior with animals. It's in the OT too you know. God had to say that because people were doing that. I hope not. I hope you and I are not arguing with people at CF about that years from now.

This is further evidence that you were trying to paint me with the gay pride issue. You bring it up, as if it is relevant, and now you take it a step further, implying my "next" step will be to embrace inappropriate behavior with animals and attempt to defend it on CF. This is another subtle ad hominem attack.

But I don't like women alone teaching boys. They need a man or they will turn out sissies.

Do you have even one scintilla of evidence supporting this claim? Is the reverse true? Does men teaching girls turn them butch? Why or why not?

It works best when we fulfill our roles and not make church a political enterprise that copies worldly systems, instead following the Bible.

The "roles" you are advocating are merely copies of the worldly systems of 1st century Greco-Roman culture. That isn't following the Bible, that's following a worldly system. You are guilty of the thing you accuse me of.
 
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Ohorseman

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Only sadists or masochists enjoy pain. It's shocking that you would defend it, rather than try to alleviate it. I pointed out that patriarchy is oppression, and your response is, "oppression is everywhere," as if it should be accepted. That's quite easy to say when you are on the side of the oppressor, as in this case.
You seem offended. I pray that you not see my comments in this way.

No sir, I do not enjoy pain. I do not defend it. I am just describing what I see.

If every man on the planet dropped dead from some weird virus that only kills men, and continuation of the human race was only by utilizing sperm cells in sperm banks... there would still be pain. No patriarchy. But pain and even oppression. I know that is silly. But I hope you get my point.
Your amateur psychoanalysis of my mental state is not appreciated in the least. You are wrong about everything. Please stop.
I am not qualified for that, not even at an amateur level, LOL. Nor do I pretend to. I only describe what I see.
And to correct your errant assumptions, I have no issue with authority or hierarchy at all. I can and do submit to people of either gender who are in authority over me. Apparently that's a statement you can't make.
Outrageousness is a two way street. But that is okay. Life is outrageous.

I can make the statement though. I do submit to women in certain roles: my mom, my wife (mutual submission - I am the head and she is the heart [body] of the relationship), my female Deacon, my female boss. I have even submitted to my daughters upon occasions, LOL.

I don't have a female bishop nor a priestess though. I just don't see how to set that up and it be in line with the Bible.

Stop patronizing me.
This certainly I am not doing. I honor you where I see that you deserve it. Where I disagree with you I express it and why. You seem more comfortable debating the meaning of old Greek words and phrases, or something like that. Christ never did that. He spoke to people on the level of the head and the heart. Now, certainly I am not saying I am like Him. No. I try. I fail.
It's stunning that you can treat a sex offender as a grandpa, an elder; but you can't even speak to Paidiske because she's a woman in just slightly the wrong shade of Anglicanism.
I agree, it is stunning.

But, "slightly the wrong shade" is a wrong way to see it. It is not slight. It is a dramatic difference. They bless gay unions, and call it "priestly duty". Her boss is an advocate for same sex marriage within the church. Disagreement is not enough. If she would switch over to ACNA and submit to the Biblically based by-laws there of, I would embrace her. But at this point, we are not in communion. Odd how you stand with them though you agree with me being against gay pride.
And your heartwarming story of your love for a pedophile bypassed my point- that patriarchal people like you overlook the most eminently qualified women for positions of leadership and authority in favor of individuals who have no qualifications at all other than being male. This is an abuse of your leadership, and a stifling of women's gifts, and the Lord will hold you accountable.
He is a pedophile. Like most of them, he himself was victimized as a boy. It wounds them and they repeat the wounding. To be assaulted with such sin as a child is such evil. Yet, our society has given kids easy access to inappropriate content and exposes them to gay pride indoctrination... and these things wound them for life. Indeed, it is sheer evil. I do love him, that pedophile. It shocks me. I did not think I could do that. I think it is not me, but the Christ that is in me that is loving him.

The part about qualifications or no qualifications, abuse of leadership, and the stifling... that looks like a worldly assessment to me and outside of the Bible. Like David. The boy had no credentials by human standards. Yet the Lord anointed him. And Christ, with no human credentials, other than being a son of David born in Bethlehem. Born poor. Lived poor. Died criminal. Our King.
That's insulting. Stop taking digs at me. You are implying I'm not a man who grew up in a man's world and have no understanding of it. This is nothing but a subtle ad hominem attack.
You wrongfully ascribe insult. I don't even know what "ad hominem" attack means. And I'm tired of looking things up every time we correspond, LOL.
You already know we're on the same side of the gay issue, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up in this thread. You seem obsessed with it, or you are trying to denigrate me with it. Gay pride people with PhDs are disqualified because of their beliefs and practices, not their gender.
I bring it up because it is an obvious parallel. I know we agree. I know you are not gay. Since we agree on at least that, it escapes me as to why that would offend you. You are reaching it seems.
This is further evidence that you were trying to paint me with the gay pride issue. You bring it up, as if it is relevant, and now you take it a step further, implying my "next" step will be to embrace inappropriate behavior with animals and attempt to defend it on CF. This is another subtle ad hominem attack.
No, sir. I seek common ground. We are both against gay pride. I now even have you calling it that... gay pride. That word captures it all. Actually, I asked that you and I team up if inappropriate behavior with animals becomes a thing to contend with.

I don't think you are reading my comments very closely.

Do you have even one scintilla of evidence supporting this claim? Is the reverse true? Does men teaching girls turn them butch? Why or why not?
Tons. That would be another thread.
The "roles" you are advocating are merely copies of the worldly systems of 1st century Greco-Roman culture. That isn't following the Bible.
You say that because you give credence to the "household codes" argument and other sources outside of the Bible. If you would use scripture to interpret scripture, as you should, you would understand better.

My comments upset you. I am sorry about that. But, I actually think this part is where you should get your academy award and that you exaggerate things to do try and do harm here.

All this makes me think of J. R. R. Tolkien's LOTR. The part where Saruman says to Gandalf, “I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, but you have elected the way of pain." I'm Gandalf, LOL.

these stones.zoom.jpg
 
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Gregorikos

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You seem offended. I pray that you not see my comments in this way.

No sir, I do not enjoy pain. I do not defend it. I am just describing what I see.

To repeat, I pointed out that patriarchy is oppression and causes pain. You did not deny it, but pointed out that oppression and pain are commonplace, and you maintained your support of patriarchy. Whether you realize it or not, that's defending it. That's what "defending it" means.

If every man on the planet dropped dead from some weird virus that only kills men, and continuation of the human race was only by utilizing sperm cells in sperm banks... there would still be pain. No patriarchy. But pain and even oppression. I know that is silly. But I hope you get my point.

No, I don't get your point. You're still defending pain and oppression. We Christians are supposed to be the good guys, comforting the afflicted.

I am not qualified for that, not even at an amateur level, LOL. Nor do I pretend to. I only describe what I see.

I asked you to stop with your amateur psychoanalysis of me. Just stop.

Outrageousness is a two way street. But that is okay. Life is outrageous.

I can make the statement though. I do submit to women in certain roles: my mom, my wife (mutual submission - I am the head and she is the heart [body] of the relationship), my female Deacon, my female boss. I have even submitted to my daughters upon occasions, LOL.

Mutual submission with a spouse or child is not a relationship of hierarchy or authority. Neither is an old man submitting to his mother. I'll give you a maybe on the deacon, and if you have a female boss and submit to her as your authority, good for you.

This certainly I am not doing. I honor you where I see that you deserve it.

This thread isn't about honoring me.

You seem more comfortable debating the meaning of old Greek words and phrases, or something like that. Christ never did that. He spoke to people on the level of the head and the heart. Now, certainly I am not saying I am like Him. No. I try. I fail.

I'd rather not debate the meanings of old Greek words and phrases. That's only necessary when people use them improperly, then fail to learn the right use. Christ never did it because Christ didn't have to. He spoke Hebrew and Greek fluently, and so did everyone else. I'm sure they didn't have many debates over the meanings of words.

I agree, it is stunning.

But, "slightly the wrong shade" is a wrong way to see it. It is not slight. It is a dramatic difference. They bless gay unions, and call it "priestly duty". Her boss is an advocate for same sex marriage within the church. Disagreement is not enough. If she would switch over to ACNA and submit to the Biblically based by-laws there of, I would embrace her. But at this point, we are not in communion. Odd how you stand with them though you see all that for what it is... sin.

Isn't that generous? All she's gotta do is switch over to the ACNA and you'll start talking to her just as if she were a human being. Never mind that she's a priest in Australia, and the nearest ACNA church is only 6000 miles away. She's persona non grata because the church which ordained her is in grievous error on one (1) issue. It isn't her personal stance here that's the issue, it's the church to which she belongs, because of a court decision handed down last year, which did not forbid their churches from blessing same-sex unions. I'm thinking you're taking 1 Corinthians 5 well beyond what was written.

He is a pedophile. Like most of them, he himself was victimized as a boy. It wounds them and they repeat the wounding. To be assaulted with such sin as a child is such evil. Yet, our society has given kids easy access to inappropriate content and exposes them to gay pride indoctrination... and these things wound them for life. Indeed, it is sheer evil. I do love him, that pedophile. It shocks me. I did not think I could do that. I think it is not me, but the Christ that is in me that is loving him.

And you can forgive him for actions he took, but you can't forgive her for actions someone else took.

The part about qualifications or no qualifications, abuse of leadership, and the stifling... that looks like a worldly assessment to me and outside of the Bible. Like David. The boy had no credit by human standards. Yet the Lord anointed him.

The Lord invites us to use our minds to apply the Scriptures. It isn't making a worldly assessment to do so. And how convenient for you to choose David as your example, as if every man teaching Sunday school to teenage boys is like David.

I'm pretty sure you know full well what I'm talking about, but you insist on being deliberately obtuse.

You wrongfully ascribe insult. I don't even know what "ad hominem" attack means. And I'm tired of looking things up every time we correspond, LOL.

If I'm insulted, I'm insulted. You can't tell me I'm wrong about it.

I bring it up because it is an obvious parallel. I know we agree. I know you are not gay. Since we agree on at least that, it escapes me as to why that would offend you. You are reaching it seems.

No. You keep bringing up the gay thing. It has nothing to do with our conversation. You keep trying to make it appear that I support homosexual behavior. I don't and you know that. So stop it. Take it off the table.

No, sir. I seek common ground. We are both against gay pride. I now even have you calling it that... gay pride. That word captures it all. Actually, I asked that you and I team up if inappropriate behavior with animals becomes a thing to contend with.

I don't think you are reading my comments very closely.


I read them closely, I don't think you read what you write closely. Or else you don't think through the implications of what you say.

Tons. That would be another thread.

I doubt it.

You say that because you give credence to the "household codes" argument and other sources outside of the Bible. If you would use scripture to interpret scripture, as you should, you would understand better.

Like it or not, every book of the Bible has a cultural context that lies outside the text but is essential for understanding. You can ignore the household codes if you want to, but you're reading it out of context if you do.
 
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Ohorseman

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To repeat, I pointed out that patriarchy is oppression and causes pain. You did not deny it, but pointed out that oppression and pain are commonplace, and you maintained your support of patriarchy. Whether you realize it or not, that's defending it. That's what "defending it" means.



No, I don't get your point. You're still defending pain and oppression. We Christians are supposed to be the good guys, comforting the afflicted.



I asked you to stop with your amateur psychoanalysis of me. Just stop.



Mutual submission with a spouse or child is not a relationship of hierarchy or authority. Neither is an old man submitting to his mother. I'll give you a maybe on the deacon, and if you have a female boss and submit to her as your authority, good for you.



This thread isn't about honoring me.



I'd rather not debate the meanings of old Greek words and phrases. That's only necessary when people use them improperly, then fail to learn the right use. Christ never did it because Christ didn't have to. He spoke Hebrew and Greek fluently, and so did everyone else. I'm sure they didn't have many debates over the meanings of words.



Isn't that generous? All she's gotta do is switch over to the ACNA and you'll start talking to her just as if she were a human being. Never mind that she's a priest in Australia, and the nearest ACNA church is only 6000 miles away. She's persona non grata because the church which ordained her is in grievous error on one (1) issue. It isn't her personal stance here that's the issue, it's the church to which she belongs, because of a court decision handed down last year, which did not forbid their churches from blessing same-sex unions. I'm thinking you're taking 1 Corinthians 5 well beyond what was written.



And you can forgive him for actions he took, but you can't forgive her for actions someone else took.



The Lord invites us to use our minds to apply the Scriptures. It isn't making a worldly assessment to do so. And how convenient for you to choose David as your example, as if every man teaching Sunday school to teenage boys is like David.

I'm pretty sure you know full well what I'm talking about, but you insist on being deliberately obtuse.



If I'm insulted, I'm insulted. You can't tell me I'm wrong about it.



No. You keep bringing up the gay thing. It has nothing to do with our conversation. You keep trying to make it appear that I support homosexual behavior. I don't and you know that. So stop it. Take it off the table.



I read them closely, I don't think you read what you write closely. Or else you don't think through the implications of what you say.



I doubt it.



Like it or not, every book of the Bible has a cultural context that lies outside the text but is essential for understanding. You can ignore the household codes if you want to, but you're reading it out of context if you do.
In this art, I give Christ green eyes. This points to David, described as having beautiful eyes. And I give Him "ruddy" hair, so as to again point to His Davidic line. Christ came to us in patriarchy. The prayer shawl, or tallit, is something that came from a patriarchal society that is interesting.

The Lord bless you brother. May He shine His light upon you.

kiss Jesus again.jpg
 
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Philip_B

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Christ came to us in patriarchy.
David is mentioned once in John's Gospel.
Moses is mentioned 12 times.

Jesus is as must the Restorer of the Samaritan Hopes, the Prophet like unto Moses of Semitic Hope, as he is the inheritor in David's line.

In the words of John's Gospel, Jesus is the Saviour of the Cosmos.
 
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Ohorseman

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David is mentioned once in John's Gospel.
Moses is mentioned 12 times.

Jesus is as must the Restorer of the Samaritan Hopes, the Prophet like unto Moses of Semitic Hope, as he is the inheritor in David's line.

In the words of John's Gospel, Jesus is the Saviour of the Cosmos.

Well written, brother. Thank you.
 
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Eloy Craft

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The part were you seem to be making something of the text other than the entirely reasonable human understanding that she has acknowledged God in giving thanks for the birth of both of the Cain and Seth.
Now that goes beyond the text by definition. Even if she did give thanks.....Her first statement claims Cain is her product, so God could be thanked for helping. Seth is stated to be a Grace from God. The thanks for the first birth would be lacking the truth of God's role. As well as the role of the father and consequently the proper relationship between all members of the first family.
 
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Eloy Craft

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"roles" you are advocating are merely copies of the worldly systems of 1st century Greco-Roman culture.



The human family is naturally patriarchal. Not just naturally human but proclaimed by the cosmic order. The universe proclaims God's order.

Gen.

He had another dream, and told it to his brothers, saying, “Look, I have had another dream: the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” 10 But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him, and said to him, “What kind of dream is this that you have had? Shall we indeed come, I and your mother and your brothers, and bow to the ground before you?”
 
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Eloy Craft

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More often than not, it's the father that urges the abortion, as my "father" tried to make happen. Patriarchy is more likely to be the cause of abortion than the cure. Thankfully, my parents weren't married and he lacked the control necessary to force her to abort me, or he would have done so.
I guess a loving fathers right to have a say in his child's life would be sin?
 
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Gregorikos

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The human family is naturally patriarchal. Not just naturally human but proclaimed by the cosmic order. The universe proclaims God's order.

Gen.

He had another dream, and told it to his brothers, saying, “Look, I have had another dream: the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” 10 But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him, and said to him, “What kind of dream is this that you have had? Shall we indeed come, I and your mother and your brothers, and bow to the ground before you?”

A prophecy predicting Joseph would be a powerful person , and in authority over all in his family is limited to Joseph alone. It is not a statement that all men everywhere would be in authority over their mothers and fathers and brothers. Your logic doesn't follow at all.
 
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Gregorikos

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I guess a loving fathers right to have a say in his child's life would be sin?

I don't see how you reached that conclusion from anything I said. Of course a loving father should have a right to have a say in his child's life.
 
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Ohorseman

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A prophecy predicting Joseph would be a powerful person , and in authority over all in his family is limited to Joseph alone. It is not a statement that all men everywhere would be in authority over their mothers and fathers and brothers. Your logic doesn't follow at all.
It is not about power like that. Patriarchy is not about power either.

It is patriarchy Divinely proclaimed or pictured using the earthen sky. God gave him the dream. The sun represents the father (primary), the moon represents the mother, and the stars represent the sons. Father is taken back by the idea that they would bow to the young son, Joseph, as it goes against the Godly order. Hence the rebuke. That is what the text is about.

The Bible is rich with messages in symbol form and we should look beyond mere words sometimes for a more complete understanding.
 
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Paidiske

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The human family is naturally patriarchal.

You keep saying that, and I keep asking you to provide some substance for the claim, but you don't.

You could start by defining what you mean by "natural."
 
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Eloy Craft

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A prophecy predicting Joseph would be a powerful person , and in authority over all in his family is limited to Joseph alone. It is not a statement that all men everywhere would be in authority over their mothers and fathers and brothers. Your logic doesn't follow at all.
The father is the sun. Source of light. Symbol of changelessness or stability. In the book of Revelation the Woman is clothed by the sun. She is glorified.
The mother is the moon. Reflects the light of the sun. The moon is a symbol of things that change. In Revelation the Woman stands on the moon. She is no longer subject to change.
 
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Paidiske

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The father is the sun. Source of light. Symbol of changelessness or stability. In the book of Revelation the Woman is clothed by the sun. She is glorified.
The mother is the moon. Reflects the light of the sun. The moon is a symbol of things that change. In Revelation the Woman stands on the moon. She is no longer subject to change.

So a patriarchal culture chooses symbols for masculine/feminine which accord with their misogynistic prejudices (that women are changeful, unstable, secondary), which then get recorded in Scripture. That doesn't mean those symbols or the prejudices which led to their choice are actually appropriate.
 
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