The way in which Adam and Eve and The Garden Paradise is "true", may be beyond our comprehension...

Neogaia777

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The "way" in which Adam and Eve, before, in the "Garden", before being expelled and also possibly maybe even all of Genesis some say, is "true", and the important truth to it, and about it, all of it, and maybe the "big picture" of all of it, right now, maybe anyway, is or may be "beyond our comprehension" right now...? And it is only distant in that way, "Heaven" (or the Kingdom, or Paradise) that is at first likened to and presented to us as an Earth-like "Garden" to us at first, and other likenesses later on, I believe in order to try and convey the common thread, anyhow...

The way in which Adam and Eve and The Garden Paradise is "true", may be beyond our comprehension right now...

It could be talking about another kind of reality, where things are very different... What is being conveyed to us, meant to be a symbol of something higher and better and greater...

Comments?

God Bless!
 
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The "way" in which Adam and Eve, before, in the "Garden", before being expelled and also possibly maybe even all of Genesis some say, is "true", and the important truth to it, and about it, all of it, and maybe the "big picture" of all of it, right now, maybe anyway, is or may be "beyond our comprehension" right now...? And it is only distant in that way, "Heaven" (or the Kingdom, or Paradise) that is at first likened to and presented to us as an Earth-like "Garden" to us at first, and other likenesses later on, I believe in order to try and convey the common thread, anyhow...

The way in which Adam and Eve and The Garden Paradise is "true", may be beyond our comprehension right now...

It could be talking about another kind of reality, where things are very different... What is being conveyed to us, meant to be a symbol of something higher and better and greater...

Comments?

God Bless!

I didn't understand
 
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Tolworth John

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The "way" in which Adam and Eve, before, in the "Garden", before being expelled and also possibly maybe even all of Genesis some say, is "true", and the important truth to it, and about it, all of it, and maybe the "big picture" of all of it, right now, maybe anyway, is or may be "beyond our comprehension" right now...?

Why?
Why should God tell Moses something that he and us cannot understand?
Doesn't God comprehend the limitations of his creations intelligence?
Why can't the ordinary understand of the words used in genesis be used to understand genesis?

God created the earth, he made a garden on a part of the earth and in that garden he place man and that man met with God untill he rebelled againstGod and was expelled into the wider world.

How difficult is it to understand that?
 
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Neogaia777

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The "way" in which Adam and Eve, before, in the "Garden", before being expelled and also possibly maybe even all of Genesis some say, is "true", and the important truth to it, and about it, all of it, and maybe the "big picture" of all of it, right now, maybe anyway, is or may be "beyond our comprehension" right now...? And it is only distant in that way, "Heaven" (or the Kingdom, or Paradise) that is at first likened to and presented to us as an Earth-like "Garden" to us at first, and other likenesses later on, I believe in order to try and convey the common thread, anyhow...

The way in which Adam and Eve and The Garden Paradise is "true", may be beyond our comprehension right now...

It could be talking about another kind of reality, where things are very different... What is being conveyed to us, meant to be a symbol of something higher and better and greater...

Comments?

God Bless!
If someone was to ask me if it is literally true, I would have to say, "I believe, the way in which it is true, is a of a higher truth, about another reality, and for beings, a(nother) state of being, and way of existing, that cannot be conveyed entirely by anything, any "one thing" in this reality..."

That, "what we define as literal, is actually wrong due to our primitive understanding of the concept..."

The way in which it is true, represents a realm, beyond explaining sometimes, and certainly not by, nor limited to, any "one single thing" here... So it sometimes takes multiple things... And this can be quite confusing...

God Bless!
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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The "way" in which Adam and Eve, before, in the "Garden", before being expelled and also possibly maybe even all of Genesis some say, is "true", and the important truth to it, and about it, all of it, and maybe the "big picture" of all of it, right now, maybe anyway, is or may be "beyond our comprehension" right now...? And it is only distant in that way, "Heaven" (or the Kingdom, or Paradise) that is at first likened to and presented to us as an Earth-like "Garden" to us at first, and other likenesses later on, I believe in order to try and convey the common thread, anyhow...

The way in which Adam and Eve and The Garden Paradise is "true", may be beyond our comprehension right now...

It could be talking about another kind of reality, where things are very different... What is being conveyed to us, meant to be a symbol of something higher and better and greater...

Comments?

God Bless!

Is this what really happened?

It was a dark and stormy night. Lucifer, enjoying the destructive actions of the storm, could almost forget the pain of his banishment from the regions of light to this God-forsaken planet. It was a lot better than being cast into hell. Fortunate was he to possess the stewardship title to this place, issued before the unfortunate incident that the so-called good angels called his rebellion. Few and meager were the spoils left him from before his fall. He did have, still, an invitation to convene with the other sons of God at a far future time in heaven, and he was relishing how his appearance there would cause general consternation. It would be good to get off this planet for a moment at least . . .

Lucifer's musings were interrupted by a demonic visitation.

"Greetings, excellent son of the dawn, lord of our light, wisdom of the world, chief of the powers of the air, great dragon", muttered a craven Beelzebub, rushing through the required honorifics. "We have stumbled upon a region on this planet we are not allowed to enter".

"WHAT"? roared the fallen lord of this earth. "That's contrary to my entitlement! Show me the place!"

In a moment, Lucifer and Beelzebub were there. Sure enough, guardian angels barred them from going past a hedge that surrounded the garden of Eden. Every time they tried to force their way in, they were turned back.

Nursing his hurts, Lucifer pondered the irony; he had been so proud when Divine Omniscience had instructed him to share his new, unheard of ideas about defense and attack with Michael back in his days before his banishment. Now his own lessons - Michael knew everything about war that he did - were being turned against him.

He decided to try reasonable debate.

"Why, Michael, are you hindering me from walking on this part of my lawful estate?" he bawled out.

"Oh, its the universal law of justice. You damned and unlawful spirits are not allowed to deal with a free willed creature who bears the image of God."

"WHAT?" roared Lucifer. "That's a blatant violation of my contractual rights to this place! Don't you know I'm the sole proprietor here? You can't bring one of those half breed animal - spirit things to MY domain!"

"Silly demon", sniffed Michael, "Nobody imported this creature here, he evolved naturally, and therefore is rightfully here on his own. And his rights to an uncontaminated spiritual bond with God trump your rights to the place. "

Lucifer looked around, abashed. Sure enough, while he had been brooding for the past 65 million years, ever since he first expressed his rage on the life of this planet on his arrival, hominids had evolved a surprising amount of intelligence. There were lots of them all over the middle east and Africa, but none had any souls . . . yet.

He had spent much time, recently, admiring beetles. Such elegant, endlessly beautiful forms . . . They had been a distraction all along, to keep him from noticing the hominids!

"This man", continued Michael, "started thinking there must be a creator and God. This automatically entitled him to complete protection from such as you and we made this garden for him. He has become an immortal soul. He has a wife now, taken from his own flesh, they two are going to reproduce, enlarge the garden, awaken to understanding eternity their brothers and sisters after the flesh, and when there is no place left on earth for you and your ilk, you will go to . . . . "

He merely pointed in the extra dimensional direction to the place prepared for Lucifer and his followers. No more needed to be said.

Lucifer quailed. His doom was sure. He remembered the clause in his title to the planet - that from the earth itself a life could come that would redeem the planet from his rule and cast him out to his prepared destiny. Not that he was happy now, he definitely wanted to postpone such an event. This monstrous improper blend of animal and spirit - if he merely started sharing his ideas of eternity, God, the spiritual realm . . . the other homo sapiens would awaken to become immortal souls! The whole planet could become infested with enough spiritually able residents to banish him from his only refuge! As for the time it would take - in just a hundred generations, even less, spiritual humanity could fill the globe, leaving him no place to roam! Clearly his time was short.

Back at his lair, he brooded. So long ago, it seemed an eternity now, but he clearly remembered the committee meeting the holy angels had devoted to the creation of this planet. It had taken them six days to design the world and its life forms, how it would be, and they had set up the initial conditions to make them come about through the natural operation of God's laws. As part of the divine allocation of angelic responsibilities, the earth had been assigned to him. When he had been cast out of heaven, the assignment was still valid, because it had been an unconditional assignment. And now . . . it must not escape him!

Finally Lucifer came up with a plan. If he could not enter Eden directly, he could enter Eden, perhaps, by remote control. And if even an angel such as myself can rebel, perhaps the new creature - what was its name? Adam? could be induced to rebel. Maybe even then could be remotely controlled!

He tried remote control on various species, and found it could be accomplished. Soon, a nearby tree snake wandered across the hedge about Eden and began to have conversation with the inhabitants. The plan was simple - get them to sin. Of course, since this naive couple had all their needs met, were perfectly happy, it was a minor difficulty to even figure out how they COULD sin. They didn't seem to have been given any moral guidance he could use to coax them to rebel with. He tried getting Adam to hit Eve. Adam approached it as an experiment to see if pain was still possible. Eve reported it was. But that was the end of that, and they didn't feel shame or guilt, Eve didn't hold a grudge, they seemed just as happy as before, not even knowing what sin even was.

Meanwhile, a truly terrible set of events was taking place. The couple was being educated. Fruit had been prepared with special nerve pattern altering compounds . . . they only had to eat a fruit and learn. Already they had learned a lot about language, mathematics, how to till the ground and raise crops, how to domesticate animals . . . . it wouldn't be long before the present boundaries of Eden would be enlarged or bypassed.

Then one day Eve happened to mention something about a certain tree that carried the knowledge of good and evil. But it wasn't time to eat it yet.

What if they learned it out of sequence?

Lucifer suggested to the woman she should eat the fruit NOW. Eve was reluctant. “The teaching fruit has to be eaten in the correct order”, she objected, “and its not the right time for this one yet! If we eat teaching fruit out of order, bad things can happen, we can even die!”

“You will surely not die”, whispered the snake. “You will merely become like gods, knowing good from evil.”

Eve took a bite. The neural changing chemicals began to do their work. She wasn't fully ready yet. The adjustment process was painful. She had strange, disturbing dreams about sins people could commit . . . sins of violence, sins of lying, sins of adultary, sins of sloth, sins of turning from God, and disobeying God's word . . . .

A vast sense of guilt overcame her. She was downcast, ill, hurting, and looked up to see Adam running over.

“What did you do”? He asked. Are you alright? Are you going to die?

“I ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil”, she said. “I don't think I'm going to die . . .” and she began to cry.

Adam wanted to help her feel better. “You would do well to eat of it yourself, Adam, so you will know how to help her”, suggested the snake.

Adam looked at him in anger. Then at his poor wife. She lifted up her hand, which still held the rest of the fruit. Adam took the fruit and ate the rest all at once.

Once again, the neuron changing chemicals did their thing. Adam had a tremendous headache, then he also experienced visions of people doing terrible, evil deeds. Killing each other over food. Stealing. Arsonists. Solders. Swearing. Lying.

Satan slithered away as fast as he could. His evil work was done.
 
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I see what you mean Neogaia777, about being beyond our human understanding and general perception. One theory that I have been musing on is that Theistic evolution happened in accordance with anthropological evidence and Homo homo sapiens were evolved with the guidance of evolution. Towards the end of the process God literally created a paradise on Earth that was almost in another dimension, a more spiritual place of perfect harmony and as it says, 'the tree of life' was present and afterwards a flaming sword guarded the entrance so this implies to me that we are talking about a different kind of reality, not the purely the physical reality that we inhabit. Adam and Eve had heavenly bodies like those referred to when the resurrection comes and a new heaven on earth is created. Adam and Eve were the first 'Man' and 'Woman', with a divine spark and they then bred the chosen people of Israel.

This is in keeping with Genesis if you take 'man' and his creation as more than just the evolved homo-sapien in 'animal' form and see God's creation of the Jewish people as the first divine people that were then to bring the knowledge of God to the 'Gentiles' also translated 'pagans' who could in a sense be made from evolution.

This theory is a way of me reconciling my firm belief in evolution with my reverence of the Bible and my belief in its veracity. One big flaw is that non-jews are then in a way more animal than a jew and speaking as a non-jew this is a bit of a downer but I believe that God can make anything divine that he chooses therefore Jew and Gentile, when reconciled with God through faith in Jesus Christ, are equally divine.

I apologise to any that find this theory offensive, as I say it is a theory and not something I am wholly tied to. I would be interested to hear any thoughts or rebukes?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I see what you mean Neogaia777, about being beyond our human understanding and general perception. One theory that I have been musing on is that Theistic evolution happened in accordance with anthropological evidence and Homo homo sapiens were evolved with the guidance of evolution. Towards the end of the process God literally created a paradise on Earth that was almost in another dimension, a more spiritual place of perfect harmony and as it says, 'the tree of life' was present and afterwards a flaming sword guarded the entrance so this implies to me that we are talking about a different kind of reality, not the purely the physical reality that we inhabit. Adam and Eve had heavenly bodies like those referred to when the resurrection comes and a new heaven on earth is created. Adam and Eve were the first 'Man' and 'Woman', with a divine spark and they then bred the chosen people of Israel.

This is in keeping with Genesis if you take 'man' and his creation as more than just the evolved homo-sapien in 'animal' form and see God's creation of the Jewish people as the first divine people that were then to bring the knowledge of God to the 'Gentiles' also translated 'pagans' who could in a sense be made from evolution.

This theory is a way of me reconciling my firm belief in evolution with my reverence of the Bible and my belief in its veracity. One big flaw is that non-jews are then in a way more animal than a jew and speaking as a non-jew this is a bit of a downer but I believe that God can make anything divine that he chooses therefore Jew and Gentile, when reconciled with God through faith in Jesus Christ, are equally divine.

I apologise to any that find this theory offensive, as I say it is a theory and not something I am wholly tied to. I would be interested to hear any thoughts or rebukes?

Remember Adam was a gentile. Jews (or more properly, God's chosen people) did not come along until Abraham.
 
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Remember Adam was a gentile. Jews (or more properly, God's chosen people) did not come along until Abraham.

Right, but the lineage of Jesus and the people of Israel goes back to Adam. Whether or not they were named Jews or not is an issue of nomenclature. I mean, they were God's chosen people above any other people in the fact God revealed himself to them from Adam, through Cain and Abel and so on and that they were spoken to and guided by God, it seems more than any other culture. When I say Jew, I mean descended from Adam.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Right, but the lineage of Jesus and the people of Israel goes back to Adam. Whether or not they were named Jews or not is an issue of nomenclature. I mean, they were God's chosen people above any other people in the fact God revealed himself to them from Adam, through Cain and Abel and so on and that they were spoken to and guided by God, it seems more than any other culture. When I say Jew, I mean descended from Adam.

Uh . . . who, then, is not a Jew?
 
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Uh . . . who, then, is not a Jew?

This is all theoretical by the way and just a way for me to reconcile evolution with Genesis but I would say Gentiles, non-jews, were evolved from Chimpanzees up until they reached the status of Homo-Sapien. Jews however were created instantaneously. Both methods are divine because I believe God directs evolution. That's my theory for now that seems to make sense to me.
 
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Petros2015

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Well, let's see.

If God put me in a garden, and told me not to eat the fruit of a particular tree...
And then a naked woman came up to me and said 'here, try this!'...
I'm pretty sure 5 minutes later I'd be blaming the whole thing on her.

So as far as I'm concerned, it's a True story.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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This is all theoretical by the way and just a way for me to reconcile evolution with Genesis but I would say Gentiles, non-jews, were evolved from Chimpanzees up until they reached the status of Homo-Sapien. Jews however were created instantaneously. Both methods are divine because I believe God directs evolution. That's my theory for now that seems to make sense to me.

Because evolution proceeds so slowly by human lifetime standards, you must be assuming that by the time of Adam there were other physically equivalent human specimens around? Is that consistent with your point of view?
 
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Tolworth John

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Because evolution proceeds so slowly by human lifetime standards, you must be assuming that by the time of Adam there were other physically equivalent human specimens around? Is that consistent with your point of view?
Except Jesus said that 'Man was from the begining of creation.' ie man was made as man, there has been no evolution.
Unless of course the sinless Son if God, sinned by telling a little white lie.
 
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Because evolution proceeds so slowly by human lifetime standards, you must be assuming that by the time of Adam there were other physically equivalent human specimens around? Is that consistent with your point of view?

Hi yes, that was the idea. Makes sense to me because I believe in theistic evolution because of the scientific evidence for evolution. But I also believe in the The Garden of Eden.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Hi yes, that was the idea. Makes sense to me because I believe in theistic evolution because of the scientific evidence for evolution. But I also believe in the The Garden of Eden.

That's also how I approach it . . . Adam as the first of homo sapiens to be ensouled. Perhaps he was the first to contemplate eternity and was thereby moved to the garden. But it is a mistake to equate the Adamic line with Israel. Israel only came from Abraham via Isaac, as a special call on Abraham.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Except Jesus said that 'Man was from the begining of creation.' ie man was made as man, there has been no evolution.
Unless of course the sinless Son if God, sinned by telling a little white lie.

Let's get the quote right.

Mark 10:5-6
5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
"But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
NASU

Not really a problem for evolution here. After all, sex goes way back all the way to fish in the sea.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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< shrugs > can't change it, so why think about this ? Apparently people get in trouble adding to or taking away from YHWH'S WORD instead of just believing Him.
(just posted in other thread, then noticed it perfect for here too).

ie it is beyond the comprehension of the world, the fleshly, the carnal,
but not beyond
the children born of YHWH, as He Says, as Written in His Word.
iow: SIMPLE - YHWH made all things SIMPLE; man corrupted it all.
 
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Tolworth John

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Let's get the quote right.

Mark 10:5-6
5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
"But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
NASU

Not really a problem for evolution here. After all, sex goes way back all the way to fish in the sea.

Do read the context.
Jesus was talking about marriage/divorce, which only applies to humans so the verse has nothing to do with evolution but as I said shows that Man has always been man.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Do read the context.
Jesus was talking about marriage/divorce, which only applies to humans so the verse has nothing to do with evolution but as I said shows that Man has always been man.
Yes, ever since man has been around. Has nothing to do with evolution, as you said.
 
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