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The WARTBURG WATCH 2014 -BILL GOTHARD

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Tammy, Feb 22, 2014.

  1. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    A friend shared this link with me...I think Christians of ALL Denominations should read this story.

    Recovering Grace Confronts Bill Gothard | The Wartburg Watch 2014

    I hope that this enrages you like it has me. To think that this man for 40+ years has been teaching youth and families! (All the while, never having been married or had any children of his own - that ought to be a BIG RED FLAG.)

    This kind of thing is happening in ALL Churches, Denominations, etc... The more informed you are of how it happens, the less likely you or your daughter will be a victim.
     
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  2. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    Two days and 85 VIEWS later, and still not one person has commented.

    WHY?

    Do Christians think this subject is not important?

    Has Bill Gothard really been this successful in brainwashing people to not question his integrity?

    I don't understand it, at all.

    If this is at all an indicator of the morality of Christendom, God help us!

    Edmund Burke once said:
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
     
  3. JGiddings

    JGiddings A work in progress.

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    It is not an indicator of the morality of Christendom at all. This is very important for people to know, but it isn't a widespread occurrence. That is not to justify this situation, it's sad.
    Sounds like a cult to me.
     
  4. Ikdgnot

    Ikdgnot New Member

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    It is something that there are no responses. On the one hand Gothard was a lot more influential in the 70's then he is now but as the old saying goes people should study history and learn from it.

    It is sad that so many people followed his teaching without questioning it or verifying that it was really based on scripture. Also, why listen to a man teaching something on family life etc. that never married and if the accounts of him being a workaholic are true then really had an imbalanced life.
     
  5. dayhiker

    dayhiker Mature veteran

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    I took Gothard's Basic Seminar in the early 70's when I was in my 20's. It seemed more mature than many teens could understand that well, so I always wondered why the talk about youth ministry. At the church I was attending it was mostly adults that took it.

    I really enjoyed the material. I got some good insights in scripture and authority that I've used all my life. Each point had a scripture to back up the principle that was being taught. I got some of his follow up material over the next few years. But it seemed to have less value and those was just a way to get money out of people so I stopped following Gothard.

    Looking back I started to see this this type if teaching could be used in a legalistic way. 3 times in my Christian life and zeal for the Lord I've been drawn into legalism for a period. All three times the Holy Spirit backed away from me and with that sense of a distance from God and my desire for a relationship with God being stronger than a desire to obey the rules of men, I returned pretty quickly to loving God and loving people.

    This is where I'd say Gothard's material really falls short. Its not just that all his principles miss the grace of God they also miss the love of God. Loving God and people is to always comes first.

    As to how he treats young girls of a certain look? It fits the pattern to my mind. The one I read, doesn't actually have him do break any specific scripture about sex. But its clear he wasn't loving the girl either and wasn't respecting her boundaries. Which seeing she was so young she didn't know, wasn't brave enough to speak up and and state her boundaries. That I find very sad. I can however relate as I wasn't bold enough to speak my boundaries most of my life. I did remove myself from situations I didn't like, but to speak up, that took decades to do.
     
  6. Doctor Strangelove

    Doctor Strangelove Senior Member

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    Abuse and legalism seem to go together. Since a lot of his legalism seems to center around the idea that women are supposed to "submit" no matter what, it is not that shocking that there are many stories of inappropriate behavior. I'm an old cynic, I guess.
     
  7. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    Well, from what I'm finding out, I think it is a lot more common than you and I would like to think....will post some more evidence soon....
     
  8. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    I think he's still very influential...and sadly, his teachings have been handed down, generation to generation....and their fruit is not good. And you are SO right! - What kind of an authority can a man who isn't married and has no children be on the subject of the family???
     
  9. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    All good counterfeits have ALOT of truth. I'm sure he taught ALOT of truth....but the problem is with the error he taught right along with it. He used the truth to get people to swallow the error...(without them knowing they were swallowing it!)

    I think you are right, he didn't have much of the LOVE of God. I read an account of one woman who said he limited the # of pets one could have...I think it was one dog, and horses were not allowed. He taught that if a woman had a horse, she was not a Christian.... If someone doesn't want pets, that's OK....but if they don't like animals and try to make it appear that people who do love animals are not Christians, well, I think it shows a lot about their character.

    And as far as how he treated young women, he was/is nothing but a PREDATOR and all the world should be warned. And they should be warned not just about him, but about all who accept his teachings (especially of submission) because that lays the ground work for taking advantage of others.
     
  10. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    Very true, Doctor... And the scary thing is that so many men who know so little about the Bible, seem to know a lot about the subject of submission. SCARY!
     
  11. dayhiker

    dayhiker Mature veteran

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    I don't spend much time thinking about submission, but its clear if one wants a patriarchal marriage that its submission to ones husband not to any man that comes along.
     
  12. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    Don't get me wrong! I do believe in submission. But not the way Gothard teaches it. I believe that a Christian woman is to submit to her husband, as long as her husband is submitted to the Lord. If he is not submitted to the Lord, then she only submits to her husband as far as she can, without compromising with the Lord. If her husband wants her to do something that is sin, she should refuse.
     
  13. contango

    contango ...and you shall live...

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    I have to agree, for all people talk like the Biblical picture is one of a husband strutting his stuff and lording it over his wife it seems to me the reality is very different.

    As you say the husband should be submitted to the Lord, and the husband is called to give himself for his wife just as Jesus gave himself for the church. So my wife gets to submit to me, and I get to lay down my life for her. From a secular perspective at least, I think she got the easier option.
     
  14. Norah63

    Norah63 Newbie

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    We become what we behold. Getting teaching from man, then following a man.
    Confirmation is very different. Jesus is the Head of the church.
    Only being led of the Holy Spirit will bring safety to any man woman or child.
    Some people, sad to say, are lazy and want someone else to lead them, they often fall into a snare until they wake up and repent.
     
  15. Doctor Strangelove

    Doctor Strangelove Senior Member

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    Yeah, there are some men will take that one idea about submission, twist it and run with it, but they somehow miss the command in Ephesians for men to be Christ-like. I'm sure it is an honest mistake...
     
  16. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    I find most people look for a religion that teaches what they WANT to believe, rather than searching for the TRUTH and perhaps being faced with the possibility of laying down some of their dearly beloved false theories.... It happens all the time with this subject... Controlling men are drawn like magnets to this false submission doctrine, because it supports what they WANT to do.
     
  17. parsley

    parsley .

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    I think you didn't get many responses, due to the hundreds of pages to read -- the linked page didn't say much about the situation.

    If a girl in that setting were to see it from a normal relational standpoint, they could have thought a relationship was growing out of it. It was still improper, contrived and deceptive, misuse of vulnerable young people, slimy and offensive to the faith.

    I had youth group leaders who hugged a lot. And some that fell in love with younger people who they eventually married. In the 70's, everyone was huggy.

    The stories sounded like he had an old-world view of women, using their attractiveness to boost the reputation of the organization, not seeing their role for skill... and also the personal offenses spoken of.

    Stories like this are good examples in what some of our teachings lead to. We frequently hear Christians insist that submission of women to men is important; that submission to spiritual authorities is critical; that respect for authorities is always appropriate; that women should feel fulfilled by pleasing men and raising children. Where does that take us?

    The parents of these girls trusted the ministry in arranging these jobs -- should the parents have been so trusting? Should the co-workers have defended their authority to the end, or investigated reports of misconduct? It is there that we need to look -- how we handle accusations of wrongdoing.

    What he did was wrong, of course. But if the board of directors and other ministry leaders were working for God, then it seems God would have moved them to take on a few challenges and confront Gothard.

    The workers want to keep their jobs, their level of respectability, their involvement with a large ministry... and in holding these goals higher than justice and honest truth, they allow the ministry to have negative impact. "God's work" moves backward.

    The Hitler example has been used far too many times, but I will use it again. If the people who worked for him had not been so ambitious to promote themselves within the organization, would they have handed him so much power? It is not always about standing behind an ideal... but sometimes neglecting to stand behind one.
     
  18. Tammy

    Tammy Junior Member

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    Some good thoughts, Parsley! Thanks for posting!
     
  19. parsley

    parsley .

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    I felt bad that I didn't read all the articles or stand up more firmly for the victims... will come back to it tmrw.

    -insert-

    Read a few more, and wow I recognized some of the teachings from back in the day. I hadn't read his books, but clearly some of my mentors had.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
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