The War Against Israel: 1948 to Present

[marshlewis]

DEMOGRAPHIC TIME BOMB AGAINST THE MUSLIM WORLD -- AND ALL OF US

An article by David Ignatius in the February 11, 2013 Web edition of Ya Libnan talks about a demographic nightmare hitting the Arab world in this generation, brought on by sharply dropping birth rates.

​

"...What’s “astonishing,” says Eberstadt in an email explaining his findings, is that in the Arab world, this move away from marriage “is by many measures already as far along as was Europe’s in the 1980s — and it is taking place at a vastly lower level of development than the corresponding flights in Europe and developed East Asia.”

"“Something really big is under way — and practically no one has noticed it, even in the Arab world,” argues Eberstadt.

"These studies are a reminder that the big demographic trends shaping the world are mysterious, and often overlooked. The Arab world may be experiencing a youth bulge now, fueling popular uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt and elsewhere. But as Eberstadt notes, what’s ahead over the next generation will probably be declines in the number of working-age adults and rapidly aging populations.'''"

Sharp decline in Muslim fertility rates | Ya Libnan | World News Live from Lebanon

Few have commented lately, that the "Arab Spring" riots that have turned the Middle East upside-down (not for the good), began as protests against the price of government-subsidized bread. As the economies of these countries continue to plummet (especially in Egypt and Syria), the problem can only get worse; and the 8th-Century mentality of the Islamic governments that are arising out of the ashes only exacerbate the matter.

This demographic crisis could not have come at a worse time for the Muslim world, and for the developed regions such as Europe and Japan, which are already being flooded by young Muslims working, often illegally, to support their aging parents back home.

Meanwhile, "Mexico's birth rate, once among the world's highest, is in free-fall" (cf Mexico's population: When the niños run out | The Economist), showing that a parallel situation is happening in the Western Hemisphere. Add all this to an out-of-control global sovereign debt crisis (largely fueled by falling tax revenues and growing social expenses due to the demographic crisis), and you have a world approaching a climax, probably within the coming decade.

I might note here, that the Black Death in Europe in the 1200s actually led to a period of prosperity, as the population was culled. The same might happen with a worldwide nuclear war. That's dark optimism, but sadly true.

I was wondering if this article would get your attention. This is a topic that will come up again in the years to come.

 

[marshlewis]

STRATEGIC SITUATION RADICALLY CHANGING -- IN MIDDLE EAST, AND ALSO THE WORLD

The world's powers seem to be coming around to reality a bit, noticing for the first time that they are deeply in debt AND NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

One example of this is the budget reduction process in the US: With no other solution in sight, the defense budget is finally being hacked; and one of the programs being eliminated is a pie-in-the-sky project with a scant benefit-to-cost ratio: our antimissile defense system. This includes the Patriot missiles stationed just a few weeks ago in Turkey, similar missiles in Israel, and the largely Israeli-built Iron Dome. The latter system was touted as a great success; but in fact, it allowed enough of the low-intensity missile barrage from Gaza get through to cause serious damage; and would be utterly useless against a barrage of 50,000 advanced Iranian missiles arrayed against Israel in Lebanon.

The Patriot missiles were supposed to protect Turkey and Europe from Syrian and Iranian attacks, which we now know they cannot do. The only thing those batteries have accomplished, it seems, is to antagonize the Russians who saw those missiles as directed against them. By abandoning the Patriot program, our defense department has at one time won favor with Moscow, and made at least some headway towards balancing our budget.

For all the benefit of this new to the US, what it means in the Middle East is that Israel and Turkey can no longer be lulled into complacency as the Iranians furiously pursue a nuclear weapons program that will be directed against both of them. On Israel's part, that means Israel must make serious plans to take out the Iranian program on its own, and the US has to seriously plan how to deal with the consequences in the Persian Gulf. I imagine that will be a MAJOR part of what US President Obama discusses with Israeli PM Netanyahu when the former visits Israel next month.

On Turkey's part, what all this means is that Turkey cannot rely on American protection as much as she might have thought she could; and that Turkey has to re-evaluate its policies towards neighbors such as Iran and Syria. Turkey may decide "If you can't beat them, join them", and put into high gear a push towards alliance with Iran that it has been haltingly edging towards for years.

For the US, what this means is some temporary relief from the burden of being the world's policeman -- a relief that won't last long, seeing that if Iran can launch a satellite big enough to hold a monkey plus life-support systems into high orbit, it can also deliver a nuclear warhead anywhere on earth -- including the US, which could be thrown back into the pre-industrial age through the detonation of just a few high-altitude EMP bursts (with casualties in the tens or hundreds of millions).

The latest:

"US withdrawal from Europe-based missile shield will impact Israel’s defense
DEBKAfile Special Report February 11, 2013, 12:05 AM (GMT+02:00)

""Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Sunday, Feb. 10 echoed supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s rejection of direct talks with the US four days ago which he said were on the grounds that they “would solve nothing” because, "You are holding a gun against Iran.”

"Ahmadinejad added is own rider to this dismissal: “God willing, soon Iran’s satellite will be located in orbit at an altitude of 36,000 kilometers, next to others from four or five advanced powers and it will relay a message of peace and fidelity to the world,” he said.

The boast that Iran would soon be the world’s sixth space power came two weeks after Tehran claimed to have put a monkey in orbit around earth, although it did not report bringing back to earth either the space capsule or the monkey..."

-- US withdrawal from Europe-based missile shield will impact Israel’s defense

This is very interesting, I think I might have a google session on this one.

 

[marshlewis]

I was wondering if this article would get your attention. This is a topic that will come up again in the years to come.

That sounds a little dismissive of your attention because you dont miss much. I meant it as a compliment to your research skills.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I was wondering if this article would get your attention. This is a topic that will come up again in the years to come.

Are you prophesying, Marsh? I think it's strange, that in a matter as doctrinally explosive as the imminent arrival of the end of the world, atheists and "Fundie" Christians are almost lock-step in agreement.

I was thinking in a dream, a little while ago, about how our faith determines what we do. Christians have a faith picture of heaven or hell awaiting them, and of course, the near-certainty of death. They therefore live their lives in such a way that they might go to heaven after death. What do atheists see? They see the near-certainty of death, and nothing beyond it, making their lives an act of futility; yet they continue to live, and to do what they can to continue their existence; and when the dark hour draws near, some or all seek immortality in fame or monuments, on an earth they know is also certainly doomed to die. As Mr. Spock would say, it's "illogical".

​

If you haven't read all the Bible yet, start at the book of Ecclesiastes. It's my favorite book. It begins,

Qoh. 1
[1] The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
[2] Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
[3] What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
[4] One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
[5] The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
[6] The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
[7] All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
[8] All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
[11] There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

I did know that the Arab birth rate had fallen tremendously in Israel, including the lands liberated in 1967. I didn't know precisely the situation in the rest of the Islamic world. I also knew that the Arabs are faced with a crisis, brought on mostly by the Internet: They are in truly intimate contact with the rest of the world, whether they like it or not: A world of ideas; and among those ideas is the gospel. This is not the world of fleeting ideas, which our minds have pre-categorized as nonesense; it is the world of ideas that implant themselves in our minds and drive our actions; and those actions engender more ideas, which also harmonize with the scriptures. In the end, once one has tasted of these things, he is forced to either accept or reject them, with every fiber of his being. That world of ideas is what I call the Spirit World; and every one of us lives in it.

Islam also exists in this World of Ideas; but it is weak, and easily overwhelmed; because when one begins to live out those ideas, they don't harmonize with the reality around him unless he lives in a self-contained Sharia State. This is what is driving Muslim country after Muslim country to embrace, contrary to ordinary reason, a world with only two choices: Sharia or death. And as they fall deeper and deeper into the Sharia pit, their economies crumble; and war, famine and pestilence follow close behind. Their only alternative is unthinkable: accepting Western culture, and ultimately the gospel, as truth.

So you see, I have seen for some time that an apocalypse awaits the Muslim world. It awaits the Atheist world too; because the deeper science probes into the Universe, the more it lines up with the Bible. Societies that embrace atheism, including the United Nations of the world, are headed for a world of moral corruption, economic bankruptcy and death; yet the deeper they invest their lives into that sub-world of ideas, the more they find they must oppose the Bible, with every fiber of their beings; and the more they oppose the Bible, the deeper into the hole they get.

How will the atheist world solve the global debt crisis? By hooking everyone to a central banking system, and implanting chips in them to ensure that they personally stay within IMF guidelines? That system will fail; yet the Bible has a solution to debt that cannot fail: forgiveness. And it has an economic system that cannot be taxed, that provides for young and old alike, regardless of demographics: charity. In the world of ideas, the Bible stands on two legs; all the others stand on one leg, and they will ultimately fail.

"Ecclesiastes" means "The Preacher". Thus ends the preaching of this preacher.

My New Zealand national son-in-law is staying with us, along with my daughter and grandchildren. They're as cute as bugs. Have a wonderful day, in the land of sheeeeeeep.

Shalom shalom

 

[BlandOatmeal]

This is very interesting, I think I might have a google session on this one.

While you're at it, you might look this up:

"Lack of Funding Affects USS Lincoln Refueling and Complex Overhaul
By US Navy on Tuesday, February 12th, 2013

​

"Lincoln was expected to move to Newport News shipyard next week to begin the overhaul. However, as a result of the fiscal constraints resulting from the ongoing continuing resolution (CR), the contract for the refueling complex overhaul (RCOH) has not been issued...

"Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/lack-of-funding-affects-uss-lincoln-refueling-and-complex-overhaul-46719/#ixzz2KhZ3KLox"

-- Lack of Funding Affects USS Lincoln Refueling and Complex Overhaul | Navy & Maritime Security News at DefenceTalk

Budget cuts are DEEPLY undermining the military capabilities of the US, leaving the rest of the world to largely fend for itself for a while. In my thinking, this means MORE war, not less; and it means wars between regional powers over strictly regional matters: such as between Turkey and Israel over the "Zionist Occupation".

 

[marshlewis]

Are you prophesying, Marsh? I think it's strange, that in a matter as doctrinally explosive as the imminent arrival of the end of the world, atheists and "Fundie" Christians are almost lock-step in agreement.

I was thinking in a dream, a little while ago, about how our faith determines what we do. Christians have a faith picture of heaven or hell awaiting them, and of course, the near-certainty of death. They therefore live their lives in such a way that they might go to heaven after death. What do atheists see? They see the near-certainty of death, and nothing beyond it, making their lives an act of futility; yet they continue to live, and to do what they can to continue their existence; and when the dark hour draws near, some or all seek immortality in fame or monuments, on an earth they know is also certainly doomed to die. As Mr. Spock would say, it's "illogical".

​

If you haven't read all the Bible yet, start at the book of Ecclesiastes. It's my favorite book. It begins,

Qoh. 1
[1] The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
[2] Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
[3] What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
[4] One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
[5] The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
[6] The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
[7] All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
[8] All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
[11] There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

I did know that the Arab birth rate had fallen tremendously in Israel, including the lands liberated in 1967. I didn't know precisely the situation in the rest of the Islamic world. I also knew that the Arabs are faced with a crisis, brought on mostly by the Internet: They are in truly intimate contact with the rest of the world, whether they like it or not: A world of ideas; and among those ideas is the gospel. This is not the world of fleeting ideas, which our minds have pre-categorized as nonesense; it is the world of ideas that implant themselves in our minds and drive our actions; and those actions engender more ideas, which also harmonize with the scriptures. In the end, once one has tasted of these things, he is forced to either accept or reject them, with every fiber of his being. That world of ideas is what I call the Spirit World; and every one of us lives in it.

Islam also exists in this World of Ideas; but it is weak, and easily overwhelmed; because when one begins to live out those ideas, they don't harmonize with the reality around him unless he lives in a self-contained Sharia State. This is what is driving Muslim country after Muslim country to embrace, contrary to ordinary reason, a world with only two choices: Sharia or death. And as they fall deeper and deeper into the Sharia pit, their economies crumble; and war, famine and pestilence follow close behind. Their only alternative is unthinkable: accepting Western culture, and ultimately the gospel, as truth.

So you see, I have seen for some time that an apocalypse awaits the Muslim world. It awaits the Atheist world too; because the deeper science probes into the Universe, the more it lines up with the Bible. Societies that embrace atheism, including the United Nations of the world, are headed for a world of moral corruption, economic bankruptcy and death; yet the deeper they invest their lives into that sub-world of ideas, the more they find they must oppose the Bible, with every fiber of their beings; and the more they oppose the Bible, the deeper into the hole they get.

How will the atheist world solve the global debt crisis? By hooking everyone to a central banking system, and implanting chips in them to ensure that they personally stay within IMF guidelines? That system will fail; yet the Bible has a solution to debt that cannot fail: forgiveness. And it has an economic system that cannot be taxed, that provides for young and old alike, regardless of demographics: charity. In the world of ideas, the Bible stands on two legs; all the others stand on one leg, and they will ultimately fail.

"Ecclesiastes" means "The Preacher". Thus ends the preaching of this preacher.

My New Zealand national son-in-law is staying with us, along with my daughter and grandchildren. They're as cute as bugs. Have a wonderful day, in the land of sheeeeeeep.

Shalom shalom

Ok first of all, Of course your grandchildren are cute, thats just an evolutionary explainable result of being New Zealanders.

If Atheists can almost universely find meaning in life without gods, then its hardly credible that they lack some essential knowledge. Really it suggests the opposite.

I dont believe that Islam is weak in the battle of ideas because they can make use and do make use of the violence idea in the defence of other central ideas to Islam. This is something that is totally denied to dead religions. Violence as a legitimate defense has been mostly tamed in christianity and other current religions. For this reason Islam is able to influence policy far more than christianity in those countries where they dominate.
Basically without the real threat of violence, there is nothing to pick between the religions in the realm of ideas.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Ok first of all, Of course your grandchildren are cute, thats just an evolutionary explainable result of being New Zealanders.

If Atheists can almost universely find meaning in life without gods, then its hardly credible that they lack some essential knowledge. Really it suggests the opposite.

I dont believe that Islam is weak in the battle of ideas because they can make use and do make use of the violence idea in the defence of other central ideas to Islam. This is something that is totally denied to dead religions. Violence as a legitimate defense has been mostly tamed in christianity and other current religions. For this reason Islam is able to influence policy far more than christianity in those countries where they dominate.
Basically without the real threat of violence, there is nothing to pick between the religions in the realm of ideas.

Hi, Marsh

In talking with you, I have an advantage (as opposed to talking to Christians, etc. here) in that we can talk about weighty matters without having them labeled as "religious" and "proselytizing" (hopefully). There is still the "staying off the topic" danger, though, so I will be careful to tie in what you said to the OP somehow. You said,

If Atheists can almost universely find meaning in life without gods, then its hardly credible that they lack some essential knowledge. Really it suggests the opposite.

I don't see how you can see atheists "almost univers[all]y find anything, seeing that you do not have a unified corpus of belief. I know that atheists have a "god" of sorts, in the larger-than-life statue of Darwin

​

(appropriately, he was a theologian and not a scientist); and admittedly, the man had a Mosaic sort of influence on the atheist world. He did not produce any sort of a "bible", though, that atheists can cling to for any set of ethics nor indeed, even for a worldview.

The unanimity among atheists concerning a "meaning of life" can only be deduced by deductive reasoning, given the axiom that God does not exist. By this process, there IS no meaning beyond what we can experience sensually; and that is something of an empty slate: write on it whatever you want. Morals? There are none, because there is nothing moral or immoral in a sensually-driven existence. Truth? There is no absolute truth; every theory is merely the consensus opinion of the day, like the Phlogistan and Spontaneous Generation theories of the mid-1700s, and the Steady State theory of the mid-1900s. It all seems rather rudderless to me.

Concerning "essential knowledge", I am, of course, talking about knowledge of the world beyond that which is sensually experienced -- too small for our microscopes, too swift to be recorded, and also beyond the confines of space and time in our finite universe, as well as the future. All these are inaccessable to a sensually-driven person, but intimately known, by His very definition, by the all-knowing God of the Bible. They are unattainable, except through extraordinary revelation. Philosophically, atheists allow that such things exist (and for this reason, they postulate that the earth is not actually the very center of the universe, though all their measurements indicate that it is). They have no objective view into this world, though, being able only to mentally extrapolate from what they observe in their sensory realm.

Philosophically, many atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, allow for the existence of intelligent life elsewhere within the universe; but they dogmatically deny its existence (namely, a God called "I Am") outside of the know universe. If Dawkins and others were to use the same measure for both realms, they would allow for the existence of a God; and if such a God were intelligent, as we are (the same as is assumed of some extraterrestrial life in the universe), then it is perfectly reasonable that such a God would be able to, and probably want to, communicate with us.

The only thing remaining in order to obtain this knowledge, then would be to find an extant, claimed, revelation that harmonizes with what we sensually know of the universe. Pagan religions have mostly unwritten, oral traditions that most agree do not fulfill this requirement. There are only a few written, preserved, systematic revelations of gods and of the nature of the world. Of these, besides the Bible and variants (such as Koran), the Indian systems based on the Vedic literature are the best known.

Turning this back to the OP, to hopefully get some "Current Events" credentials to all this, all current events, including the ongoing war against Israel, are actually happening in the near future; and what we know of them is already past. They have meaning to us, only if we have a glimpse into the future. To the atheist, that future is a philosophically-driven extension of the near and far past. To the theist, on the other hand, that future has already been divinely revealed. The two outlooks should converge to a considerable extent; and between you and me, I think they do.

You said further,

I dont believe that Islam is weak in the battle of ideas because they can make use and do make use of the violence idea in the defence of other central ideas to Islam. This is something that is totally denied to dead religions. Violence as a legitimate defense has been mostly tamed in christianity and other current religions. For this reason Islam is able to influence policy far more than christianity in those countries where they dominate.

Basically without the real threat of violence, there is nothing to pick between the religions in the realm of ideas.

By "Islam" here, I presume you mean Neo-Salafist Jihadism. The jihadis certainly do make a statement; but their strength is not in NITRAM 5 and RPGs; it is in their ability to control the minds of the masses. In that battle, they are not very strong. Afghanistan is a case in point: The US and its military allies trained and financed the Taliban, taking advantage of the revulsion among the populace to domination by the Soviets. The Taliban were initially well received, particulary in the Pashtun areas; but once they began usurping local authority and bossing people around, popular resentment grew, to the point that with just a little help from NATO, the Northern Alliance walked over the country with little opposition. This scenario is repeating itself in Syria, where there is already growing opposition among the populace in "liberated" areas to Al-Nusri.

Weapons are irreligious and amoral. In the end, it is the SPIRITUAL force of ideas, working in men's minds and hence in their lives, that directs those weapons. In that world, Islam is weak; because it does not jibe well with reality. Islam has a very strong suit in the area of justice and punishment, compared to modern, liberal western values. Capital punishment, for example, which Islam espouses, is an effective and needed deterrent to serious crime. Modest dress is also a strong deterrent against society-destabilizing immorality. Both of these, of course, are also espoused by the Bible; so Islam has no advantage there. Where Islam falls very short of the mark, though, is in its view of man's proper place being something like that of a robot of the divine. The Bible, by contrast, gives Divine sanction to individuality and free enquiry. That is a very powerful advantage over world philosophies.

There is a physical war going on against Israel today, waged by so many armies, nations and NGOs that that tiny country ought to have been demolished by now and its people driven into the sea. This hasn't happened, though. Instead, Israel's closest and fiercest enemies are busy killing one another, and its wealthiest enemies are being confounded by the effects of corruption and greed. That's a testimony of the power of the spiritual realm over the natural. In the near future, I expect some concerted efforts to be mounted against Israel; I expect them to ultimately fail; and I expect the victory to be brought about by what happens in people's minds rather than what weapons they have access to.

Shalom shalom

Icon fun:

The happy, hoppy cleric strikes again. Let us pray that he stays far from us.

 

[interpreter]

Our jails and prisons are overflowing with atheists who have no values.
Getting back to the OP, the Battle of Ar Mageddon, now unfolding, must be fought to its conclusion, then there will be peace for a thousand years.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Our jails and prisons are overflowing with atheists who have no values.
Getting back to the OP, the Battle of Ar Mageddon, now unfolding, must be fought to its conclusion, then there will be peace for a thousand years.

I think you'll find that our jails are mostly filled with Christians. As for the Atheists, I would guess they have values as strongly adhered to as those of the Christians. My only contention with MarshLewis on the matter, was that they had no basis in any "Atheist" doctrinal corpus.

My OP was not about the Battle of Ar Mageddon, but about the ongoing war against Israel. Ar Mageddon was just the final campaign of that battle. The things I was talking to MarshLewis about are central to this war. As the Apostle Paul said,

Eph 6
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

"All nations" are to be gathered against Jerusalem to battle, in the final pre-Messianic battle, which you call Ar Mageddon. "That, of course, is a future event and not a current event. The battle in the spirit, however, which is happening right now and is revealed in fora such as the UN, is happening today. The rulers of the earth are conspiring against Israel there, and against the people of God; but no blood is being spilled in those chambers. It is in those chambers, though, that the OUTCOME of that spiritual battle will probably be decided: namely, a UN-sanctioned attack on Israel.

I have been working on a map, graphically displaying the alliances in the world. These alliances are on two tiers: On the one hand, there are those countries militarily connected to the US, such as the NATO countries, Saudi Arabia, etc., vs. those connected with the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), such as China and Russia. Other blocs are centered on Iran and on the Salafists, respectively.

On the other hand, there are those countries which vote with the US in the UN, those who vote about half the time with the US and half the time with China, and those who vote about the same as China. This is the "spiritual" side of the conflict, the side that reveals the hearts of the people in those countries. Over half the people in the world are militarily allied with the US, but vote like the Chinese; and a large percentage of those people are Christians.

Concerning the Atheists, they are concentrated in the SCO and in the Germany-Italy-Japan axis that includes the EU. Marsh's country of New Zealand is in this group. Along with the atheists there, are tens of millions of nominal Christians. Just as the German Christians were in WWII, they are, on the average, rather rudderless when it comes to morality; though they tend to be rather adamant in the morality they concoct, and want to impose it on everyone. This is reflected in their UN votes.

Concerning Ar Mageddon, the campaign will require Security Council authorization. The five SC veto states are (with their color on the map):

1. the US (blue)

2. the UK (dark blue)
3. France (dark blue)

4. Russia (yellow)
5. China (yellow).

As of today, the "blue" bloc supports Israel; the "dark blues" and "yellows" are generally against Israel. When the US turns against Israel, the battle will be on; but that is not a current event. According to prophetic chronology from the Bible, moreover, another event has to happen between now and then, namely, the attack on Israel by the Gog coaliton, which is Turkey. That will require Turkey aligning itself with Iran, something that has not happened yet; and therefore this also is not a current event.

My purpose in bringing up the above prophetic events, is to indicate the direction that current events are bound to take. On the surface, Turkey is currently a member of NATO -- which is opposed to Al Qaeda in Mali, indifferent to them in Libya and supportive of them in Syria. Just looking at a situation like that without a clear prophetic picture, makes a hard-to-understand muddle. If one considers that Turkey is moving toward an alliance with Iran, though, and that Al Qaeda is relatively irrelevant in the scheme of things, then one can make a bit more sense of what is happening.

 

[interpreter]

I think you'll find that our jails are mostly filled with Christians. As for the Atheists, I would guess they have values as strongly adhered to as those of the Christians. My only contention with MarshLewis on the matter, was that they had no basis in any "Atheist" doctrinal corpus.

My OP was not about the Battle of Ar Mageddon, but about the ongoing war against Israel. Ar Mageddon was just the final campaign of that battle. The things I was talking to MarshLewis about are central to this war. As the Apostle Paul said,

Eph 6
[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

"All nations" are to be gathered against Jerusalem to battle, in the final pre-Messianic battle, which you call Ar Mageddon. "That, of course, is a future event and not a current event. The battle in the spirit, however, which is happening right now and is revealed in fora such as the UN, is happening today. The rulers of the earth are conspiring against Israel there, and against the people of God; but no blood is being spilled in those chambers. It is in those chambers, though, that the OUTCOME of that spiritual battle will probably be decided: namely, a UN-sanctioned attack on Israel.

I have been working on a map, graphically displaying the alliances in the world. These alliances are on two tiers: On the one hand, there are those countries militarily connected to the US, such as the NATO countries, Saudi Arabia, etc., vs. those connected with the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), such as China and Russia. Other blocs are centered on Iran and on the Salafists, respectively.

On the other hand, there are those countries which vote with the US in the UN, those who vote about half the time with the US and half the time with China, and those who vote about the same as China. This is the "spiritual" side of the conflict, the side that reveals the hearts of the people in those countries. Over half the people in the world are militarily allied with the US, but vote like the Chinese; and a large percentage of those people are Christians.

Concerning the Atheists, they are concentrated in the SCO and in the Germany-Italy-Japan axis that includes the EU. Marsh's country of New Zealand is in this group. Along with the atheists there, are tens of millions of nominal Christians. Just as the German Christians were in WWII, they are, on the average, rather rudderless when it comes to morality; though they tend to be rather adamant in the morality they concoct, and want to impose it on everyone. This is reflected in their UN votes.

Concerning Ar Mageddon, the campaign will require Security Council authorization. The five SC veto states are (with their color on the map):

1. the US (blue)

2. the UK (dark blue)
3. France (dark blue)

4. Russia (yellow)
5. China (yellow).

As of today, the "blue" bloc supports Israel; the "dark blues" and "yellows" are generally against Israel. When the US turns against Israel, the battle will be on; but that is not a current event. According to prophetic chronology from the Bible, moreover, another event has to happen between now and then, namely, the attack on Israel by the Gog coaliton, which is Turkey. That will require Turkey aligning itself with Iran, something that has not happened yet; and therefore this also is not a current event.

My purpose in bringing up the above prophetic events, is to indicate the direction that current events are bound to take. On the surface, Turkey is currently a member of NATO -- which is opposed to Al Qaeda in Mali, indifferent to them in Libya and supportive of them in Syria. Just looking at a situation like that without a clear prophetic picture, makes a hard-to-understand muddle. If one considers that Turkey is moving toward an alliance with Iran, though, and that Al Qaeda is relatively irrelevant in the scheme of things, then one can make a bit more sense of what is happening.

Ar Mageddon is next, and it does not require Security Council authorization. And the US will never turn against Israel. Ar Mageddon is started by demon-possessed kings of the east, and the Good News is, Israel and the west wins.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Ar Mageddon is next, and it does not require Security Council authorization. And the US will never turn against Israel. Ar Mageddon is started by demon-possessed kings of the east, and the Good News is, Israel and the west wins.

Interpreter, if you want me to seriously entertain your dogmatic assertions about the end times, you will have to present scriptural evidence; and by this, I mean SCRIPTURE AGREEING WITH SCRIPTURE. Absent that, you are just spouting off baseless opinions. You should start, by making a serious effort to identify the kings representing the ten horns of the beast, which Revelation says will lead the battle against Israel.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

WHEN OBAMA VISITS ISRAEL, WILL ISRAEL HAVE A GOVERNMENT?

US President Obama plans to visit Israel on 20 March this year, to confer with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu -- presumably about weighty matters, such as Iran and Syria, along with theatrical issues such as talks with Palestinian Arabs (WHICH Arabs? Abbas? HAMAS? About what? Not recognizing Israel's existence, that is for certain). The main question at this point, is whether PM Netanyahu will even have a ruling coalition then.

Israel's Parliament, called the Knesset, has 120 members, who were chosen in an election last month. To form a governing coalition, then, requires 61 members working together. They are grouped together in parties:

Likud-Beiteinu (Netanyahu and Lieberman) 31 seats
Kadima (Shaul Mofaz) 2 seats
Yesh Atid (Yair Lapid) 19 seats
Jewish Home (Naftali Bennett) 12 seats
2 Religious parites (Shas, UTJ) 18 seats
Hatnuah (Tzippi Livni) 6 seats
Labor (Shelley Yacimovich) 15 seats
Meretz (Far Left) 6 seats
3 Arab parties 11 seats.

Yesh Atid and Jewish Home have agreed to act as a bloc of 31 seats, so that Netanyahu can partner with both but not with just one. Competing with them are the religious parties, who will not sit in a government that includes Yesh Atid. The Arabs and Leftist parties, meanwhile, have not shown any indication of wanting to help Netanyahu form a government

According to the Jerusalem Post,

"Netanyahu intended to build a coalition with the 57 MKs of Likud Beytenu, Shas, UTJ, The Tzipi Livni Party and Kadima, and then give Bennett a choice between joining the coalition without Lapid or initiating an election in which the Left could come to power."

-- http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=303585

An obvious coalition would include Likud-Beiteinu, Yesh Atid, Jewish Home and Kadima, with 65 seats total, as all these parties agree with one another on most issues. Mr. Netanyahu, however, does not want to be in a position to have to depend on Bennett (a rising star, whom Netanyahu bitterly attacked during the campaign) and Lapid (who has made no secret of wanting to become the next PM). Unless the impasse is broken, President Obama may end up having to talk with a lame duck Israeli PM -- which means that whatever points he wishes to make will be in vain.

IS THE PARTY OVER?

Coalition partners Avigdor Lieberman (L) and Binyamin Netanyahu (R).
​

 

[BlandOatmeal]

ISRAEL-JORDAN RELATIONS BECOMING DOWNRIGHT UPBEAT

"Excerpts:Israel natural gas to Jordan. Israel alternative to Suez Canal.
Joint Gulf Force -Peninsula Shield Hizbullah's unprecedented 'land invasion'
in Syria. Islamist rise impact on UAE-Egypt Monday, February 18, 2013..

"Excerpts:Aswat Masriya via Egypt Daily news:The Times: Israel's rail route
to rival Suez Canal on track”

-- IMRA - Monday, February 18, 2013 Excerpts:Israel natural gas to Jordan. Israel alternative to Suez Canal. Joint Gulf Force -Peninsula Shield Hizbullahs unprecedented land invasion in Syria. Islamist rise impact on UAE-Egypt Monday, February 18, 2013

Israel has had two major conflicts with the Arab Legion of Jordan, in 1948-51 and again in 1967. In 1994, the two countries signed a definitive peace agreement, in which Jordan recognized the Jewish State of Israel and abdicated any land claims to the "West Bank" and Jerusalem. Egypt had done the same concerning Gaza in 1979.

Despite the claims of some radical Zionists, based on historical Jewish ownership and settlement of much of Jordan, the country is not part of the original Land of Canaan given to Israel at Mount Sinai; neither is any part of Jordan allotted to Israel in any end-time prophecies (Ezekiel explicitly excludes it). Concerning Egypt and Iraq, Isaiah 19 prophesies that in the end times they both will have not only peace with Israel, but a special relationship with God alongside Israel. Lebanon and Syria are a different matter; for nearly all of Lebanon and the southern part of Syria are both shown as part of the future Israel by Ezekiel (as well as having been part of the original Canaan). In the end times, when Iraq is at peace with Israel, Isaiah says there will be a road connecting Egypt with Iraq through Israel. Historically, such a road went through Syria, though a modern road exists through Jordan.

Zechariah prophesied, in ch. 14, that "all the nations of the world" would attack Israel in the final war. If one considers that this war began in 1948, then the countries of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Egypt have already done their part. There is no Biblical reason to expect any more conflicts between Israel and these nations. In fact, Ezekiel 38-39 predicts that in the end times Israel will become prosperous (and indeed, it is becoming more prosperous by the day, as oil and gas deposits open up in her); and that her main enemies will be Turkey, Iran, Sudan and Egypt.

I presented a map, a few posts ago, that showed the current state of international diplomatic and defense relationships. I apologize, in that it looks rather hodgepodge. I made a new map, shown below:

The map has the following color-coding:

Blue: The US and its diplomatic and military allies: Canada, Israel and some Pacific islands.

Red: Military allies of the US, who side half the time with the US in the UN, and half the time against it.

Purple: Turkey, which is in transition between "Red" and "Orange" designations

Green: Military allies of the US, who consistently vote against the US in the UN

Orange: Countries which consistently vote against the US, and are allied with both NATO and the SCO -- along with militarily dependent countries.

Yellow: Countries which consistently vote against the US, and are militarily allied with the SCO countries and their dependents. (SCO is the "Shanghai Cooperation Organization", started by Russia, China and some Central Asian countries).

The importance of the map concerning Israel, is:

1. Iran and Sudan are both in the SCO bloc, with which Turkey is a dialog partner. These, along with Libya (which is currently in a state of near-anarchy) form the Ezekiel 38 coalition.

2. Despite the end of the Cold War, the world is still divided into competing blocs, armed with nuclear arsenals aimed at one another. This accords with the culmination in a nuclear exchange inferred in Zech 14, among the nations attacking Israel in the last days.

3. The "Blue" and "Red" areas of the map are all NATO partners. Curiously, the "Red" areas coincide closely with Hitler's Rome-Berlin-Tokyo axis, plus remnants of the British Empire dominions. Together, the red areas almost certainly contain the "ten horns" of the "beast that came out of the sea" of Revelation; and the US may be the "little horn" mentioned by Daniel 7:8, that uproots three of the ten (possibly Italy, Germany and Japan) and becomes the foremost power on earth. Revelation 19 says that these will lead the final assault against Israel:

Rev 19
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

"Interpreter" denies that this will happen, ignoring the "Elephant in the living room", the US, which clearly fulfills its role in prophecy:

Rev 13
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I believe the gathering of the nations against Israel at "Armageddon" is simply the last campaign of the War against Israel. The Ezekiel 38 attack is probably part of this war; and it will certainly precede the final campaign by at least seven years (cf. Eze 39). Preceding that, is what we have already witnessed these past decades: war against Israel by her immediate neighbors.

Shalom shalom

Image source: http://white-x-dragon.deviantart.com/art/Map-of-Europe-1956-274607870

This last map is similar to my own understanding, but not identical. I just noticed how Europe looks like a red dragon in my own map.

 

[Supreme]

ISRAEL-JORDAN RELATIONS BECOMING DOWNRIGHT UPBEAT

"Excerpts:Israel natural gas to Jordan. Israel alternative to Suez Canal.
Joint Gulf Force -Peninsula Shield Hizbullah's unprecedented 'land invasion'
in Syria. Islamist rise impact on UAE-Egypt Monday, February 18, 2013..

"Excerpts:Aswat Masriya via Egypt Daily news:The Times: Israel's rail route
to rival Suez Canal on track”

-- IMRA - Monday, February 18, 2013 Excerpts:Israel natural gas to Jordan. Israel alternative to Suez Canal. Joint Gulf Force -Peninsula Shield Hizbullahs unprecedented land invasion in Syria. Islamist rise impact on UAE-Egypt Monday, February 18, 2013

Israel has had two major conflicts with the Arab Legion of Jordan, in 1948-51 and again in 1967. In 1994, the two countries signed a definitive peace agreement, in which Jordan recognized the Jewish State of Israel and abdicated any land claims to the "West Bank" and Jerusalem. Egypt had done the same concerning Gaza in 1979.

Despite the claims of some radical Zionists, based on historical Jewish ownership and settlement of much of Jordan, the country is not part of the original Land of Canaan given to Israel at Mount Sinai; neither is any part of Jordan allotted to Israel in any end-time prophecies (Ezekiel explicitly excludes it). Concerning Egypt and Iraq, Isaiah 19 prophesies that in the end times they both will have not only peace with Israel, but a special relationship with God alongside Israel. Lebanon and Syria are a different matter; for nearly all of Lebanon and the southern part of Syria are both shown as part of the future Israel by Ezekiel (as well as having been part of the original Canaan). In the end times, when Iraq is at peace with Israel, Isaiah says there will be a road connecting Egypt with Iraq through Israel. Historically, such a road went through Syria, though a modern road exists through Jordan.

Zechariah prophesied, in ch. 14, that "all the nations of the world" would attack Israel in the final war. If one considers that this war began in 1948, then the countries of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Egypt have already done their part. There is no Biblical reason to expect any more conflicts between Israel and these nations. In fact, Ezekiel 38-39 predicts that in the end times Israel will become prosperous (and indeed, it is becoming more prosperous by the day, as oil and gas deposits open up in her); and that her main enemies will be Turkey, Iran, Sudan and Egypt.

I presented a map, a few posts ago, that showed the current state of international diplomatic and defense relationships. I apologize, in that it looks rather hodgepodge. I made a new map, shown below:

The map has the following color-coding:

Blue: The US and its diplomatic and military allies: Canada, Israel and some Pacific islands.

Red: Military allies of the US, who side half the time with the US in the UN, and half the time against it.

Purple: Turkey, which is in transition between "Red" and "Orange" designations

Green: Military allies of the US, who consistently vote against the US in the UN

Orange: Countries which consistently vote against the US, and are allied with both NATO and the SCO -- along with militarily dependent countries.

Yellow: Countries which consistently vote against the US, and are militarily allied with the SCO countries and their dependents. (SCO is the "Shanghai Cooperation Organization", started by Russia, China and some Central Asian countries).

The importance of the map concerning Israel, is:

1. Iran and Sudan are both in the SCO bloc, with which Turkey is a dialog partner. These, along with Libya (which is currently in a state of near-anarchy) form the Ezekiel 38 coalition.

2. Despite the end of the Cold War, the world is still divided into competing blocs, armed with nuclear arsenals aimed at one another. This accords with the culmination in a nuclear exchange inferred in Zech 14, among the nations attacking Israel in the last days.

3. The "Blue" and "Red" areas of the map are all NATO partners. Curiously, the "Red" areas coincide closely with Hitler's Rome-Berlin-Tokyo axis, plus remnants of the British Empire dominions. Together, the red areas almost certainly contain the "ten horns" of the "beast that came out of the sea" of Revelation; and the US may be the "little horn" mentioned by Daniel 7:8, that uproots three of the ten (possibly Italy, Germany and Japan) and becomes the foremost power on earth. Revelation 19 says that these will lead the final assault against Israel:

Rev 19
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

"Interpreter" denies that this will happen, ignoring the "Elephant in the living room", the US, which clearly fulfills its role in prophecy:

Rev 13
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I believe the gathering of the nations against Israel at "Armageddon" is simply the last campaign of the War against Israel. The Ezekiel 38 attack is probably part of this war; and it will certainly precede the final campaign by at least seven years (cf. Eze 39). Preceding that, is what we have already witnessed these past decades: war against Israel by her immediate neighbors.

Shalom shalom http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/58972-1

It's good that Israel and Jordan are getting on. Their relationship could be a model for other Arab nations whose relations with Israel are rather poor at the best of times.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

It's good that Israel and Jordan are getting on. Their relationship could be a model for other Arab nations whose relations with Israel are rather poor at the best of times.

You're ever the "optimist", Supreme. In practical terms, all Israel's enemies need to do is what Egypt and Jordan did: cease all belligerence, and recognize the Jewish state of Israel. Both terrorist leadership groups in the Arab Palestinian areas (Fatah and HAMAS) steadfastly refuse to do so; and even if they decided to, it would take decades to undo the hatred the PA educational system has instilled into its children for decades. I rate the chances of peace with those two as zero or less.

By the way, I strayed in my "mapping", to note how much Europe looked like a many-headed dragon. If I based my predictions on things like these, I would be in the same class as Interpreter, with his star charts and horses. Just to check my sanity, I looked up Draco ("the Dragon") in the star maps. It's this:

Image source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....djvu/page1-480px-ConstellationDraco.djvu.jpg
​

Without the lines to guide me, I would never connect the dots to come up with a dragon; yet the ancient astrologers seemed certain that's what they saw. The same would hold for maps and horses.

When I do make predictions, it is based on comparing scriptures with one another. On big bone of contention between Interpreter and me, is the role of the USA in the end times. I consider it to be the great, awesome power of the end times that no nation on earth dared to challenge in open combat. There is, and never has been since Roman times, a country with such absolute power as the US. The British Empire was challenged twice by Germany, and before that, by France. Before them, the Spanish were challenged by the French, etc. The US was challenged by the USSR, but always through surrogates; and in the end, it capitulated.

Another reason for believing the US would be among the nations that, in the end of the age, attacked Israel, is that Zech. 14 says ALL the nations would fight against Israel. The US, of course, is part of ALL nations; and since we haven't attacked Israel so far, our participation in this passage of scripture is in the future.

The most convincing proof, to me, of America's "villain" role, is the "little horn" prophecy of Daniel:

Dan 7
[7] After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
[8] I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
[9] I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
[10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Many other "little horns" have been proposed, none convincingly. Interpreter sees this horn as Hitler; but there are several obvious objections to this: First of all, Hitler died, and his death did not issue in the Messianic Millenium. Secondly, he never attacked Israel. Thirdly, he conquered many nations, but did not pluck any of them up by the roots: They all survived and returned to non-Nazi governments. Most, in fact, were never completely conquered: Central Africa remained loyal to the Free French; Belgian Congo remained loyal to King Leopold; the Dutch continued to rule in Suriname, the Danes (nominally) in Iceland and Greenland. Poland and Greece were decisively conquered, but continued as governments-in-exile. When the US and its allies conquered Germany, Italy and Japan, however, they deposed the leaders (except for Hirohito, who, even worse than being deposed, was forced to renounce his divinity), dissolved the governments, dismantled the ruling parties, and, after ruling them directly, have dealt with them to this day as puppet governments.

So much for "plucking". In addition to this, the US began as a little horn indeed, namely, tiny colonies in Massachusetts and Virginia; although other candidates have done this as well -- Italy, for instance, whose royal line originally ruled only in Savoy.

I'm frankly not enamored with the idea of Israel signing peace treaties with anyone -- especially with the Muslims, who consider such things as merely "hudnas", to be broken as soon as they become powerful enough. I look forward to the sort of peace that is brokered by an undeniable demonstration of God's eternal presence and power -- even if that peace, because of our inclination to wickedness, will only last 1,000 years. That will be enough time for the earth to heal itself from the many wounds we have inflicted on it; and after that, our rather tiresome task on this planet will be over.

Shalom shalom

 

[I Eat Pie]

Q'ran [Night Journey 17:100-104]

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."


Honestly, Even the Q'ran is in support of Israel and "zionism". But I guess present day Muslims don't care about the Q'ran. They just want to stomp their feet and shout and bring Sharia Law to everyone else. It's Anti-semitism, Jew Hatred. Probably one of the oldest forms of hate in the world, and it's still being carried on in the 21st century. How pathetic.


I honestly want someone on here to point to even one country in the middle east who treats Arabs as well as Israel does. Because from my knowledge, Israel even has Arabs in their sports teams and their GOVERNMENT. But do Arabs show the same level of respect towards Jews? I don't think so. Maybe Iran does, but Persians are not Arabs, and outside of Israel, Iran has one of the biggest Jewish populations in the world. Also, I think it was 7 armies not 6. Pretty sure Yemen was somewhere in there too.

But I honestly don't care about what these religious fanatics from both Islam and Christianity have to say with their stupid prophecies. As long as religion has something to do with it, there will NEVER be peace in the middle east, and Israel will keep having to deal with people who don't care for peace.


But putting that aside, let's look at it like this. Israel has been brought back to the world since 1948. Since then, they have modernized just like the rest of the West. From what I hear, they are already a leading country in science and technology, but I'll have to read up more about that to confirm it. But these countries surrounding it have been there for what, 2000+ years, and what have they been contributing? Almost nothing, because they're still stuck in religious mentality of covering women and praying 5 times a day(or however many times they do it). I don't understand why this useless United Nations is even there, if they don't even care for human rights. Missiles are constantly being shot into Israel, and the American government does NOTHING to stop it. They did set up a missile defense system for Israel years ago, but to stop a problem, you need to cut it from it's root. I do support the Palestinians, and I want peace for them. I hope they understand that the only way for them to prosper is to ditch the crazy religious government, and become secular and accept help from Israel.

Israel has the nuclear capacity to wipe out Gaza in 2 minutes if they wanted, but they're not that kind. But Gaza has no trouble shooting constant barrages into Israel. And when Israel shoots back one time, some how, they're the terrorists? Every single country on this Earth would defend itself from a foreign threat, and Israel should have the same right to do so.

I heard some prophecy or whatever that when the world turns against Israel, the Lord will return, or something like that. Yaaaa OOOOKKKK, then let's just have people continue getting killed so Jesus will return??? Umm... No thank you. If you guys were real Christians, you guys would support justice in the world, and ditch the prophecies. Israel is a true democracy, and as Americans, we should support it.

Israel did give Egypt a huge chunk of land to settle some disputes. Well returning land isn't changing anything. And reasoning won't help either, because when people are blinded by faith, it's not easy to reason with them. Like if you say "oh, you know, sex before marriage isn't such a bad thing", and they look at you and say "that is the devil speaking through you with lustful thoughts!". So reasoning doesn't work either. So what's next? Ok, just have more people die then?

"Hell is a place where there is no reason" - George Orwell



Though I'm happy for Egypt and Jordan for attempting to have better relations with Israel. I guess we can all agree that it's definitely a step forward.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Q'ran [Night Journey 17:100-104]

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning..."

Pie, you're more learned than I was at 19. I had read Orwell by then, but not Qur'an -- and certainly not much of the Bible. You said,

I honestly want someone on here to point to even one country in the middle east who treats Arabs as well as Israel does. Because from my knowledge, Israel even has Arabs in their sports teams and their GOVERNMENT. But do Arabs show the same level of respect towards Jews? I don't think so. Maybe Iran does, but Persians are not Arabs, and outside of Israel, Iran has one of the biggest Jewish populations in the world. Also, I think it was 7 armies not 6. Pretty sure Yemen was somewhere in there too.

You are correct, in that Israel treats its Arabs better than any other country in the ME. 11 of the 120 knesset members are from Arab parties, and some of those in the "Jewish" parties are also Arabs. That may be slightly less than their percentage of voters, but Israeli Arabs tend not to vote in large numbers. One of the High Court justices is also an Arab, so far as I know.

As for Iran, they no longer have a large Jewish population:

"The Jewish Encyclopedia estimated that in 1900 there were 35,000 Persian Jews in the world (almost all of whom lived in present-day Iran), although other sources estimate somewhat higher numbers for the same time. On the eve of Israel's independence in 1948, there were, by varying estimates, 100,000-150,000 Jews in Iran with relatively few Persian Jews residing outside the country. Today, there are an estimated 300,000–350,000 Jews of full or partial Persian ancestry living predominantly in Israel, with significant communities in the United States and Iran...

Iran's Jewish population was reduced from 100,000–150,000 in 1948 to about 80,000 immediately before the Iranian Revolution, due mostly to immigration to Israel. While immigration to Israel had slowed in the 1970s and the Jewish population of Iran had stabilized, the majority of Iran's remaining Jews left the country in the aftermath of the overthrow of the Shah. In recent years, the Jewish population of Iran was estimated by most sources to be 25,000, though estimates varied, with some as low as 17,000 and as high as 40,000. However, a census in August 2012 revealed that there were only 8,756 Jews still living in Iran..."

-- Persian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The countries with the largest Jewish population are:

1 Israel 5,703,700 42.5%
2 United States 5,275,000 39.3%
3 France 483,500 3.6%
4 Canada 375,000 2.8%
5 United Kingdom 292,000 2.2%

-- World Jewish Population (2010)

As for Yemen in the war against Israel,

"In 1947, when news of the Partition Plan reached Yemen, a wave of pogroms against the Jews erupted in Aden. A similar episode of persecution occurred in San'a, where Jews were accused of conspiracy to murder Muslims. In February 1948, Imam Yahya was assassinated and his successor, Imam Ahmad bin Yahya came to power. The new Imam called upon all Arabs to unite against the Zionist State. He made promises to provide Egypt assistance in the war against Israel, but his contributions were minor. After hearing about Arab defeat and the establishment of the State of Israel, the new Imam feared that the Israeli government might demand reparations for property left by Jews who immigrated to Israel, and therefore quickly allowed them to leave the country in a massive emigration enterprise known as "Operation Magic Carpet" in which nearly 50,000 Jews were flown safely out of Yemen"

-- Israel–Yemen relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You said,

But I honestly don't care about what these religious fanatics from both Islam and Christianity have to say with their stupid prophecies. As long as religion has something to do with it, there will NEVER be peace in the middle east, and Israel will keep having to deal with people who don't care for peace.

The Arabs and Jews in Israel/ Palestine actually do live in peace, more than the Arabs do with one another in neighboring countries. Just look at the statistics:

Syrian Civil War (2011-present); over 90,000 dead, with no end in sight
Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990): about 120,000 dead
Wars involving Israel (1948-present): 55,000 dead, all sides
Jordan September 1970 war with Fatah: up to 20,000 dead
Egypt-Yemen-Saudi War (1962-1970): 100,000-200,000 dead

Add to that the wars against and in Iraq, the recent bloodbath in Libya and the genocide in Sudan, and you have a generally bloody neighborhood, in which the Jews have very little to do with the killing that goes on. As for the wars involving Israel, about 20,000 of those killed were Egyptians, 7000 Jordanians and 11,000 Israelis. Those countries are now at peace with one another. The conflict between Arabs and Jews in Israel/ Palestine since the 1994 accords are not included in the numbers; but they are slight in comparison. Syrian losses against Israel have been about 10,000, and Iraqi about 7000. Losses by Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc. were unrecorded and probably slight.

When people talk about Israel somehow doing something that will bring about "peace" in the Middle East, they are essentially saying that they want Israel to make concessions in "peace" negotiations that the Arabs were unable to get on the battlefield. "Middle East Peace Process" is an oxymoron, which has little to do with the Jews.

I'd better stop there, before the system overloads. I loved your comments.

Shalom shalom

 

[I Eat Pie]

Pie, you're more learned than I was at 19. I had read Orwell by then, but not Qur'an -- and certainly not much of the Bible. You said,
You are correct, in that Israel treats its Arabs better than any other country in the ME. 11 of the 120 knesset members are from Arab parties, and some of those in the "Jewish" parties are also Arabs. That may be slightly less than their percentage of voters, but Israeli Arabs tend not to vote in large numbers. One of the High Court justices is also an Arab, so far as I know.

As for Iran, they no longer have a large Jewish population:

"The Jewish Encyclopedia estimated that in 1900 there were 35,000 Persian Jews in the world (almost all of whom lived in present-day Iran), although other sources estimate somewhat higher numbers for the same time. On the eve of Israel's independence in 1948, there were, by varying estimates, 100,000-150,000 Jews in Iran with relatively few Persian Jews residing outside the country. Today, there are an estimated 300,000–350,000 Jews of full or partial Persian ancestry living predominantly in Israel, with significant communities in the United States and Iran...

Iran's Jewish population was reduced from 100,000–150,000 in 1948 to about 80,000 immediately before the Iranian Revolution, due mostly to immigration to Israel. While immigration to Israel had slowed in the 1970s and the Jewish population of Iran had stabilized, the majority of Iran's remaining Jews left the country in the aftermath of the overthrow of the Shah. In recent years, the Jewish population of Iran was estimated by most sources to be 25,000, though estimates varied, with some as low as 17,000 and as high as 40,000. However, a census in August 2012 revealed that there were only 8,756 Jews still living in Iran..."

-- Persian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The countries with the largest Jewish population are:

1 Israel 5,703,700 42.5%
2 United States 5,275,000 39.3%
3 France 483,500 3.6%
4 Canada 375,000 2.8%
5 United Kingdom 292,000 2.2%

-- World Jewish Population (2010)

As for Yemen in the war against Israel,

"In 1947, when news of the Partition Plan reached Yemen, a wave of pogroms against the Jews erupted in Aden. A similar episode of persecution occurred in San'a, where Jews were accused of conspiracy to murder Muslims. In February 1948, Imam Yahya was assassinated and his successor, Imam Ahmad bin Yahya came to power. The new Imam called upon all Arabs to unite against the Zionist State. He made promises to provide Egypt assistance in the war against Israel, but his contributions were minor. After hearing about Arab defeat and the establishment of the State of Israel, the new Imam feared that the Israeli government might demand reparations for property left by Jews who immigrated to Israel, and therefore quickly allowed them to leave the country in a massive emigration enterprise known as "Operation Magic Carpet" in which nearly 50,000 Jews were flown safely out of Yemen"

-- Israel–Yemen relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You said,

The Arabs and Jews in Israel/ Palestine actually do live in peace, more than the Arabs do with one another in neighboring countries. Just look at the statistics:

Syrian Civil War (2011-present); over 90,000 dead, with no end in sight
Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990): about 120,000 dead
Wars involving Israel (1948-present): 55,000 dead, all sides
Jordan September 1970 war with Fatah: up to 20,000 dead
Egypt-Yemen-Saudi War (1962-1970): 100,000-200,000 dead

Add to that the wars against and in Iraq, the recent bloodbath in Libya and the genocide in Sudan, and you have a generally bloody neighborhood, in which the Jews have very little to do with the killing that goes on. As for the wars involving Israel, about 20,000 of those killed were Egyptians, 7000 Jordanians and 11,000 Israelis. Those countries are now at peace with one another. The conflict between Arabs and Jews in Israel/ Palestine since the 1994 accords are not included in the numbers; but they are slight in comparison. Syrian losses against Israel have been about 10,000, and Iraqi about 7000. Losses by Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc. were unrecorded and probably slight.

When people talk about Israel somehow doing something that will bring about "peace" in the Middle East, they are essentially saying that they want Israel to make concessions in "peace" negotiations that the Arabs were unable to get on the battlefield. "Middle East Peace Process" is an oxymoron, which has little to do with the Jews.

I'd better stop there, before the system overloads. I loved your comments.

Shalom shalom

Hah no problem xD. It's not the ideal way for a 19 year old to spend free time, but I do enjoy learning news, hoping that I can one day make a difference. Are there really any countries who have a serious problem with Israel now? Besides for the Palestinians.

And george Orwell is great. We read Animal Farm in 10th grade and I loved it =].

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Hah no problem xD. It's not the ideal way for a 19 year old to spend free time, but I do enjoy learning news, hoping that I can one day make a difference. Are there really any countries who have a serious problem with Israel now? Besides for the Palestinians.

And george Orwell is great. We read Animal Farm in 10th grade and I loved it =].

I don't know of anyone who actually has problems with them. They are known as the country with the most startup companies per capita, particularly in the high tech sector. Before they made Gaza free of Jews after ethnically cleansing 10,000 of their own people, they had a tremendous greenhouse vegetable business going there. They export fruits and vegetables to Europe, though many countries boycott them for political reasons. When they occupied Sinai after the 1967 War, they discovered and developed oil deposits there, which they left to the Egyptians; they also left the Egyptians a massive, state-of-the-art air base. In 1970, they helped King Hussein of Jordan put down a rebellion against him by terrorists (backed by Syria). They have opened up their hospitals to anyone in need, including those wounded in the current Syrian Arab-on-Arab fighting, as well Arabs from Gaza. They are sought out by countries of the Free World, to provide training in counter-terrorism and urban warfare. In natural disasters, such as the devastating earthquake in Haiti, they are usually the first responders. For Palestinan Arab President Mahmoud Abbas, the Israelis are providing a security shield against his HAMAS enemies in the Gaza strip. Terrorists held in Israeli jails, moreover, enjoy excellent circumstances, including college educations, before they are released in lopsided prisoner exchanges (hundreds of convicted terrorists exchanged for a couple of dead Israeli bodies, in one instance).

On the down side, countries whose Jewish populations migrated in large numbers to Israel, such as Morocco, Iraq, Romania, Poland, the Ukraine and Russia, lost some of their brightest, most productive citizens.

The Jewish people have gone through over 1900 years of being blamed for society's ills. They have been expelled, at times, from England, France, Spain, Germany and many other countries, generally having all their goods confiscated. The expulsion the Palestinian Arabs have in mind for them from Israel is not fundamentally different from any expulsion in the past.

The greatest benefit Israel seems to contribute to the world in these last days, is that hatred of Israel is about the only thing that brings together nearly all the nations of the world. In that sense, they are a vehicle for "world peace".

 

[Supreme]

Pie, you're more learned than I was at 19. I had read Orwell by then, but not Qur'an -- and certainly not much of the Bible. You said,
You are correct, in that Israel treats its Arabs better than any other country in the ME. 11 of the 120 knesset members are from Arab parties, and some of those in the "Jewish" parties are also Arabs. That may be slightly less than their percentage of voters, but Israeli Arabs tend not to vote in large numbers. One of the High Court justices is also an Arab, so far as I know.

As for Iran, they no longer have a large Jewish population:

"The Jewish Encyclopedia estimated that in 1900 there were 35,000 Persian Jews in the world (almost all of whom lived in present-day Iran), although other sources estimate somewhat higher numbers for the same time. On the eve of Israel's independence in 1948, there were, by varying estimates, 100,000-150,000 Jews in Iran with relatively few Persian Jews residing outside the country. Today, there are an estimated 300,000–350,000 Jews of full or partial Persian ancestry living predominantly in Israel, with significant communities in the United States and Iran...

Iran's Jewish population was reduced from 100,000–150,000 in 1948 to about 80,000 immediately before the Iranian Revolution, due mostly to immigration to Israel. While immigration to Israel had slowed in the 1970s and the Jewish population of Iran had stabilized, the majority of Iran's remaining Jews left the country in the aftermath of the overthrow of the Shah. In recent years, the Jewish population of Iran was estimated by most sources to be 25,000, though estimates varied, with some as low as 17,000 and as high as 40,000. However, a census in August 2012 revealed that there were only 8,756 Jews still living in Iran..."

-- Persian Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The countries with the largest Jewish population are:

1 Israel 5,703,700 42.5%
2 United States 5,275,000 39.3%
3 France 483,500 3.6%
4 Canada 375,000 2.8%
5 United Kingdom 292,000 2.2%

-- World Jewish Population (2010)

As for Yemen in the war against Israel,

"In 1947, when news of the Partition Plan reached Yemen, a wave of pogroms against the Jews erupted in Aden. A similar episode of persecution occurred in San'a, where Jews were accused of conspiracy to murder Muslims. In February 1948, Imam Yahya was assassinated and his successor, Imam Ahmad bin Yahya came to power. The new Imam called upon all Arabs to unite against the Zionist State. He made promises to provide Egypt assistance in the war against Israel, but his contributions were minor. After hearing about Arab defeat and the establishment of the State of Israel, the new Imam feared that the Israeli government might demand reparations for property left by Jews who immigrated to Israel, and therefore quickly allowed them to leave the country in a massive emigration enterprise known as "Operation Magic Carpet" in which nearly 50,000 Jews were flown safely out of Yemen"

-- Israel–Yemen relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You said,

The Arabs and Jews in Israel/ Palestine actually do live in peace, more than the Arabs do with one another in neighboring countries. Just look at the statistics:

Syrian Civil War (2011-present); over 90,000 dead, with no end in sight
Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990): about 120,000 dead
Wars involving Israel (1948-present): 55,000 dead, all sides
Jordan September 1970 war with Fatah: up to 20,000 dead
Egypt-Yemen-Saudi War (1962-1970): 100,000-200,000 dead

Add to that the wars against and in Iraq, the recent bloodbath in Libya and the genocide in Sudan, and you have a generally bloody neighborhood, in which the Jews have very little to do with the killing that goes on. As for the wars involving Israel, about 20,000 of those killed were Egyptians, 7000 Jordanians and 11,000 Israelis. Those countries are now at peace with one another. The conflict between Arabs and Jews in Israel/ Palestine since the 1994 accords are not included in the numbers; but they are slight in comparison. Syrian losses against Israel have been about 10,000, and Iraqi about 7000. Losses by Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc. were unrecorded and probably slight.

When people talk about Israel somehow doing something that will bring about "peace" in the Middle East, they are essentially saying that they want Israel to make concessions in "peace" negotiations that the Arabs were unable to get on the battlefield. "Middle East Peace Process" is an oxymoron, which has little to do with the Jews.

I'd better stop there, before the system overloads. I loved your comments.

Shalom shalom

Iranian Jews do have relative freedom in Iran, however. They certainly aren't persecuted to the same extent as, say, the Bahai community is.