The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

[Der Alte]

Wrong, both times! I did not use the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] for the definition of hell. I don't think that I have ever quoted the JE hell article in this forum.

No I do not! I have [sic not] quoted the JE Gehenna article more than once.

James 1:26 (KJV) If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Can't make your argument with scripture and other evidence so you resort to misrepresenting what I said and trying to insult me with scripture? Must be pretty desperate. Here is what I actually said.

Wrong, both times! I did not use the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] for the definition of hell. I don't think that I have ever quoted the JE hell article in this forum.

No I do not! I have quoted the JE Gehenna article more than once.

 

[he-man]

Can't make your argument with scripture and other evidence so you resort to misrepresenting what I said and trying to insult me with scripture? Must be pretty desperate. Here is what I actually said.Originally Posted by Der Alter

Wrong, both times! I did not use the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] for the definition of hell. I don't think that I have ever quoted the JE hell article in this forum. Originally Posted by Der Alter

Post #849. . . When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). . . .
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Post #534 Does all this have a purpose? While these views are somewhat interesting, if one wants to know what the Jews believed about Hell, consult Jewish sources. As you can see, contrary to your sources, the ancient Jews did believe in hell and they called it both sheol and Gehenna. Scripture highlighted in blue.
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Post #135 Jewish Encyclopedia – Satan
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Originally Posted by Der Alter

Post #247 This reflects how many, not all, modern orthodox Jews interpret the posted scripture, but it does not address how the Jews at the time of Jesus interpreted them. For that one must consult historical writings such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud, Mishna, ETC. all available online.
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Post #118 When you go to a website that does not believe in hell, you will find only information which supports that view. The ancient Jews believed in a place of unending conscious punishment and they called it both Sheol and Gehenna.
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau
​

​

:o Matthew 10:14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
​

 

[fireof god98]

If the soul does not die, why does Ezekiel 18:4 say "the soul who sins shall die"? And why does Jesus tell us to be afraid of the one who can destroy the soul in Gehenna in Matthew 10:28? Where does the Bible say that the souls of the wicked last forever and ever? And if the wicked last forever and ever, why does the Bible say that the wicked shall be no more? (Psalm 37:10)

We have two choices, eternal life in Christ or no eternal life if we reject Christ. The condition of not having life is called "death". Not having eternal life does not mean having eternal life in Hell being tortured.

And this is what the Bible says. Just consider what the Bible says instead of the unbiblical tradition of eternal torture in Hell.

where is the justice in like then? Adolf Hitler gets off scot free plus the thousands of other killers that throws of balance.

The Biblical Hell is very easy to recognize. "Worms never die", " fire never quench", " the fallen angels are in chains in darkness" basically it is a prison for sinners and fallen angles preserve for the Great judgment day*. And then the Lake of Fire. Which is the second death. Hell and Hades will also be thrown to the lake of fire!?. It's too late for those who died in their sins without Christ. But never too late for anybody who is still breathing. repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[fireof god98]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) offers the following explanation:

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves . . . To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." (CCC 1033)
​

This definition presumes what Christians—indeed, most anyone who believes in the lord—agree on: that the true life and happiness for which we were created can be found only in the lords presence. Separation from the lord means the loss of that life and happiness and thus results in suffering. This is one reason why hell is always depicted as a place of torment

 

[fireof god98]

evidence shows that at least some Jews believed in an eternal afterlife which was good for some, bad for others. For example, Daniel records, "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2).
The Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades were often used by the Jews to refer in general to "the abode of the dead." These words are sometimes loosely translated into English as "hell" (e.g., in the King James Version of the Bible), however, in these instances, the word may refer to either the abode of the damned or the abode of the just, or it may broadly refer to both. Similarly, the Greek words Phulake and Paradaiso may be translated as "hell."
Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus helps us to understand this better as it gives us insight into the afterlife as it was understood in Jesus’ time. From this parable it seems that all who died prior to Jesus’ Resurrection went to "hell" (Hades); however, the just went to a particular part of hell referred to as "Abraham’s bosom" where they would be comforted until the gates of heaven were opened while the damned went to a place of torment. A great chasm separated these two parts of hell and no one in either part was in heaven.

 

[Timothew]

where is the justice in like then? Adolf Hitler gets off scot free plus the thousands of other killers that throws of balance.

You can't be seriously suggesting that Hitler being exterminated and turned into ash means that he "gets off scot free". Please tell me that this was argumentative rhetoric and not what you really think. It is not "getting off scot free" to be consumed by fire. If you think it is, then you have larger issues.

The Biblical Hell is very easy to recognize.

A Hell of Eternal Torment where the wicked go when they die to be tortured alive forever is not described in the Bible.

"Worms never die", " fire never quench",

Obviously references Isaiah 66:24
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Notice that this refers to dead bodies, not living dead souls.

" the fallen angels are in chains in darkness" basically it is a prison for sinners and fallen angles preserve for the Great judgment day*.

This says fallen angels, not humans.

And then the Lake of Fire. Which is the second death.

And then the Lake of Fire. Which is the second DEATH, not eternal conscious torment. The Lake of Fire is the second death. This is what I am saying. The lost will perish after they have been resurrected for judgment. Since it will have been the SECOND TIME they died, it is called the SECOND DEATH.

Hell and Hades will also be thrown to the lake of fire!?.

The Book of Revelation says that Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death, so Hades will be destroyed as well. This doesn't say, prove, or even imply that the lost will be given eternal life so that they can be tortured alive for all eternity while they are dead.

It's too late for those who died in their sins without Christ. But never too late for anybody who is still breathing. repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

And on this point, you and I agree. I believe that it is too late for someone to repent once they have died. But you and I disagree on what happens to them after death. According to the Bible, they will be resurrected for judgment and then they will finally perish and be no more. That is what I believe. There is no support for the notion that they will be given the gift of eternal life after they die, so that they can experience torture forever.

 

[Timothew]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) offers the following explanation:

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves . . . To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." (CCC 1033)
​

This definition presumes what Christians—indeed, most anyone who believes in the lord—agree on: that the true life and happiness for which we were created can be found only in the lords presence. Separation from the lord means the loss of that life and happiness and thus results in suffering. This is one reason why hell is always depicted as a place of torment

I agree that Catholics are required to believe whatever the Catholic Church teaches. Since the Reformation and Sola Scriptura, the rest of us are free to believe what the Bible teaches. If you disagree with me, disagree on the basis of the Bible, and we can discuss it. I am not required to believe Catholic teaching.

 

[he-man]

where is the justice in like then? Adolf Hitler gets off scot free plus the thousands of other killers that throws of balance.

Justice? You must mean like never to see God or never to see an eternal life. Are you some kind of sadistic prosecutor who enjoys seeing others in pain? I am under the impression that God is the prosecutor and that all vengeance belongs to Him.

Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And then the Lake of Fire. Which is the second death.

That in your own quote is a misnomer because to die the second time indicates that person is to be annihilated, ie; destroyed, demolished; exterminated

 

[Timothew]

Justice? You must mean like never to see God or never to see an eternal life. Are you some kind of sadistic prosecutor who enjoys seeing others in pain? I am under the impression that God is the prosecutor and that all vengeance belongs to Him.

Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; That in your own quote is a misnomer because to die the second time indicates that person is to be annihilated, ie; destroyed, demolished; exterminated

I know, right?

Two men rob two different banks. The police catch both robbers.
Both stand trial. One is set free, the other is executed. According to this guy (Fireof), BOTH got off scot free. Do these people ever think before they post?

 

[Der Alte]

evidence shows that at least some Jews believed in an eternal afterlife which was good for some, bad for others. For example, Daniel records, "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

The Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades were often used by the Jews to refer in general to "the abode of the dead." These words are sometimes loosely translated into English as "hell" (e.g., in the King James Version of the Bible), however, in these instances, the word may refer to either the abode of the damned or the abode of the just, or it may broadly refer to both. Similarly, the Greek words Phulake and Paradaiso may be translated as "hell."

Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus helps us to understand this better as it gives us insight into the afterlife as it was understood in Jesus’ time. From this parable it seems that all who died prior to Jesus’ Resurrection went to "hell" (Hades); however, the just went to a particular part of hell referred to as "Abraham’s bosom" where they would be comforted until the gates of heaven were opened while the damned went to a place of torment. A great chasm separated these two parts of hell and no one in either part was in heaven.

Here is some evidence, from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, which supports your post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].

Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.

Jewish Virtuallibrary.org ​

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Where is the logic in thinking people would care one hoot that worm eating their dead corpse is going to live forever or a fire roasting their dead body never stops burning?

I cannot even begin to think why that should matter to someone considering their fate if such language was meant to be understood that the individual belonging to that body has already ceased to be. If someone is gone, as some likes to say, they are gone. So why would an eternal worm and fire matter to someone that will be gone?

 

[Der Alte]

Where is the logic in thinking people would care one hoot that worm eating their dead corpse is going to live forever or a fire roasting their dead body never stops burning?

I cannot even begin to think why that should matter to someone considering their fate if such language was meant to be understood that the individual belonging to that body has already ceased to be. If someone is gone, as some likes to say, they are gone. So why would an eternal worm and fire matter to someone that will be gone?

I have been asking the same question for years and have never heard a satisfactory answer.

 

[fireof god98]

Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades, Phulake, and Paradaiso, which are sometimes translated as "hell," the Greek words Gehenna and Tartarosas —also translated as "hell"—mean strictly "the abode of the damned." Of the thirteen times the word "hell" is mentioned in the Bible, twelve of these are translated from Gehenna. Eleven of these instances are quotations from Jesus himself.
Jesus taught about the possibility of damnation in no uncertain terms:

• You have heard that it was said to the men of old, "You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment." But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, "You fool!" shall be liable to the hell of fire. (Matt. 5:21-22)
• And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28; see also Luke 12:5)
• Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. (Matt. 23:15)
• Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, "If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets." Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (Matt. 23:29-33)

Clearly, Jesus warned his followers that hell was very real. He also taught them that hell was forever:

f your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48; see also Matt. 5:29-30; 18:8-9)
​

The New Testament includes two other uses of the word hell. James mentions hell (Gehenna) when warning of the destruction our words can cause: "The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell" (Jas. 3:6).
And finally, Peter calls God’s punishment of the fallen angels hell (Tartarus): "f God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell . . ." (2 Pet. 2:4).

 

[fireof god98]

I know, right?

Two men rob two different banks. The police catch both robbers.
Both stand trial. One is set free, the other is executed. According to this guy (Fireof), BOTH got off scot free. Do these people ever think before they post?

no its just I believe the bible and what it Cleary says I don't try to make Christianity more loving than it is because that is not the truth

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, I have always felt logic is aborted over what feels right or feels better and then scripture made to fit.
And then if it does not have to make sense, just feels better then all one needs to do is not think about it and just repeat the arrived at undertanding of scripture which fits the feeling. Which also explains the inability to explain how it makes any sense.

The idea of ceasing to be twice strikes me as most odd. Since it happens to everyone one would think it should not be dreaded at all, especially after having done it once already. But am told the dread comes from realizing there is no coming back the second time. I then think again how hard/dreadful could that be after already experiencing it once?

Never mind that I am not really sure how the second me could be seen as the same me that experienced this life. Am told God could use every molecule of the former me (hopefully not all the dead cells shed over the years or none of my clothes would fit) and also give the second me my memory from this life. Certainly God is capable of doing that. Why He would bother re-creating me to then uncreate me again troubles me too.
How that is not seen as a clone of me escapes me, but I suppose if no one tells him he is a clone, and not really the me that lived the life he is being judged for then he would be none the wiser as he would believe himself to have experienced this life. How that could be considered Justice I am real fuzzy on as well.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, I have always felt logic is aborted over what feels right or feels better and then scripture made to fit.
And then if it does not have to make sense, just feels better then all one needs to do is not think about it and just repeat the arrived at undertanding of scripture which fits the feeling. Which also explains the inability to explain how it makes any sense.

The idea of ceasing to be twice strikes me as most odd. Since it happens to everyone one would think it should not be dreaded at all, especially after having done it once already. But am told the dread comes from realizing there is no coming back the second time. I then think again how hard/dreadful could that be after already experiencing it once?

Never mind that I am not really sure how the second me could be seen as the same me that experienced this life. Am told God could use every molecule of the former me (hopefully not all the dead cells shed over the years or none of my clothes would fit) and also give the second me my memory from this life. Certainly God is capable of doing that. Why He would bother re-creating me to then uncreate me again troubles me too.
How that is not seen as a clone of me escapes me, but I suppose if no one tells him he is a clone, and not really the me that lived the life he is being judged for then he would be none the wiser as he would believe himself to have experienced this life. How that could be considered Justice I am real fuzzy on as well.

To add to the dilemma.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Death is the point in time cessation of life. It has no physical properties and cannot actually be thrown anywhere. Death is/was not a living being therefore it cannot die. There is no record of "death" dying a first time thus it cannot die a second time.

"Hades" can either be "Hell" or the "grave." Either way it is a place. It is not a living being it cannot die. There is no record of it dying a first time, therefore it cannot die a second time. Unless this is referring to,

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of Death, first encountered in Exodus, and the demon/angel of Hell are living beings they can be thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

 

[Timothew]

Where is the logic in thinking people would care one hoot that worm eating their dead corpse is going to live forever or a fire roasting their dead body never stops burning?

I cannot even begin to think why that should matter to someone considering their fate if such language was meant to be understood that the individual belonging to that body has already ceased to be. If someone is gone, as some likes to say, they are gone. So why would an eternal worm and fire matter to someone that will be gone?

It is simply what the Bible says. If you don't care about that, so what?

From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

It's what the Lord says. It should matter to you. I'm tired. If what the Lord says doesn't matter to you, if the only thing that makes you walk straight is the threat of of being burnt alive, then you have got issues. I know that you have issues because you say "Even though the Lord says that it is the dead bodies that burn up, that isn't enough to matter to anyone."

You don't get it, do you? Having eternal life with God is everything. Not having eternal life with God is losing everything. Losing out on life, an eternity with God, losing everything. And you simply don't care, because that isn't horrible enough for you. I'm tired. You have no idea what the Bible says. It doesn't matter to you anyway. The only thing that seems to matter to you is that somebody gets burned alive forever. It's sad. I'm tired. I'm feeling a little sick to my stomach right now. Because of you.

 

[Timothew]

no its just I believe the bible and what it Cleary says I don't try to make Christianity more loving than it is because that is not the truth

Really?
You think the Bible says that being burnt to ashes is "getting off scot-free"?

Chapter and Verse, please.

 

[Timothew]

where is the justice in like then? Adolf Hitler gets off scot free plus the thousands of other killers that throws of balance.

Fireof thinks that being reduced to ash is the same thing as getting off scot-free.

 

[Timothew]

James 1:15-16
Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
According to the Bible sin brings forth death, not eternal torture in Hell.