The vision of radical muslims -- Mahdi

caerlerion

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Is there such a thing as a radical muslim? Sounds more like true believers and the rest are watered down apostates.
If we're fine with Jewish "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Torah-given command to kill Sabbath-breakers in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...

And we're fine with Christian "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Jesus-given command to cut of our hands in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...

But we claim Muslims who say we need to read and apply some part of the Quran in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation are not "true believers" but "watered down apostates"...

That's hypocrisy and bigotry.

Maybe the tiny minority of Muslims who are terrorists are the "apostates", just like the tiny-but-growing minority of Christians who are white supremacists are "apostates".
 
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section9+1

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If we're fine with Jewish "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Torah-given command to kill Sabbath-breakers in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...

And we're fine with Christian "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Jesus-given command to cut of our hands in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...

But we claim Muslims who say we need to read and apply some part of the Quran in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation are not "true believers" but "watered down apostates"...

That's hypocrisy and bigotry.

Maybe the tiny minority of Muslims who are terrorists are the "apostates", just like the tiny-but-growing minority of Christians who are white supremacists are "apostates".
Awww
 
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Rajni

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If we're fine with Jewish "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Torah-given command to kill Sabbath-breakers in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...

And we're fine with Christian "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Jesus-given command to cut of our hands in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...

But we claim Muslims who say we need to read and apply some part of the Quran in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation are not "true believers" but "watered down apostates"...

That's hypocrisy and bigotry.

Maybe the tiny minority of Muslims who are terrorists are the "apostates", just like the tiny-but-growing minority of Christians who are white supremacists are "apostates".
Well said.
 
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Chesterton

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And we're fine with Christian "true believers" saying we need to read and apply the Jesus-given command to cut of our hands in a certain way that minimizes violence and condemnation...
Which church says this?
 
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caerlerion

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Which church says this?
I'd guess about... literally all of them.

I don't know of a single church or denomination which says Jesus taught us to actually cut off our own hands or gouge out our eyes when they cause us to sin.

We give them all the benefit of the doubt that they are "true believers" when they claim, "It's metaphorical." We don't call them "watered down apostates" for minimizing the violence and condemnation in that thing Jesus said.
 
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Chesterton

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I'd guess about... literally all of them.

I don't know of a single church or denomination which says Jesus taught us to actually cut off our own hands or gouge out our eyes when they cause us to sin.

We give them all the benefit of the doubt that they are "true believers" when they claim, "It's metaphorical." We don't call them "watered down apostates" for minimizing the violence and condemnation in that thing Jesus said.
They all do and they all don't? That's about as clear as mud is what that's about as clear as.
 
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caerlerion

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I said: Christians interpret what Jesus said in a way that minimizes violence. (i.e. Christians say it's only metaphorical when Jesus said to cut off our hands.)

You asked: Which churches say this? (i.e. Which churches say it's only metaphorical when Jesus said to cut off our hands.)

I said: All of them. I know of no church which doesn't interpret what Jesus said in a way that minimizes violence. (i.e. Every church says it's only metaphorical when Jesus said to cut off our hands.)

Which part is unclear?
 
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ViaCrucis

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How about we let people who practice their religion tell us what it is they believe instead of telling them what they "actually" believe?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Zoness

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How about we let people who practice their religion tell us what it is they believe instead of telling them what they "actually" believe?

-CryptoLutheran

But that wouldn't be in the spirit of CF :D
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'd guess about... literally all of them.

I don't know of a single church or denomination which says Jesus taught us to actually cut off our own hands or gouge out our eyes when they cause us to sin.

We give them all the benefit of the doubt that they are "true believers" when they claim, "It's metaphorical." We don't call them "watered down apostates" for minimizing the violence and condemnation in that thing Jesus said.
Skopsty, a Russian sect, used to castrate themselves, and there is a dubious story that Origen did too.

However, from context it is clear this is metaphorical, as Jesus only says the right hand and eye - if an actual command, the other eye or hand would be sufficient to continue sinning, so would need to go too. So anyone who says we must actually do so, is clearly not reading the Bible, the equivalent of people that think Moses had horns because the Vulgate seems to say so.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Skopsty, a Russian sect, used to castrate themselves, and there is a dubious story that Origen did too.

However, from context it is clear this is metaphorical, as Jesus only says the right hand and eye - if an actual command, the other eye or hand would be sufficient to continue sinning, so would need to go too. So anyone who says we must actually do so, is clearly not reading the Bible, the equivalent of people that think Moses had horns because the Vulgate seems to say so.

In the Bible the "left" signifies judgement. And the right often means authority.

This passage seen in this manner Jesus is telling you to judge yourself to avoid HIS judgment, and cut off/cast away any authority that causes you to sin.

Its in 1 Corinthians 11:28-31, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Lamentations 3:40

Let us examine and probe our ways, And let us return to the LORD.

it's just a more impactful way of saying it. When your used to hearing repent repent repent, your ears get dulled to the sound. This imagery which says the same has a greater impact..

Jesus has an impact overall because He taught things the people already knew, but in a way and with an authority no one else had ever spoken with. This is a prime example of that.

To people falling asleep He is saying wake up, this is important.
 
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Joyousperson

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The effective approach is we should not focus on Muslims, radical [secondary] or otherwise but rather we need to focus primarily in the ideology of Islam itself.
Note this; Do Not Bash Muslims

The ideology of Islam is represented by the 6236 verses in the Quran and supported by the Ahadith [secondary].
3400++ or >55% of the 6236 verses contain anti-Muslims sentiments in contemptuous, antagonistic modes of various degrees.
A certain significant percentile of these evil laden verses exhort all Muslims to war-against and kill non-Muslims [especially Jew and Christians] upon very vague conditions of threat against Islam [even drawing of cartoons!!]

Muhammad hated the Jews and Christians because they changed or erased the prophecy of Muhammad as messiah in their holy texts [Torah and Injeel] thus differ from the original sent by Allah [Islamic God].

In addition, the Jews and Christian rejected his preaching and so Muhammad warned of the following; [here 2 of the many verses]

9:34. O ye [Muslims], who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis [HBR: l-aḥbāri] and the (Christian) monks [wal-ruh'bāni] devour the wealth [MWL: amwāla] of mankind wantonly [bil-bāṭili] and debar [wayaṣuddūna] (men) from the way of Allah. .... ...

2:120. And the Jews will not be pleased with thee [O Muhammad], nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed [MLL; millat -millatahum]. ...​

As for Muslims the majority [say 80%] are not inclined to adopt all the commands of Allah in the Quran due to ignorance and various reasons.

However there are a % [say 20% conservatively, polls indicated more] who are inclined to obey the commands of Allah in the Quran to be assured of a place in paradise with eternal life. That would be a pool of 320 million potential evil prone Muslims.

All the terrible evil and violent acts committed by Islamists are from this pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims to please Allah.

Re the Madhi, that is not mentioned in the Quran. Some will produce vague verses to justify it but these verses are taken out of context [e.g. 32:25]. Per the Quran, Muhammad is the last final prophet and the Quran is perfected thus immutable and nothing else can change it.
The Madihi is more of a Shias' [6% of Muslims - mostly in Iran and Iraq] view from the Ahadith which is secondary. No doubt some of these Muslims will accept the idea of the Madhi and commit evil and violent acts upon such an idea. However there is no warrant for it from the Quran - the core authority of Islam.

Our critique should be on the ideology of Islam, i.e. the Quran should be seriously critiqued and its faults exposed and corrective actions taken.
 
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