The vials in relation to the trumpets.

[DavidPT]

Should we assume trumpet 1 sounds first, which also parallels the events of the 1st vial, trumpet 2 sounds next, which also parallels the events of the 2nd vial, so on and so on? Or should we assume all 7 trumpets occur first, followed by the 7 vials following the 7th trumpet? Or should we maybe assume something else altogether?

Before we assume anything, IMO we at least need to consider the following first, and then maybe form a conclusion based on this.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Verse 2 is obviously connected with Rev 13 for one.

Until a beast first rises up out of the sea, and that one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed, followed by another beast coming up out of the earth, and then making an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live, the first vial in Rev 16 couldn't possibly precede any of these events in Rev 13. That has to be fulfilled first, then the world has to worship this beast, followed by the first vial eventually getting poured out upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

What we need to determine next, what trumpet or trumpets should we assume the events of Rev 13 start with and conclude with? In order for the first vial to parallel the events of the first trumpet, one would have to place the time of Rev 13 prior to that of the first trumpet. Yet, we see in Rev 11, that it is during the 6th trumpet when the 2 witnesses are giving their testimony. And that the beast in Rev 13 is yet to make war with them, overcome them, and kill them. That doesn't take place until after they have finished their testimony. Therefore, to place the events of Rev 13 prior to the sounding of the first trumpet, don't see that working.

Thusfar then, it seems to me that the first trumpet and first vial can't be parallel, and the same for trumpet 2 and vial 2, so on and so on. Should we then assume the 7 vials follow the 7th trumpet? Or should we assume something else altogether

 

[ewq1938]

Should we assume trumpet 1 sounds first, which also parallels the events of the 1st vial, trumpet 2 sounds next, which also parallels the events of the 2nd vial, so on and so on? Or should we assume all 7 trumpets occur first, followed by the 7 vials following the 7th trumpet? Or should we maybe assume something else altogether?

Before we assume anything, IMO we at least need to consider the following first, and then maybe form a conclusion based on this.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Verse 2 is obviously connected with Rev 13 for one.

Until a beast first rises up out of the sea, and that one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed, followed by another beast coming up out of the earth, and then making an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live, the first vial in Rev 16 couldn't possibly precede any of these events in Rev 13. That has to be fulfilled first, then the world has to worship this beast, followed by the first vial eventually getting poured out upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

What we need to determine next, what trumpet or trumpets should we assume the events of Rev 13 start with and conclude with? In order for the first vial to parallel the events of the first trumpet, one would have to place the time of Rev 13 prior to that of the first trumpet. Yet, we see in Rev 11, that it is during the 6th trumpet when the 2 witnesses are giving their testimony. And that the beast in Rev 13 is yet to make war with them, overcome them, and kill them. That doesn't take place until after they have finished their testimony. Therefore, to place the events of Rev 13 prior to the sounding of the first trumpet, don't see that working.

Thusfar then, it seems to me that the first trumpet and first vial can't be parallel, and the same for trumpet 2 and vial 2, so on and so on. Should we then assume the 7 vials follow the 7th trumpet? Or should we assume something else altogether

Correct. The theory that the first of all three things happen at the same time and so on down to the 7th of each is a simplistic and obviously errant view and what you point out is the easiest way to disprove it.

All seals are opened before any trumps are even handed out according to Rev. Then all trumps sound before any vials are poured.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[DavidPT]

All seals are opened before any trumps are even handed out according to Rev. Then all trumps sound before any vials are poured.

While this may be true, that doesn't mean all the events in the seals precede all of the events in the trumpets. The following easily proves my point IMO.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Compare to Revelation ch 13 for instance. Is anyone depicted as hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? No. That has to mean that the events in Rev 13 have to precede the events depicted in the 6th seal, such as them hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. It doesn't matter if that's meaning literal or nor, what matters is, none of these things are depicted as taking place during the time of Rev 13. If we place the events of the 6th seal prior to the events of Rev 13, we then have to come up with the verses that show these come out of hiding at some point, in order to fulfill Rev 13. Don't think those verses can be found though.

Perhaps you agree with me here, I don't know. In the event you do, maybe what I submitted here wasn't for nothing, maybe it might help someone else to see that just because the seals are apparently opened first, this doesn't mean all of the events in the seals precede the events of the trumpets. As to the vials in relation to the trumpets, well you already know my take on that, and that it appears we are in agreement about that.

 

[Another Lazarus]

Yet, we see in Rev 11, that it is during the 6th trumpet when the 2 witnesses are giving their testimony.

The 2 witnesses shall be killed after 3.5 years of testimony by the beast from bottomless pit.

The beast from bottomless pit shall be released by the 5th Trumpet :
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon.....

The beast from bottomless pit then kill the 2 Witnesses after being released.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

So the 5th Trumpet shall sound at 1260 days or 3.5 years

 

[ewq1938]

While this may be true, that doesn't mean all the events in the seals precede all of the events in the trumpets.

The seals have no events of their own. All they do is give us a preview of things that happen in the trumps which is why we see Christ returning in the 6th seal yet not returning until the 7th trump. The reason for the dif is simply because the 6th seal shows us some events of the 7th trump. Each seal will show something from one of the trumps. The seals are not opened in chronological order of events. It's quite clever and forces one to be very familiar with the various events and when they happen

 

[Choose Wisely]

The seals have no events of their own. All they do is give us a preview of things that happen in the trumps which is why we see Christ returning in the 6th seal yet not returning until the 7th trump. The reason for the dif is simply because the 6th seal shows us some events of the 7th trump. Each seal will show something from one of the trumps. The seals are not opened in chronological order of events. It's quite clever and forces one to be very familiar with the various events and when they happen

Hi supervisor..........Your comment is totally and completely wrong. The trumpets do not even begin until the 7th seal is opened. The seven seals parallel Matthew 24.
Don't ban me.............

 

[ewq1938]

Hi supervisor..........Your comment is totally and completely wrong. The trumpets do not even begin until the 7th seal is opened.

I already know the trumpets don't start until all the seals have been opened. What I was talking about is that the seals give a glimpse of the trumps. Most ppl think the events the seals speak of happen when each seal is opened.

 

[DavidPT]

The seven seals parallel Matthew 24

You're likely correct about this. So let's consider the 6th seal for a moment, as an example.

It appears to be lining up with Matthew 24:29. And that verse places these events after the tribulation of those days, meaning to me, the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. As to this 42 months, we see in Revelation 11 during the 6th trumpet, the two witnesses giving their testimony. And that once their testimony concludes, the beast in Revelation 13 shall make war with them, overcome them, and eventually kill them. Obviously all of these events have to precede the events in the 6th seal if the 6th seal is lining up with Matthew 24:29, and that that places the events of the 6th seal after the time of the beast in Revelation 13, where we already know in Revelation 11, 6 trumpets have already sounded. If you're able to follow what I'm saying here, you should be able to see that it's impossible that any of the 6 seals don't involve any of 7 trumpets. Of course they do.

 

[DavidPT]

I keep hitting the reply button instead of the edit button when I'm trying to edit one of my posts. Disregard this post then. There seems to be no delete option for when things like this happens.

 

[ewq1938]

You're likely correct about this. So let's consider the 6th seal for a moment, as an example.

It appears to be lining up with Matthew 24:29. And that verse places these events after the tribulation of those days, meaning to me, the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. As to this 42 months, we see in Revelation 11 during the 6th trumpet, the two witnesses giving their testimony. And that once their testimony concludes, the beast in Revelation 13 shall make war with them, overcome them, and eventually kill them. Obviously all of these events have to precede the events in the 6th seal if the 6th seal is lining up with Matthew 24:29, and that that places the events of the 6th seal after the time of the beast in Revelation 13, where we already know in Revelation 11, 6 trumpets have already sounded. If you're able to follow what I'm saying here, you should be able to see that it's impossible that any of the 6 seals don't involve any of 7 trumpets. Of course they do.

Exactly.

Here are some things I have written through the years. Sorry that I haven't formed this all into one study:

I have the most unique view of the seals. When a seal is opened nothing at all happened in the world! The only things that happens was that John saw snippets of events that happen when each trump sounds. Each seal simply gives a preview of one of the 7 trumps, generally some info not revealed in the scriptures describing the events of the trumps.

Example. The 6th seal shows events of the 7th trumpet. However, it's given from the perspective of the unsaved. They see Christ returning and are in fear. And naturally it is in the 7th trump that Christ returns. How can Christ return twice, once in the 6th seal and again at the 7th/last trump? Obviously the 6th seal return is not actually happening at the time the seal of opened but simply shows us a perspective of the 7th trump second coming before it happens.

So, the seals are not unique events separate from the trumps. That explains the problem with Christ returning in the 6th seal but not the 6th trump and also proves the seals don't show events in chronological order.

The seals are just previews of the trumps and not in order.



*********************



Well just ask yourself, if you agree the first seal shows the arrival of the antichrist, is that really the first thing that happens or are there other events prior to his arrival? Is not the AC the second beast of Rev 13? If so, then there are many things that precede his arrival.

Also, if the 6th seal is the second coming/7th trump then why isn't that the 7th opened instead of the 6th?

I think it's clear the events of the seals are not in chronological order because they don't match the actual end times chronology.


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here they are told there is still a season left for them to wait to witness the wrath of God yet in the very next seal suddenly God's wrath has come!

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The answer is the events of the first seal happen after the events of the 5th seal. Probably a seal or more actually happen after the 5th seals events.

God does things like this all the time. It throws people off. Revelation was never meant to be easy to understand and you can see that in the so many differing interpretations people have. Most try to force this non-chronological seal events into the rest of the chronology of Rev which naturally causes a massive amount of confusion. People even claim 1 seal, 1 trump and 1 vial all happen at the same time yet scripture states no angel even has a trumpet to sound until after all seals are opened.

*****************************


What I find to be very difficult is matching up which seal belongs to which trump but the first seal shows the antichrist coming and I know he comes in the 6th trump. Also, the 6th seals shows people's reactions to the coming of Christ and I know that is the 7th trump....the rest are more difficult but this is what it looks like:

first seal opened - speaks of 6th trump events

second seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

third seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

fourth seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

fifth seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

sixth seal opened - speaks of 7th trump event, return of Christ from the unsaved's perspective

seventh seal opened - possibly speaking of 3rd trump when satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven


One of the 7 seals is opened. We aren't told which one it is as far as it's chronological events.
Then a second one is opened, again not according to chronology of it's events.
Then a third one is opened
and a fourth
and a fifth
and a sixth
and the last one is opened making all 7 now opened.

The first seal that was opened shows the antichrist arriving and that doesn't happen first in chronology. That takes place after the 6th trumpet sounds, not when the first trumpet sounds.

So the true order is all seals opened, then trumpets given to the angels and they sound in chronological order, one at a time, and when the 7th trump sounds then the vials are poured out in numerical order. The seals are the only group of seven not given in numerical or chronological order but it takes lots of studying and guidance from the Spirit to realize this.


They aren't numbered according to chronology but the choice of order which is different which is why it says "one of the seals" was opened as the first one NOT the first chronological seal event was opened.

The events are not in chronological sequence. That is obvious by studying what each seal speaks about. The end times do not start with the appearance of the AC nor is there a second coming in the 6th seal and another second coming at the 7th trump. Clearly we must match a seal to one of the trumpets.

1st seal opened is actually chronologically seal number 6 matching trump number 6, the time period when the AC arrives.
6th seal opened is actually chronologically seal number 7 matching trump number 7, the time period of the second coming.

This is the key to understanding the seals and trumps.




***********************

There are things the seals speak of that happen later in the trumps, which prove the seals are not action, but a foretelling, a glimpse of what is to come. Battle plans in those days were written on scrolls often sealed with a seal or more....so a "General" would have to break each seal so he could read the scroll and know the battle plan, and then once that was done a signal like a trumpet sound would call the troops to action. Its a seven stage war. Once all seven are read and reviewed then the 7 stages (trumps) can be executed/started.


Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

This book has seven seals upon it, and the book can not be opened without first opening/breaking the seals. In the context of this vision, these seals would be wax marks on this book, and they would basically have the insignia of a King pressed into the middle of them so that only the intended, authorized person would be allowed to break them and open the book.


Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

This does not say which of the seven seals were opened first, only that one of them was opened. This is extremely important if one wants to fully understand the seals. This wasn’t the actual first or number one seal, it was only the first seal to be opened.

I wish to try to create a picture in your mind to help me illustrate exactly what I mean. Pretend you have a bible, but it is a small travel version of only the first seven books of the New Testament. You have Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians.

Now, pretend that I took a knife and and cut out each book so you had each book separated from the other and they were laid on the ground somewhere you could not see them in their proper order as listed above.

Just to make it obvious, lets also make a large number next to each book’s name to indicate which number book of the New Testament it is. So we would then have:

1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

Now, as you watch, I pick up “one of” the seven books and read it to myself. Which one did I read? Without seeing up close which one I had, or hearing what was read there would be no way to know exactly which one it was. But if I read it out loud, but didn’t say which number or what the name of the book was, you would be able to figure it out if you knew your NT bible well enough. The same exact type of thing is happening with the seven seals.

Pretend the first book I picked up was 6 Romans. It was the first book I read but not the actual first book! One could argue that it was the first book or book number one because it was the first I read, but that wouldn’t be true because Mathew is the actual first book of the NT.

The same is true for the seals. Christ opens “one of” the seven seals, but the only way to know which one it actually is would be to understand what knowledge of events it contained, and then compare that to the end time signs and make a decision. Since the seals give knowledge about the seven trumps, then that first seal to be opened would match the action of one of the seven trumps.


Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

For those who have understanding, this is clearly the appearance of the False Christ, the antichrist of the tribulation, satan himself. This is not some general warning of false teachers or false christs. This is THE false Christ which makes this seal the true 6th seal, which lines up to the 6th trump when the antichrist comes.

So, Christ had seven seals to open, and He began with the most important one to learn. He opened the 6th seal first!


1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

Back to my illustration: Lets pretend now that I have picked up and read 5 books, and now there are only two left. So, I pick up one of the two last books, the 6th book thusfar to be read and it becomes obvious from the reading that it is the book of 1st Corinthians, book number 7.

It is the 6th book I read, but in truth it is actually book number seven that merely was read after the 5th book, making it the 6th to be read.


Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is the “6th seal”, but just like in the example, this isn’t actually seal number six. It is merely the 6th seal that Christ opened. From the wording, we can know without a doubt that it is speaking of the number seven seal. And the number seven seal lines up with the 7th trump, the trump in which the one and only Lamb of God returns, Jesus Christ.

True, some of the events spoken in the beginning of that seal is confusing, and appears to be speaking of another seal/another trump but I assure you it is not. Everything that is spoken of within the entire sixth seal that was opened are all 7th trump events. The quake, the darkness, the falling stars, heaven departing and mountains moving are all things that happen after the 7th trump sounds. All these things are documented over and over and over throughout the word of God.


1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

The first book to be read was number 6 Romans.
And the first seal to be opened was the number 6 seal- Appearance of the antichrist!

The 6th book to be read was 7 1st Corinthians.
And the sixth seal to be opened was the number 7 seal- Appearance of the Lamb, Jesus Christ!

I do not know the order of the other 5 seals, or what trumps they have the knowledge of. They are not as easily to recognize as the seals dealing with the arrival of the antichrist, and the arrival of Christ. However, this should be more than enough to prove that the seals were not opened according to chronology, but in another order, most likely in the order Christ felt was most important to learn.

*************

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


What trumpet would these actions take place in? The 6th trumpet, the one where Satan comes as the false Christ. So this is how we know that the first seal was not seal number one in chronology, but was actually seal number six which matches up with trump six. Keep in mind that Christ did not open the seal in order, but he opened them in the order he wanted to teach in, not in the order the events would happen.

If you then look at the "6th seal" and look at the actions, you will see that all those actions are things that take place in the 7th trump making the "6th seal" actually seal number seven to match trumpet number seven.



7th trump to be the second coming then certainly there aren't two second comings so one must be action where the other is information. I believe the seals only give information about trumpet events. Thus we see a glimpse of the second coming from the unsaved's perspective but that event doesn't actually happen when that seal is opened. Just like the second coming described in the gospels also doesn't mean the second coming happened in those times, but it was merely a glimpse of the future event.

 

[Davy]

Found your post DavidPT. Very interesting so far.

The reason why I mentioned that I believe the seals, trumpets, and vials are parallels of each other, is because our Lord Jesus only gave us seven main signs to watch in His Olivet Discourse, and those directly parallel the 6 Seals of Rev.6, even the order they are being given (which is not necessarily the order they all occur).

I don't claim to be able to show a direct parallel between all the seals, trumpets, and vials like we are given between His Olivet Discourse and the Seals. But I find there is enough parallel in some of them that point to the seals, trumpets, and vials still being about only the seven signs He gave in His Olivet Discourse.

 

[DavidPT]

Exactly.

Here are some things I have written through the years. Sorry that I haven't formed this all into one study:

I have the most unique view of the seals. When a seal is opened nothing at all happened in the world! The only things that happens was that John saw snippets of events that happen when each trump sounds. Each seal simply gives a preview of one of the 7 trumps, generally some info not revealed in the scriptures describing the events of the trumps.

Example. The 6th seal shows events of the 7th trumpet. However, it's given from the perspective of the unsaved. They see Christ returning and are in fear. And naturally it is in the 7th trump that Christ returns. How can Christ return twice, once in the 6th seal and again at the 7th/last trump? Obviously the 6th seal return is not actually happening at the time the seal of opened but simply shows us a perspective of the 7th trump second coming before it happens.

So, the seals are not unique events separate from the trumps. That explains the problem with Christ returning in the 6th seal but not the 6th trump and also proves the seals don't show events in chronological order.

The seals are just previews of the trumps and not in order.



*********************



Well just ask yourself, if you agree the first seal shows the arrival of the antichrist, is that really the first thing that happens or are there other events prior to his arrival? Is not the AC the second beast of Rev 13? If so, then there are many things that precede his arrival.

Also, if the 6th seal is the second coming/7th trump then why isn't that the 7th opened instead of the 6th?

I think it's clear the events of the seals are not in chronological order because they don't match the actual end times chronology.


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here they are told there is still a season left for them to wait to witness the wrath of God yet in the very next seal suddenly God's wrath has come!

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The answer is the events of the first seal happen after the events of the 5th seal. Probably a seal or more actually happen after the 5th seals events.

God does things like this all the time. It throws people off. Revelation was never meant to be easy to understand and you can see that in the so many differing interpretations people have. Most try to force this non-chronological seal events into the rest of the chronology of Rev which naturally causes a massive amount of confusion. People even claim 1 seal, 1 trump and 1 vial all happen at the same time yet scripture states no angel even has a trumpet to sound until after all seals are opened.

*****************************


What I find to be very difficult is matching up which seal belongs to which trump but the first seal shows the antichrist coming and I know he comes in the 6th trump. Also, the 6th seals shows people's reactions to the coming of Christ and I know that is the 7th trump....the rest are more difficult but this is what it looks like:

first seal opened - speaks of 6th trump events

second seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

third seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

fourth seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

fifth seal opened - speaks of an unknown trump events

sixth seal opened - speaks of 7th trump event, return of Christ from the unsaved's perspective

seventh seal opened - possibly speaking of 3rd trump when satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven


One of the 7 seals is opened. We aren't told which one it is as far as it's chronological events.
Then a second one is opened, again not according to chronology of it's events.
Then a third one is opened
and a fourth
and a fifth
and a sixth
and the last one is opened making all 7 now opened.

The first seal that was opened shows the antichrist arriving and that doesn't happen first in chronology. That takes place after the 6th trumpet sounds, not when the first trumpet sounds.

So the true order is all seals opened, then trumpets given to the angels and they sound in chronological order, one at a time, and when the 7th trump sounds then the vials are poured out in numerical order. The seals are the only group of seven not given in numerical or chronological order but it takes lots of studying and guidance from the Spirit to realize this.


They aren't numbered according to chronology but the choice of order which is different which is why it says "one of the seals" was opened as the first one NOT the first chronological seal event was opened.

The events are not in chronological sequence. That is obvious by studying what each seal speaks about. The end times do not start with the appearance of the AC nor is there a second coming in the 6th seal and another second coming at the 7th trump. Clearly we must match a seal to one of the trumpets.

1st seal opened is actually chronologically seal number 6 matching trump number 6, the time period when the AC arrives.
6th seal opened is actually chronologically seal number 7 matching trump number 7, the time period of the second coming.

This is the key to understanding the seals and trumps.




***********************

There are things the seals speak of that happen later in the trumps, which prove the seals are not action, but a foretelling, a glimpse of what is to come. Battle plans in those days were written on scrolls often sealed with a seal or more....so a "General" would have to break each seal so he could read the scroll and know the battle plan, and then once that was done a signal like a trumpet sound would call the troops to action. Its a seven stage war. Once all seven are read and reviewed then the 7 stages (trumps) can be executed/started.


Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

This book has seven seals upon it, and the book can not be opened without first opening/breaking the seals. In the context of this vision, these seals would be wax marks on this book, and they would basically have the insignia of a King pressed into the middle of them so that only the intended, authorized person would be allowed to break them and open the book.


Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

This does not say which of the seven seals were opened first, only that one of them was opened. This is extremely important if one wants to fully understand the seals. This wasn’t the actual first or number one seal, it was only the first seal to be opened.

I wish to try to create a picture in your mind to help me illustrate exactly what I mean. Pretend you have a bible, but it is a small travel version of only the first seven books of the New Testament. You have Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians.

Now, pretend that I took a knife and and cut out each book so you had each book separated from the other and they were laid on the ground somewhere you could not see them in their proper order as listed above.

Just to make it obvious, lets also make a large number next to each book’s name to indicate which number book of the New Testament it is. So we would then have:

1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

Now, as you watch, I pick up “one of” the seven books and read it to myself. Which one did I read? Without seeing up close which one I had, or hearing what was read there would be no way to know exactly which one it was. But if I read it out loud, but didn’t say which number or what the name of the book was, you would be able to figure it out if you knew your NT bible well enough. The same exact type of thing is happening with the seven seals.

Pretend the first book I picked up was 6 Romans. It was the first book I read but not the actual first book! One could argue that it was the first book or book number one because it was the first I read, but that wouldn’t be true because Mathew is the actual first book of the NT.

The same is true for the seals. Christ opens “one of” the seven seals, but the only way to know which one it actually is would be to understand what knowledge of events it contained, and then compare that to the end time signs and make a decision. Since the seals give knowledge about the seven trumps, then that first seal to be opened would match the action of one of the seven trumps.


Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

For those who have understanding, this is clearly the appearance of the False Christ, the antichrist of the tribulation, satan himself. This is not some general warning of false teachers or false christs. This is THE false Christ which makes this seal the true 6th seal, which lines up to the 6th trump when the antichrist comes.

So, Christ had seven seals to open, and He began with the most important one to learn. He opened the 6th seal first!


1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

Back to my illustration: Lets pretend now that I have picked up and read 5 books, and now there are only two left. So, I pick up one of the two last books, the 6th book thusfar to be read and it becomes obvious from the reading that it is the book of 1st Corinthians, book number 7.

It is the 6th book I read, but in truth it is actually book number seven that merely was read after the 5th book, making it the 6th to be read.


Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is the “6th seal”, but just like in the example, this isn’t actually seal number six. It is merely the 6th seal that Christ opened. From the wording, we can know without a doubt that it is speaking of the number seven seal. And the number seven seal lines up with the 7th trump, the trump in which the one and only Lamb of God returns, Jesus Christ.

True, some of the events spoken in the beginning of that seal is confusing, and appears to be speaking of another seal/another trump but I assure you it is not. Everything that is spoken of within the entire sixth seal that was opened are all 7th trump events. The quake, the darkness, the falling stars, heaven departing and mountains moving are all things that happen after the 7th trump sounds. All these things are documented over and over and over throughout the word of God.


1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

The first book to be read was number 6 Romans.
And the first seal to be opened was the number 6 seal- Appearance of the antichrist!

The 6th book to be read was 7 1st Corinthians.
And the sixth seal to be opened was the number 7 seal- Appearance of the Lamb, Jesus Christ!

I do not know the order of the other 5 seals, or what trumps they have the knowledge of. They are not as easily to recognize as the seals dealing with the arrival of the antichrist, and the arrival of Christ. However, this should be more than enough to prove that the seals were not opened according to chronology, but in another order, most likely in the order Christ felt was most important to learn.

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Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


What trumpet would these actions take place in? The 6th trumpet, the one where Satan comes as the false Christ. So this is how we know that the first seal was not seal number one in chronology, but was actually seal number six which matches up with trump six. Keep in mind that Christ did not open the seal in order, but he opened them in the order he wanted to teach in, not in the order the events would happen.

If you then look at the "6th seal" and look at the actions, you will see that all those actions are things that take place in the 7th trump making the "6th seal" actually seal number seven to match trumpet number seven.



7th trump to be the second coming then certainly there aren't two second comings so one must be action where the other is information. I believe the seals only give information about trumpet events. Thus we see a glimpse of the second coming from the unsaved's perspective but that event doesn't actually happen when that seal is opened. Just like the second coming described in the gospels also doesn't mean the second coming happened in those times, but it was merely a glimpse of the future event.

Your mind apparently works similar to mine, with yours working a little better than mine of course. Some very impressive reasoning throughout this post.

 

[ewq1938]

Your mind apparently works similar to mine, with yours working a little better than mine of course. Some very impressive reasoning throughout this post.

I appreciate that. You are of the few over 20 years that I have found able to see and agree on this

 

[Davy]

1st Seal - false one riding a white horse with a crown and a bow of cheap fabric: Direct link to Jesus' warning to not allow any man to deceive you.

1st Trumpet - hail and fire mingled with blood cast on earth; third part of trees burned up and all green grass burned up: I don't see this as literal, but a spiritual metaphor, for the symbols of trees and grass have been used for men in certain places in God's Word (1 Pet.1:24; Mark 8:24). To me, this spiritually represents a third of men being yet alive but inside their being they are spiritually dead.

1st Vial - sores upon those who have the mark of the beast and worship his image: I agree with DavidPT, those events don't take place until at least the 6th Trumpet timing when the Rev.13 beast kingdom and the "image of the beast" is manifest. However... in Rev.6 with the 1st Seal rider on the white horse, we know it doesn't happen at the beginning either. So could this 1st Vial be following the order of Jesus' Olivet Discourse also, with the first warning being to not allow any man to deceive us?
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[Davy]

2nd Seal - red horse, a war horse: Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse that we would hear of wars and rumors of wars, but... don't be troubled, for those must be, but the end is not yet. That means as long as wars are going on, the tribulation at the end of this world is not yet.

2nd Trumpet - great mountain burning cast into the sea: third part of the sea became blood: once again, I don't believe this is about literal meteorites and such, but spiritual about peoples as the "sea" symbol. If related to the 2nd Seal, it would the idea of a third of the peoples' blood running from war.

2nd Vial - Rev 16:3
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
KJV

I think that pretty well explains the idea I had about the 2nd Trumpet.
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[Davy]

3rd Seal - a black horse, balances, measure of wheat, etc., but don't hurt the Oil or Wine -- the balances of world commerce, inflation, famine, hunger. But God's Word not cut off for His elect.

3rd Trumpet - star falls from heaven upon a third of the rivers and fountains of waters, 3rd part of the waters became wormwood, many men die because of the waters were made bitter. Like the 2nd trumpet, I don't believe this is meant literally about real waters, but peoples as the waters, meaning a 3rd of the peoples became bitter because of the hard times and deception of what is getting ready to come upon the world (i.e., the coming Antichrist).

3rd Vial - the 3rd angel pours his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood. One of the plagues upon Egypt. Literal? I don't think so, as the end times is primarily about deception to thinking the coming false messiah is God, instead of waiting on our Lord Jesus to return. I think this 3rd Vial is linked directly to the 3rd trumpet events of the waters (peoples) becoming bitter in their souls.
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[ewq1938]

The trumps are entirely different events aside from all the vials being poured once the 7th trump sounds. The differences between the first 6 vials and the first 6 trumps makes that quite clear.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This also proves that they are not the same. The first trump is long before the period when the mark of the beast is given out, which is in the 6th trump yet the first vial punishes those who had taken the mark in the 6th trump.How do you punish for taking the mark before the mark is ever given out?? The mark of the beast only appears in the 6th trumpet not in any trumpet before it.


Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Same general location, "the sea" but all the details are quite different. In the trump only thirds take place such as a third of living creatures died yet in the vial everything dies not merely a third. What we see is a greater plague than what happened in the trump. God's wrath is stronger!


Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.


Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Again only a third in the trump and the vial does not speak of Wormwood nor a falling star. The location is simply the same basic location of rivers and fountains and only in the vial is there a mention of becoming blood and no mention of anyone dying.




Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.


Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.


Sun and moon mentioned in the trump, in thirds again but no mention of the moon in the vial nor the sun harming anyone. Extremely different accounts. No one can make these into the same events told in different ways since the differences are far too vast.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Here we have very different account. One a star falls, opens the pit and locust come out which is obvious the preparation of the coming beast system that will control the world but the vial only shows the kingdom of the beast being punished and plagued showing yet again that this is after the events of the trump. You can't punish the beast and it's peoples if the beast hasn't even risen to power and committed it's sins yet!


Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The trump speaks of a third of men dying but the vial does not speak of any deaths only pain and sores nor does it speak of this evil army harming everyone. The vial actually speaks an army being raised which will eventually face off against Christ and his army in Rev 19. The same river is mentioned in both but all the details are completely different. That is a pattern in the trumps and vials that lets us know they are not the same events.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Only these match events and timeframe and that is no surprise because all 7 vials pour once the 7th trump sounds. These are the only pair that actually match and can be said to be speaking of the same events.

 

[Davy]

4th Seal - a pale horse; Death as the rider (another title for Satan); Hell follows him; power over a 4th part of the earth to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and with beasts. -- I believe this represents the main stage of beast one-world controls over a 4th of the nations on earth in prep for the coming false messiah.

4th Trumpet - third part of sun smitten, third part of the moon, third part of the stars, all darkened, day shown not for a third part of it, and night likewise. Not literal, but about spiritual darkness, a terrible time of spiritual darkness, a prepared time of deception by the soon to come false messiah. And a warning about the next 3 trumpets to come.

4th Vial - fourth vial poured upon the sun; scorch men with fire and great heat; the people blaspheme God. -- a link to the 4th trumpet I think, with a third part of the sun being smitten, a dark time, and now the scorching and the people blaspheme God for it.
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