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Garnet2727

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Hi all,

I rarely post or visit here, but every time I do, I see how much I'm missing. On to the OP...

I know very little about Islam other than a vague understanding of the Five Pillars and a little bit about the Prophet's life. Being an American woman, I've always thought of the veil as a way to subjugate and control women. I thought a Muslim woman wearing a veil was a symbol of oppression.

However, I've been reading a book called The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong. This book traces the history of fundamentalism in Christianity, Islam and Judaism. A couple of times in this book the author has stated that in modern Islam a woman wearing a veil is often a symbol of defiance. This book speaks of the history of the attempted oppressions of Islam in both Iran and Egypt. How rulers who were attempting to modernize and seculurize these two countries banned the wearing of the veil, among other things, in an attempt to sweep Islam out of way.

Women in these two countries were often brutalized and/or imprisoned for wearing the veil and showing the outward symbol of their faith.

I suspect that there are many reasons that Muslim woman wear the veil even though it's my understanding that a strict reading of the verses regarding this may be applied to the Prophets wives only.

So, I would like to know from the Muslims who participate here why modern Muslim women choose the veil.

Edited to add: By the way, I really don't want to see this thread turn into a discussion of whether it is right or wrong for a woman to wear the veil. I'd just like a better understanding of the reasons.
 

yaqovzadeek

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Garnet2727 said:
Hi all,

I rarely post or visit here, but every time I do, I see how much I'm missing. On to the OP...

I know very little about Islam other than a vague understanding of the Five Pillars and a little bit about the Prophet's life. Being an American woman, I've always thought of the veil as a way to subjugate and control women. I thought a Muslim woman wearing a veil was a symbol of oppression.

However, I've been reading a book called The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong. This book traces the history of fundamentalism in Christianity, Islam and Judaism. A couple of times in this book the author has stated that in modern Islam a woman wearing a veil is often a symbol of defiance. This book speaks of the history of the attempted oppressions of Islam in both Iran and Egypt. How rulers who were attempting to modernize and seculurize these two countries banned the wearing of the veil, among other things, in an attempt to sweep Islam out of way.

Women in these two countries were often brutalized and/or imprisoned for wearing the veil and showing the outward symbol of their faith.

I suspect that there are many reasons that Muslim woman wear the veil even though it's my understanding that a strict reading of the verses regarding this may be applied to the Prophets wives only.

So, I would like to know from the Muslims who participate here why modern Muslim women choose the veil.

Edited to add: By the way, I really don't want to see this thread turn into a discussion of whether it is right or wrong for a woman to wear the veil. I'd just like a better understanding of the reasons.
hi as a man i don't think it is up to me to answer such issues I think it is best for women who are In the veil to answer that.I know many women who have converted to Islam and they Choose to wear the veil.They even fight to wear it.I recently saw a documentary where a woman in Turkey who was legally elected into Parlaiment was Kicked out and her nationality revocked for wearing the veil.Karen Young is good her books are very good she used to be a nun.
I saw this link may be it might interest you.:
http://www.talkaboutculture.com/group/soc.culture.usa/messages/1592486.html
As i said this issue cconcerns women who wear the veil and i think it is only too right to let them answer it.Here is a link.May be you can ask them I am sure they don't bite.LOL:
http://www.imanway.com/en/
Peace
Yaqovzadeek
aka James the Just
 
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ammuslim

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Bismillah:

Garnet2727 said:
Hi all,

I rarely post or visit here, but every time I do, I see how much I'm missing. On to the OP...

I know very little about Islam other than a vague understanding of the Five Pillars and a little bit about the Prophet's life. Being an American woman, I've always thought of the veil as a way to subjugate and control women. I thought a Muslim woman wearing a veil was a symbol of oppression.

However, I've been reading a book called The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong. This book traces the history of fundamentalism in Christianity, Islam and Judaism. A couple of times in this book the author has stated that in modern Islam a woman wearing a veil is often a symbol of defiance. This book speaks of the history of the attempted oppressions of Islam in both Iran and Egypt. How rulers who were attempting to modernize and seculurize these two countries banned the wearing of the veil, among other things, in an attempt to sweep Islam out of way.

Women in these two countries were often brutalized and/or imprisoned for wearing the veil and showing the outward symbol of their faith.

I suspect that there are many reasons that Muslim woman wear the veil even though it's my understanding that a strict reading of the verses regarding this may be applied to the Prophets wives only.

So, I would like to know from the Muslims who participate here why modern Muslim women choose the veil.

Edited to add: By the way, I really don't want to see this thread turn into a discussion of whether it is right or wrong for a woman to wear the veil. I'd just like a better understanding of the reasons.

i would like to offer you a very comprehensive answer from a Muslims scholar.

Question:
Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

Answer:

The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijaab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijaab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam
1.
In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust

The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:


  • Babylonian Civilization:
    The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.
  • Greek Civilization:
    Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.
  • Roman Civilization:
    When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.
  • Egyptian Civilization:
    The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.
  • Pre-Islamic Arabia:
    Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

2.
Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.

Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.

Hijaab for men
People usually only discuss ‘hijaab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijaab’ for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.
Hijaab for women.
The next verse of Surah Noor, says:

" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..."
[Al-Qur’an 24:31]

3. Six criteria for Hijaab.


According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijaab:
  • Extent:

    The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijaab’.

    All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.
  • The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.
  • The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.
  • The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.
  • The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.
  • The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

4.
Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things

Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

5. Hijaab prevents molestation


The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]


The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.
6.
Example of twin sisters

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

7.
Capital punishment for the rapists

Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

8.
Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women

Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

9.
USA has one of the highest rates of rape

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?
10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes


Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.
I figured the US would get in there. But Worldwide and in other countries, I wonder how many rapes of women and children go unreported? Africa for instance is rampant with rape by bands of hooldlums.

 
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ammuslim

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LittleLambofJesus said:
I figured the US would get in there. But Worldwide and in other countries, I wonder how many rapes of women and children go unreported? Africa for instance is rampant with rape by bands of hooldlums.

I think the topic about the Hijab or veil, the rape thing was an example only. We are not comparing between the rape cases in America and Africa. The scholar maybe mentioned America because it is one of the most advanced countries in the world.

Salam
ammuslim


Salam
ammuslim
 
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MercuryAndy

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ok i have to point out three things.

1. i have to say he would be more likely to rape the one wearing the hajji. As rapests are realy sick and twisted and are likely to take advantage of the fact they will feel violated if the haji is removed and you can grab a haji you cant grab tight fighting clothing. So which is easier for a twisted person to rape. The person who is wearing tight clothes who can run or the woman wearing the haji who can be grabbed by the clothes?

2. the reason haji are a bad idea is beacuse it becomes harder to to identify people. People assosiate the colour of haji with a person. So if someone was wearing someone elses haji they could say for instance walk into parliment and kill everyone. People usualy dont look at someones face if they are walking . They will usualy look at their clothes and hair.

But other than that i support the haji. Unless it is a safety issue then it should not be worn. At all.
 
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Bookofknowledge

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24:30
Enjoin the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that is chaster for them. Surely Allah is well aware of their actions.

24:31
Likewise enjoin the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; not to display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; let them draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their fathers-in-law, their own sons, their stepsons, their own brothers, their nephews on either brothers' or sisters' sides, their own womenfolk, their own slaves, male attendants who lack sexual desires or small children who have no carnal knowledge of women. Also enjoin them not to strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden trinkets. And O believers! Turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, about your past mistakes, so that you may attain salvation.

-----------------------

33:57
Surely those who annoy Allah and His Rasool, are cursed by Allah in this world and in the hereafter. He has prepared for them a humiliating punishment.

33:58
And those who annoy believing men and believing women, for no fault of theirs, shall bear the guilt of slander and an evident sin.

33:59
O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, daughters and the believing women that they should draw their outer garments over their persons. That is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


----------------------------------

33:73
(The inevitable result of bearing the burden of Allah's Trust is) that Allah will punish the hypocrite men, the hypocrite women, the mushrik men and the mushrik women, and that Allah will turn in mercy to the believing men and the believing women: for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

----------------------------------------

The verse of veil is for believing women and those who don't believe has the oppertunity to answer Allah directly on the day of resurrection.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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24:31
Likewise enjoin the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; not to display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; let them draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their fathers-in-law, their own sons, their stepsons, their own brothers, their nephews on either brothers' or sisters' sides, their own womenfolk, their own slaves, male attendants who lack sexual desires or small children who have no carnal knowledge of women. Also enjoin them not to strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden trinkets. And O believers! Turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, about your past mistakes, so that you may attain salvation.
Are you sure muhammad never met Paul? :eek: Maybe Jesus came to muhammad too like he did Paul? :wave:

1 timo 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
 
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Bookofknowledge

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Are you sure muhammad never met Paul?

paul? I don't think paul was alive during the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) - was he?

LittleLambofJesus said:
Maybe Jesus came to muhammad too like he did Paul?

No Jesus didn't came to Muhammad but they met during the life time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Bookofknowledge said:
paul? I don't think paul was alive during the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) - was he?
No Jesus didn't came to Muhammad but they met during the life time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)
Muhammad actually met Jesus? Kewl!!!! Jesus and Paul and Muhammad are probably having a brewski together right now.:wave:
 
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yasser

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MercuryAndy said:
ok i have to point out three things.

1. i have to say he would be more likely to rape the one wearing the hajji. As rapests are realy sick and twisted and are likely to take advantage of the fact they will feel violated if the haji is removed and you can grab a haji you cant grab tight fighting clothing. So which is easier for a twisted person to rape. The person who is wearing tight clothes who can run or the woman wearing the haji who can be grabbed by the clothes?



2. the reason haji are a bad idea is beacuse it becomes harder to to identify people. People assosiate the colour of haji with a person. So if someone was wearing someone elses haji they could say for instance walk into parliment and kill everyone. People usualy dont look at someones face if they are walking . They will usualy look at their clothes and hair.

This is Gods orders..its not an idea..its not a matter of discussion.

But other than that i support the haji. Unless it is a safety issue then it should not be worn. At all.[/
quote]

Do you mean Hijab?
 
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Clark_98C

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Bookofknowledge said:
No Jesus didn't came to Muhammad but they met during the life time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

Muhammad cannot have met the biological form of Jesus. Muhammad was born hundreds of years after Jesus' mortal body had long since ceased to exist.

Are you saying he met his spirit or something?
 
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MercuryAndy

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yasser said:
MercuryAndy said:
ok i have to point out three things.



Childish opinion expected from a 15 year old child



This is Gods orders..its not an idea..its not a matter of discussion.

quote]

By the way what is hajii???are you wake up or what..what you are talking about???Do you mean Hijab..

You only say its childish beacuse you know i am rite.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Are you sure muhammad never met Paul? :eek: Maybe Jesus came to muhammad too like he did Paul? :wave:

1 timo 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
yasser said:
Are you really unaware that prophet muhammad and prophet jesus met ???we can tell you the event if you would like???
Sure. What did He look like?
 
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Bookofknowledge

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Clark_98C said:
Muhammad cannot have met the biological form of Jesus. Muhammad was born hundreds of years after Jesus' mortal body had long since ceased to exist.

Are you saying he met his spirit or something?

Based on my knowledge and my belief, I don't claim they met in spiritual form.

any ways it's another topic which has nothing to do with this thread so lets just stick to the topic.
 
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Kathaleen

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Peace be upon you:

I would like to try to explain the purpose of the veil in Islam:

The purpose of the veil is not complex. First, it is ordained by Allah, swt. Second, there is no compulsion in religion, and I am not forced to wear it by anyone. The Hijab is an act of faith, ensures modesty, and is not oppressive. Muslim women who wear the Hijab are proud to wear it.

For those that lack knowledge about Islam think of it in terms of the Nun that wears her habit. I'm sure when you look at her you think she is honouring her faith and worshipping God. You don't look at her as if she is oppressed and pity her. There is no difference here. She is treated with respect just as Muslim women wearing Hijab should be treated, and for the most part, they are.

I hope this will give you a better understanding. :)

Peace,
Kathaleen

PS: for the youngster that referred to Hajj as the the Hijab. You don't wear Hajj you go to Hajj. :) It is the Pilgramage to Mecca performed by Muslims.
 
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warghaha

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yasser said:
Childish opinion expected from a 15 year old child
This is uncalled statement, brother;).

MercuryAndy said:
1. i have to say he would be more likely to rape the one wearing the hajji. As rapests are realy sick and twisted and are likely to take advantage of the fact they will feel violated if the haji is removed and you can grab a haji you cant grab tight fighting clothing. So which is easier for a twisted person to rape. The person who is wearing tight clothes who can run or the woman wearing the haji who can be grabbed by the clothes?
Lol:D. You have interesting idea but I disagree.
Who'll run faster? Men or women?

When the rapist can grab the victim, it's certainly that they're close in distance. Whether the victim wearing a hijab or mini skirt, it's not the matter anymore. He can grab her by her hands, her hair, her etc etc. What makes the difference here is, what make the rapist select the victim. Because she's hot and alone or because she's wearing a hijab and has a companion?

2. the reason haji are a bad idea is beacuse it becomes harder to to identify people. People assosiate the colour of haji with a person. So if someone was wearing someone elses haji they could say for instance walk into parliment and kill everyone. People usualy dont look at someones face if they are walking . They will usualy look at their clothes and hair.
Muslimah wear a varieties of clothings with hijab. This is not an issue either. How many women has same style of hair? Too many I'm afraid.

If you want to make an arguement about using CCTV to identify a suspect, then it's just as harder to identify them by looking to their clothe and hair. Unless, they can have a clear view of the face. Take a bank robbery for example. A suspect wearing a mask and expose her hair and of course, clothe. Can a police use this as an evidence to identify the suspect? Nope. They hvae to confirm with fingerprints if any, the face, the height of the suspect, etc. Clothing? There're too many identical clothings in market. Hair style? Nope. There're many same hair style. And the criminals are aren't too stupid to expose their face, unique clothes or hair style, etc.

[EDIT]Hijab is not only to prevent rapist. It's to prevent free sex and other problems caused by unmodesty clothings.

Salaam
 
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MercuryAndy

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warghaha said:
If you want to make an arguement about using CCTV to identify a suspect, then it's just as harder to identify them by looking to their clothe and hair. Unless, they can have a clear view of the face. Take a bank robbery for example. A suspect wearing a mask and expose her hair and of course, clothe. Can a police use this as an evidence to identify the suspect? Nope. They hvae to confirm with fingerprints if any, the face, the height of the suspect, etc. Clothing? There're too many identical clothings in market. Hair style? Nope. There're many same hair style. And the criminals are aren't too stupid to expose their face, unique clothes or hair style, etc.


Salaam

The use of cctv can be to find out who say set a house on fire. If you see the same person in the same building shortly before it went up in flames then you seen them in another building which went up in flames would it not be safe to assume that person is setting the building on fire?
 
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