The USA has grounded its entire fleet of F-35 fighter jets

[Waterwerx]

What I find to be absolutely stupid is how we're throwing away all of this money on "stealth" technology and building an entire fleet of aircraft with it. The current Russian air defense systems can easily spot those so-called stealthy F-35's and blow them right out of the sky. I guess we didn't learn anything about overconfidence when Gary Powers was shot down, or when one of our stealth bombers was shot down over in Bosnia.

Why our military continues to throw money away on building entire fleets of craft that can only be invisible to radar of specific bandwidths is beyond me. My guess is they put too much faith in their electronic jamming and figure they will only be fighting 3rd world countries that have Cold War military equipment.

 

[Biblicist]

Last month we held our International Air Show at Avalon here in Australia. Sadly for those who wanted to view the first appearance of the F-35 was that it was not allowed to fly due to some nearby lightning that the F-35 organisers were concerned about at the F-35 apparently cannot fly near lightning as the piece of junk could very easily fall out of the sky.

I would like to think that our government will show some sense and cancel our purchase of any more F-35's and instead seek out an alternative replacement fighter for our use as the F-35 seems to be nothing more than a lemon.

 

[JackRT]

Last month we held our International Air Show at Avalon here in Australia. Sadly for those who wanted to view the first appearance of the F-35 was that it was not allowed to fly due to some nearby lightning that the F-35 organisers were concerned about at the F-35 apparently cannot fly near lightning as the piece of junk could very easily fall out of the sky.

I would like to think that our government will show some sense and cancel our purchase of any more F-35's and instead seek out an alternative replacement fighter for our use as the F-35 seems to be nothing more than a lemon.

Pending an order to replace our old early model F-18s, the Canadian government has placed an interim order for 18 Super F-18s. This almost certainly means that the F-35 is not under consideration. I suspect that within 10 years the manned fighter will be obsolete.

 

[Biblicist]

Pending an order to replace our old early model F-18s, the Canadian government has placed an interim order for 18 Super F-18s. This almost certainly means that the F-35 is not under consideration. I suspect that within 10 years the manned fighter will be obsolete.

Hopefully the Australian government will come to its senses and follow the lead of the Canadians by cancelling our purchase of any more of these lemons.

My greatest concern is with the new Russian PAK T-50 which appears to outclass the F-35 in virtually every category; I have no concern with the Russians having these aircraft but I am concerned that they are reportedly about to sell a variant of the T-50 to our Muslim neighbour Indonesia which means that if we do buy the F-35's that this will leave us unprotected when it comes to having a viable fighter defence.

 

[JackRT]

Hopefully the Australian government will come to its senses and follow the lead of the Canadians by cancelling our purchase of any more of these lemons.

My greatest concern is with the new Russian PAK T-50 which appears to outclass the F-35 in virtually every category; I have no concern with the Russians having these aircraft but I am concerned that they are reportedly about to sell a variant of the T-50 to our Muslim neighbour Indonesia which means that if we do buy the F-35's that this will leave us unprotected when it comes to having a viable fighter defence.

Do Australians consider Indonesia to be a serious military threat?

 

[Armoured]

Do Australians consider Indonesia to be a serious military threat?

Depends who you ask.

Probably not in terms of outright invasion, however they do have territorial ambitions on neighbours we consider allies. They're also not great at respecting our sea borders, and adequate firepower is considered necessary to have the chops to turn them back when needed. There are always concerns about the Indons trying to block Australian and/or allies shipping through the Malacca straights, which is a major element of our strategic planning.

It was a bit different during the Cold War, when they were closer to the Sovs than us, and tensions ran a little high at times. But the truth is a serious invasion of Australia would be as fatal as an invasion of Afghanistan, and Australian Defence is built around protecting national interests overseas and assisting strategic allies.

 

[RDKirk]

Pending an order to replace our old early model F-18s, the Canadian government has placed an interim order for 18 Super F-18s. This almost certainly means that the F-35 is not under consideration. I suspect that within 10 years the manned fighter will be obsolete.

Before I retired from the Air Force, I was invited to a retirement after-party in the late 90s of a general who I'd worked with many years before when we had both been young and junior. That general privately opined that the F-22 would be the last manned US fighter.

When the F-35 debuted, I figured the general was wrong. But...the F-35 isn't in service yet. So he might yet be right.

 

[Armoured]

Before I retired from the Air Force, I was invited to a retirement after-party in the late 90s of a general who I'd worked with many years before when we had both been young and junior. That general privately opined that the F-22 would be the last manned US fighter.

My Dad's been predicting this generation of fighter would probably be the last manned fighter, too. He finished as a full airfarce colonel.

 

[Biblicist]

Do Australians consider Indonesia to be a serious military threat?

I doubt if anyone here in Australia considers Indonesia to be a serious military threat but as they are a Muslim country there is always the potential for some erratic behaviour by some rogue generals. Do I consider that in our day and age that Australia faces any serious threat from another country, not really, as I think that those days have now passed where I doubt if we will ever seen anyone ever attempting an invasion of Australia.

Having said this, there is always the possibility that Indonesia might decide to take some action over some marine mineral rights in the Indian Ocean that Australia might claim as being ours. If Australia in lumbered with the F-35 this could encourage the Indonesians sometime in the future to push some marine claims where they could use these proposed Sukhoi T-50's to establish a no-go zone for Australia as our F-35's would not be seen as a serious opponent to the Russian T-50.

 

[Armoured]

Excellent in depth analysis of the current situation with the JSF in Australia, for anyone interested;

Is the Joint Strike Fighter the right plane for Australia?

If the Seps didn't want to sell us the F-22, we should have gone elsewhere. Australia's capital procurement planners have a weird fixation on American equipment. In armoured circles, at least, everyone I know has wanted Russian replacements, rather than tacking jury rigged upgrades onto ageing American chassis, for at least the last 15 years. I assume there are similar feelings among the fishos and airfarce.

 

[Biblicist]

Excellent in depth analysis of the current situation with the JSF in Australia, for anyone interested;

Is the Joint Strike Fighter the right plane for Australia?

If the Seps didn't want to sell us the F-22, we should have gone elsewhere. Australia's capital procurement planners have a weird fixation on American equipment. In armoured circles, at least, everyone I know has wanted Russian replacements, rather than tacking jury rigged upgrades onto ageing American chassis, for at least the last 15 years. I assume there are similar feelings among the fishos and airfarce.

It does seem that we are being hampered by our reliance on what is often outmoded US equipment. The new Russian Armata T-14 main battle tank seems impressive where it is reported that they plan to release an unmanned version of this tank in a couple of years.

 

[Armoured]

It does seem that we are being hampered by our reliance on what is often outmoded US equipment. The new Russian Armata T-14 main battle tank seems impressive where it is reported that they plan to release an unmanned version of this tank in a couple of years.

I and everyone I knew wanted Merkava-3, if possible, or, failing that, Challenger-2, as the MBT upgrade back when they retired the Leps. So we got obsolescent Abrams 1.

Then there's the M113 debacle. They gave us M113AS4, where they took vehicle chassis literally >50 years old, cut them in half, fitted a bunch of untested equipment from different suppliers, and welded back up. We could have had brand new BMP-3 to replace the Buckets, too, for less cost.

 

[Biblicist]

My Dad's been predicting this generation of fighter would probably be the last manned fighter, too. He finished as a full airfarce colonel.

We certainly live in an ever changing world where we are apparently moving into an era where fighters and main battle tanks are about to be controlled by potentially even "civilians" in some remote control room.

If the Russians are able to develop an effective drone network of frontline fighters and main battle tanks, this should certainly change the dynamics of the US/NATO aggression toward Russia that we are now seeing. If they are able to develop these drones, will the Europeans want to continue their aggressive stance toward Russia and will the US be able to afford to develop a system that will be able to match this new technology? If the antics of the failed F-35 program is what we can expect from the US military-industrial complex then are we about to see the US slowly withdrawing from the world scene if they are no longer able to produce equipment that is able to match that of the Russians and Chinese; who would ever have thought that this type of situation could occur or where it is now even being discussed as a possibility.

 

[Biblicist]

As much as this is a fascinating discussion I will need to sign off for the rest of the day.

 

[Armoured]

We certainly live in an ever changing world where we are apparently moving into an era where fighters and main battle tanks are about to be controlled by potentially even "civilians" in some remote control room.

If the Russians are able to develop an effective drone network of frontline fighters and main battle tanks, this should certainly change the dynamics of the US/NATO aggression toward Russia that we are now seeing. If they are able to develop these drones, will the Europeans want to continue their aggressive stance toward Russia and will the US be able to afford to develop a system that will be able to match this new technology? If the antics of the failed F-35 program is what we can expect from the US military-industrial complex then are we about to see the US slowly withdrawing from the world scene if they are no longer able to produce equipment that is able to match that of the Russians and Chinese; who would ever have thought that this type of situation could occur or where it is now even being discussed as a possibility.

IMPO, while unmanned drones may be on the cusp of replacing manned air superiority fighters, I can't see robots replacing crewed armour any time soon. Sure, a computer may be able to target, shoot, navigate and even drive better than a human crew, but how doe it deal with a jammed gun? How does it deal with a thrown track? What about getting bogged? How does it deal with basic daily maintenance? Can it receive an in field replenishment of stores? A drone that returns to base each day is one thing, but forward operating armour is different, and armoured vehicles, despite their battle survivability, in term of ongoing maintenance and day to day operation, are surprisingly delicate and temperamental.

I hope that no civilian decides to buy drone armour based on a morning watching a fire power demonstration over a cleared piece of flat ground, rather than at least months of operations-like assessment in varied terrain.

 

[Waterwerx]

Our US military is becoming so dependent on satellites and electronics, we're becoming like a 3-legged stool: just kick out one of the legs, and the stool along with anyone sitting on it will fall.
If people think the US is in any way prepared for a conflict with a near-peer enemy, they're in for a rude awakening. It may look nice on paper how much money we spend on R&D, defense, etc., until you realize a lot of it is being wasted/thrown away on buying stuff at overinflated prices, which doesn't equate to squat when it comes to fighting a real war against near-peer enemies.
To make matters worse, we're stupid enough to have our sensitive information piped into the internet. I don't care how secure one makes a server or computer, if its jacked in to the internet, it can be broken into and its data stolen/copied from anywhere on the planet that has internet access.

The F-35 is just another example of someone wanting to fill their own pockets with money. The idea that you can take a single type of aircraft and have it replace AND excel in all the roles of the other aircraft that it will be replacing, including a competent dogfighter role, is just dumb. To think that this will be cheaper is even dumber. All I see in the F-35 is someone's attempt to increase both the sale cost per unit and the number of units to be sold by sacrificing performance in all of its roles. It would be an excellent idea if we were able to convince all of our enemies to stay at a pre-1980's technology level.

 

[Waterwerx]

We certainly live in an ever changing world where we are apparently moving into an era where fighters and main battle tanks are about to be controlled by potentially even "civilians" in some remote control room.

If the Russians are able to develop an effective drone network of frontline fighters and main battle tanks, this should certainly change the dynamics of the US/NATO aggression toward Russia that we are now seeing. If they are able to develop these drones, will the Europeans want to continue their aggressive stance toward Russia and will the US be able to afford to develop a system that will be able to match this new technology? If the antics of the failed F-35 program is what we can expect from the US military-industrial complex then are we about to see the US slowly withdrawing from the world scene if they are no longer able to produce equipment that is able to match that of the Russians and Chinese; who would ever have thought that this type of situation could occur or where it is now even being discussed as a possibility.

The problem is we rely on things such as aircraft carriers that take years to build at a cost of over 5 billion dollars that can easily be destroyed in a matter of minutes for a very small fraction of the cost. Our submarines are fast becoming obsolete and they each have the price tag about half that of an aircraft carrier. If you don't control the sea from below, aircraft carriers will be the first thing to get blown out of the water.
When our ability to project power is blunted, I don't think a near-peer enemy is going to wait around for us to adapt and build more. We no longer have the luxury as we did in WW-II where we have enough time to build/rebuild and project more force before the enemy starts hitting us on the homeland. They're going to continue until they bring us to our knees, assuming things haven't gone nuclear already.

Another issue is money has become more important than the defense of the country. Everything is profit-driven, as in, "lets see how much money we can rip off from the government".

 

[Biblicist]

The problem is we rely on things such as aircraft carriers that take years to build at a cost of over 5 billion dollars that can easily be destroyed in a matter of minutes for a very small fraction of the cost. Our submarines are fast becoming obsolete and they each have the price tag about half that of an aircraft carrier. If you don't control the sea from below, aircraft carriers will be the first thing to get blown out of the water.
When our ability to project power is blunted, I don't think a near-peer enemy is going to wait around for us to adapt and build more. We no longer have the luxury as we did in WW-II where we have enough time to build/rebuild and project more force before the enemy starts hitting us on the homeland. They're going to continue until they bring us to our knees, assuming things haven't gone nuclear already.

Another issue is money has become more important than the defense of the country. Everything is profit-driven, as in, "lets see how much money we can rip off from the government".

As the US, the UK and even Australia no longer have enemies that will ever attempt to attack us, then it becomes difficult to justify spending billions of dollars on toys that more often than not amount to being merely status symbols.

This does not mean that we should not have a modern and efficient military, but in this day and age there is really no need for the type of military infrastructure that was maybe best suited to WW2. If we look at the recent debacle with the British nuclear Trident submarines, it has been revealed that that these submarines may not even be able to successfully fire any of their missiles where the UK would probably be better off scrapping them altogether.

As the US and Russia both have sizable ground based nuclear missiles, these systems which have served the world well for the past 60 years will continue to keep away any potential attack by some other country, though I seriously doubt that Mexico will ever decide to attack the US and I doubt if Latvia or even Germany would be prepared to attack Russia.

 

[Armoured]

As the US, the UK and even Australia no longer have enemies that will ever attempt to attack us, then it becomes difficult to justify spending billions of dollars on toys that more often than not amount to being merely status symbols.

This does not mean that we should not have a modern and efficient military, but in this day and age there is really no need for the type of military infrastructure that was maybe best suited to WW2. If we look at the recent debacle with the British nuclear Trident submarines, it has been revealed that that these submarines may not even be able to successfully fire any of their missiles where the UK would probably be better off scrapping them altogether.

As the US and Russia both have sizable ground based nuclear missiles, these systems which have served the world well for the past 60 years will continue to keep away any potential attack by some other country, though I seriously doubt that Mexico will ever decide to attack the US and I doubt if Latvia or even Germany would be prepared to attack Russia.

It's not that "no one will ever attack us", the age of set piece battles between massed troop formations is probably over, but the nature of warfare has changed, rather than vanished.

 

[Biblicist]

It's not that "no one will ever attack us", the age of set piece battles between massed troop formations is probably over, but the nature of warfare has changed, rather than vanished.

That was a good reply where I was wondering when I wrote my previous post if I should have said much the same thing.

For countries such as Australia, New Zealand and probably England they will undoubtedly never see massed infantry forces trying to invade, but with my earlier example where I referred to some possible aggression by a rogue Indonesian general who has at his hands fighter aircraft that are more superior to our future F-35's, they could easily be tempted to keep Australian mining outside of marine regions that they deem to be theirs. They would be well aware that our proposed F-35's would be no match for their future purchases of the Russian Tupolev T-50 fighter; if they deem that our air deterrent capabilities are of little value then they could certainly start acting tough with Australia.

As for Europe, even though the US is certainly trying to force a conflict with the Russian Federation, I doubt that the land forces of the US and NATO would have the capability to seriously threaten Russia as the Russian forces seem to be superior at this point of time.