The Unseen Costs of Abortion

[Yekcidmij]

I've always been curious as to the unseen costs of abortion and think there is some, probably unquantifiable cost, to abortion. At the very least, we're talking about millions of people who would have been here, but aren't; millions of people who would have put their brains to work contributing in various fashions to the flourishing of society.

One anecdotal story is of current Ohio State running back JK Dobbins, who's mother almost aborted him:

Live Action on Twitter

If we could observe the counterfactual world, I wonder how many would-be (or better) J.K. Dobbins' there would have been? How many would-be doctors, innovators, entrepreneurs, leaders, caretakers, workers, consumers, producers, etc.. are missing because they were aborted before they were allowed to develop? What would the world look like if they had been present? Would we have cured diseases that have so far been incurable? Would we have some process improved or technology invented that would have improved all of our lives to some relatively higher degree than our current state?

I suspect there is a substantial cost that is probably unquantifiable and unseen. It's a cost in millions of, perhaps even small, contributions to the flourishing of society.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's an awkward way of looking at it though, [ God hates divorce/ how much more God hates abortion! ]
yet most people born never , um, do any good.....
so that's not God's point in giving life - that everyone do good.... (though it may be our hope for each person individually we meet ) .....

Why does God give life to so many who never do good ? Who never even think of doing good ?
(this in NO WAY justifies any kind of taking a life, ever, btw) Simply what is God's perspective ? What purpose does God have in so many lives , whether lost before birth, or lived a number of years ?

 

[DennisTate]

I've always been curious as to the unseen costs of abortion and think there is some, probably unquantifiable cost, to abortion. At the very least, we're talking about millions of people who would have been here, but aren't; millions of people who would have put their brains to work contributing in various fashions to the flourishing of society.

One anecdotal story is of current Ohio State running back JK Dobbins, who's mother almost aborted him:

Live Action on Twitter

If we could observe the counterfactual world, I wonder how many would-be (or better) J.K. Dobbins' there would have been? How many would-be doctors, innovators, entrepreneurs, leaders, caretakers, workers, consumers, producers, etc.. are missing because they were aborted before they were allowed to develop? What would the world look like if they had been present? Would we have cured diseases that have so far been incurable? Would we have some process improved or technology invented that would have improved all of our lives to some relatively higher degree than our current state?

I suspect there is a substantial cost that is probably unquantifiable and unseen. It's a cost in millions of, perhaps even small, contributions to the flourishing of society.

That is an excellent question indeed!

Widespread acceptance of abortion makes most of our hearts somewhat more cold.

Matthew 24:12
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of manyshall wax cold."

A powerful case can even be presented that once Roe vs Wade occurred plans began to put economic pressure on women to choose to have an abortion.

Could a Basic Minimum Income for all Americans decrease abortions?

I could be wrong... .I often am but I do suspect at least some connection between Roe vs Wade happening in 1973 and then one year later Prime Minister Pierre E. Trudeau is somehow talked into making what I believe may be the most serious error by a sitting Canadian Prime Minister in the last six decades.

It would have been impossible to arrange the following surge in the national debt of the USA:

The Public-Debt Problem
Written by Alain Pilote on Monday, 30 June 1986. Posted in In This Age of Plenty (book)

If Canada had continued with the rather brilliant central banking policies that we had had from 1939 - 1974.

OPEC oil prices were one factor in this......
but so perhaps were the ideas of Thomas Robert Malthus :



Here are the statistics for deaths among African Americans since 1973:




The Bank of Canada Must Finance our Country, Debt-Free
on Wednesday, 01 March 1995. Posted in In This Age of Plenty (book)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A powerful case can even be presented that once Roe vs Wade occurred plans began to put economic pressure on women to choose to have an abortion.
Could a Basic Minimum Income for all Americans decrease abortions?

Could putting everyone in prison decrease abortions? Sure.
But it is not right.
Could the nazis in germany have prevented some or most abortions at that time?
Sure, but it was not good for all. It was not the right way.
Can the beast system(part of which is "common income") for all Americans decrease abortions ? Sure, at least apparently, but it does not make it good nor right. More souls are lost daily because of it.

 

[RaymondG]

You give Man way too much credit and take too much credit away from God. God cannot say Live....and man say die....... God did not fail in giving life to the million you mentioned in the OP. When God says to live....you will live.

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand"

Surely we can find a better way to banish abortion than by saying we are affecting God's ability to give life....cant we? Is it man who give life or God?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You give Man way too much credit and take too much credit away from God. God cannot say Live....and man say die....... God did not fail in giving life to the million you mentioned in the OP. When God says to live....you will live.

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand"

Surely we can find a better way to banish abortion than by saying we are affecting God's ability to give life....cant we? Is it man who give life or God?

Good questions and point.

But realize "we" who trust in God are few, and have not the political power nor purpose to stop all abortions. We do pray as God directs, yes, and with good effect as God's Purpose is realized,

but the wickednesses throughout all the world/ society will not stop , it will grow exponentially (apparently) until Jesus Returns.

 

[Yekcidmij]

That's an awkward way of looking at it though,

But no less a relevant consideration.

 

[Yekcidmij]

You give Man way too much credit and take too much credit away from God.

No, I simply recognize the consequences of man's action and that man bears responsibility for his action. I find it strange that you would try to argue that man's actions don't come with consequences and that man isn't responsible for his actions. It's a weird argument on your part that doesn't come with appropriate nuance and doesn't bear out in observation.

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand

I assume you're quoting the verse in Isaiah about the restoration of Israel from exile. Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion, but feel free to elaborate.

Surely we can find a better way to banish abortion than by saying we are affecting God's ability to give life....cant we? Is it man who give life or God?

Again, I'm not sure why you swing to such an extreme of ignoring the fact that actions have consequences and people bear responsibility for their action. And I think you're mis-characterizing (on purpose, I'm almost sure) my view on God's power and knowledge. Even given God's power and knowledge, people's actions still have consequences and people still bear responsibility for their actions.

I don't think you could reasonably expect to reproduce children without adults copulating in some fashion nor could you reasonably expect copulation to never produce offspring. But, hey, apparently on your view only God gives life and man's actions aren't involved in the causal process. So no need for people to copulate for human reproduction and copulation need not ever be expected to produce offspring - only God does any of that after all. It's an absurd argument on your part because you take an extremist position of cutting people out of the the causal chain.

It may be also worth your disclosing for other readers your rather unusual position on pre-existent souls. Your unusual position is bound to have a consequential role (well, in my view your beliefs have consequences) in your views on this thread and the reader should be aware.

 

[RaymondG]

No, I simply recognize the consequences of man's action and that man bears responsibility for his action. I find it strange that you would try to argue that man's actions don't come with consequences and that man isn't responsible for his actions. It's a weird argument on your part that doesn't come with appropriate nuance and doesn't bear out in observation.

I agree, there are consequences for man's actions.....however, sending another's spirit to heaven or hell it not one of them....nor is the negation of the existence of a future mayor. This mayor would have lived no matter how many bodies died before the one he was meant for, arrived.

I actually think talking about the consequence of these action could be helpful......Equally helpful would be the conversation about the consequence of trying to force our moral standard on others and deeming them less than we are if they decide to think differently.....yes there are consequences for this as well.

I assume you're quoting the verse in Isaiah about the restoration of Israel from exile. Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion, but feel free to elaborate.

I was showing you that the Lord claims responsibility for life and Death.....therefore I find it unwise to take it from him and give it to another.

Again, I'm not sure why you swing to such an extreme of ignoring the fact that actions have consequences and people bear responsibility for their action. And I think you're mis-characterizing (on purpose, I'm almost sure) my view on God's power and knowledge. Even given God's power and knowledge, people's actions still have consequences and people still bear responsibility for their actions.

Yes I agree that you will bear the responsibility for your actions, and those that try to make other believe abortion is right, will face consequences as well. Yet neither affects God's plans..... I would find it helpful to discuss these consequences.

I don't think you could reasonably expect to reproduce children without adults copulating in some fashion nor could you reasonably expect copulation to never produce offspring. But, hey, apparently on your view only God gives life and man's actions aren't involved in the causal process. So no need for people to copulate for human reproduction and copulation need not ever be expected to produce offspring - only God does any of that after all. It's an absurd argument on your part because you take an extremist position of cutting people out of the the causal chain.

If God says you will bear a child.....you WIll bear a child, no matter what your belief is on abortion,,,,even if you are 80+ years old, even if you are a virgin. The God I serve is just that powerful....whose will is never overcome by the will of man. Period.

Now, can we move forward with supporting the bearing of children, without diminishing the power and foreknowledge of the Father?

 

[Yekcidmij]

.....however, sending another's spirit to heaven or hell it not one of them....

I wasn't arguing about where one's spirit does or doesn't go.

nor is the negation of the existence of a future mayor. This mayor would have lived no matter how many bodies died before the one he was meant for, arrived.

It seems you think that counterfactuals don't exist. There is not a way things could have been had conditions and circumstances been otherwise, there's only what is. Would this characterize your view correctly?

Equally helpful would be the conversation about the consequence of trying to force our moral standard on others and deeming them less than we are if they decide to think differently.....yes there are consequences for this as well.

This doesn't seem really relevant to the OP.

I was showing you that the Lord claims responsibility for life and Death.....therefore I find it unwise to take it from him and give it to another.

Oh, I was just reading the verse as the author intended. It's clearly about Israel's punishment in exile and subsequent restoration from Babylon. If you see something else hidden between the verses, go ahead.

Yes I agree that you will bear the responsibility for your actions, and those that try to make other believe abortion is right, will face consequences as well. Yet neither affects God's plans..... I would find it helpful to discuss these consequences.

I didn't argue that God's plans could be affected. I'm not sure where you found that.

If God says you will bear a child.....you WIll bear a child, no matter what your belief is on abortion,,,,even if you are 80+ years old, even if you are a virgin. The God I serve is just that powerful....whose will is never overcome by the will of man. Period.

Sure, and...? How many people is God personally communicating with about childbearing? Even in the Bible, God directly telling someone they will bear a child seems to be pretty rare (Sarah, Rebecah, Rachel, Samson's mother, Elizabeth, Mary). I don't have a problem with believing that if God tells someone X will happen and then indeed it's to be fully expected that X will happen. I'm not sure how this has any bearing on the OP though.

I find it completely unpersuasive that abortions wouldn't have consequences and that things wouldn't have been different had abortions not occurred. We could make comparable examples with other situations of murder. The murdering of another human being is a terrible thing that affects not only the life of the victim, but of those close to the victim and of those that would have encountered the victim in the future had the murder not occurred. It's easy to identify the ones most affected - the families for example, as they're the most visible. What's harder to quantify is what the world would have been like had the victim not been murdered. How many lives, beyond just the immediate family we can see, would have been better in some way or another had the victim been alive?

Inordinately, people contribute to human flourishing. Most people find productive ways to be members of society. Most will try to reproduce the next generation and pass on the knowledge and skills required to make them productive members of a civil society too. When you remove people from the picture, it comes at a cost. The cost is at least that it's one more mind that isn't contributing to human flourishing; it's one more mind that isn't present to contribute in a cooperative fashion with the rest of us. This cost probably isn't quantifiable, but it is probably substantially consequential.

Note, I'm not arguing that this catches God by surprise or somehow thwarts his plans. YOU are trying to characterize me that way, but it's not part of my argument or entailed by it.

 

[RaymondG]

I wasn't arguing about where one's spirit does or doesn't go.

IS the Spirit not that important to you? Maybe this is why be differ. our valuation of the flesh and spirit are opposite.

It seems you think that counterfactuals don't exist. There is not a way things could have been had conditions and circumstances been otherwise, there's only what is. Would this characterize your view correctly?

I am an anomaly. Dont think you will be able to find a box whose dimensions are a perfect fit for me.

But of course, if one stubs their toe....it is very possible that, had they walked slower, or taken another route, it would not of happened. Yet I do not believe that the action of man can stop a spirit from experiencing life, when it is meant to experience it.

If you want to move further from the flesh, I believe that we can go into the past and the future and change them....and that they both, equally, do not exist.....but I do not believe we are able to bear these types of ideas just yet....

This doesn't seem really relevant to the OP.

Thanks

Oh, I was just reading the verse as the author intended. It's clearly about Israel's punishment in exile and subsequent restoration from Babylon. If you see something else hidden between the verses, go ahead.

I can see a lot more in the letters/verses......yet if I tell you them, you will just tell me that it isnt relevant to the OP....

I didn't argue that God's plans could be affected. I'm not sure where you found that.

You implied that mayors are being eliminated from existence as a consequence of mans actions. I say, when God calls for a mayor to be born to you....you will conceive and bare them....

There is no chance....God calls for a mayor to be born, and his plan gets interrupted or discarded.

Sure, and...? How many people is God personally communicating with about childbearing? Even in the Bible, God directly telling someone they will bear a child seems to be pretty rare (Sarah, Rebecah, Rachel, Samson's mother, Elizabeth, Mary). I don't have a problem with believing that if God tells someone X will happen and then indeed it's to be fully expected that X will happen. I'm not sure how this has any bearing on the OP though.

God does not have to tell us what He plans to do before He does it. It is up to us to be still and know.....or we can go with the earthquakes and the winds.

I find it completely unpersuasive that abortions wouldn't have consequences and that things wouldn't have been different had abortions not occurred. We could make comparable examples with other situations of murder. The murdering of another human being is a terrible thing that affects not only the life of the victim, but of those close to the victim and of those that would have encountered the victim in the future had the murder not occurred. It's easy to identify the ones most affected - the families for example, as they're the most visible. What's harder to quantify is what the world would have been like had the victim not been murdered. How many lives, beyond just the immediate family we can see, would have been better in some way or another had the victim been alive?

This is why I was confused when you brought up extremes in relationship to my words. It is a common narrative, among those against freedom to make a choice, to liken the murder of a child in the playground to a woman who took a morning after pill. I happen to find this extreme..... Yet now enters murder into the conversation......

I am against abortion......yet I see a difference in the effect of murdering a father and husband, and removing a recently fertilized egg. I would not do either....but find it extreme to say that this is an apples to apples comparision.

Think about this......For every 1million abortions, there are 3million spontaneous abortions/miscarriages. Have you ever given thought to the lawyers and doctors and mayors that are "lost" in the most prevalent abortion there is?

Inordinately, people contribute to human flourishing. Most people find productive ways to be members of society. Most will try to reproduce the next generation and pass on the knowledge and skills required to make them productive members of a civil society too. When you remove people from the picture, it comes at a cost. The cost is at least that it's one more mind that isn't contributing to human flourishing; it's one more mind that isn't present to contribute in a cooperative fashion with the rest of us. This cost probably isn't quantifiable, but it is probably substantially consequential.

Again, tell me the cost of the spontaneous abortion. And do you really believe that Most will try to reproduce the next generation?

I believe there are consequences to every action.....I just believe that the removal of ones ability to experience life, it not one of them......It only delays ones entry into the world......and for one outside of time....the delay is not as we see it. But I guess this would depend on if we believe that Men create the spirit as well, at conception.