The units of Specified Complexity

Radagast

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Okay. How many bits does a one kilogram load of aluminium shaped into a Platonic cube have?

That question is ill-posed. Complexity relates to the description of the object (or, for biological objects, to the DNA).

Taking your description verbatim, I'd say less than 120 or so bits. Calculating Kolmogorov complexities is hard.
 
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Larniavc

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That question is ill-posed. Complexity relates to the description of the object (or, for biological objects, to the DNA).

Taking your description verbatim, I'd say less than 120 or so bits. Calculating Kolmogorov complexities is hard.
So can you use bits to tell if something is irreducibly complex?
 
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Radagast

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So can you use bits to tell if something is irreducibly complex?

No, because (like I said), the ID guys haven't actually done the math.

In principle, however, it should be possible to use the idea of complexity to find the maximum possible rate of evolution (in bits per year).
 
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juvenissun

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Day life is measured in days.

Obviously.

But I’m asking about the units of measurement of specified complexity: not time.

So, you should specify what is the particular nature of the complexity. For example, what is the special complexity in your daily life? It could be time, it could also be the amount of food you consumed. Knowing that, then we can start to quantify it.
 
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Larniavc

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So, you should specify what is the particular nature of the complexity. For example, what is the special complexity in your daily life? It could be time, it could also be the amount of food you consumed. Knowing that, then we can start to quantify it.
The value of specified complexity that would enable one to point at an object and say ‘that object has sufficient specified complexity that it was definitely designed’.

Say, aren’t you the guy who thinks rocks are alive?
 
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juvenissun

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The value of specified complexity that would enable one to point at an object and say ‘that object has sufficient specified complexity that it was definitely designed’.

Say, aren’t you the guy who thinks rocks are alive?

The description of a system with "specified complexity" should be product-oriented. The unit should be applied to the product. You point out the complex system and identify its main function, then you can quantify it with a unit. Before doing that, you do not have a thing to measure.

What is the product or the function of your "specified complexity"?
 
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Larniavc

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The description of a system with "specified complexity" should be product-oriented. The unit should be applied to the product. You point out the complex system and identify its main function, then you can quantify it with a unit. Before doing that, you do not have a thing to measure.

What is the product or the function of your "specified complexity"?
I see. So, that would be impossible to ever tell if a living organism (and plants, but not rocks) is too complex to have evolved.

You’ve done the best take down of ID I’ve seen in a long time.

Kudos!
 
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juvenissun

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I see. So, that would be impossible to ever tell if a living organism (and plants, but not rocks) is too complex to have evolved.

You’ve done the best take down of ID I’ve seen in a long time.

Kudos!

I don't know much about the ID argument. I just respond to your question in the OP.

What should be the unit in order to tell if you have evolved? (sounds like a very stupid question)
 
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Larniavc

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I don't know much about the ID argument. I just respond to your question in the OP.

What should be the unit in order to tell if you have evolved? (sounds like a very stupid question)
That is the very crotch of the issue.

Specified complexity does not appear to have any units of measurement.

Absent that it becomes ‘it looks too complicated to have evolved’ and is basically and argument from incredulity.

You simply demolished it in such a succinct and easy to understand way that I thought it should be stated; we don’t agree on much so it’s nice to finally be on the same side.
 
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juvenissun

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That is the very crotch of the issue.

Specified complexity does not appear to have any units of measurement.

Absent that it becomes ‘it looks too complicated to have evolved’ and is basically and argument from incredulity.

You simply demolished it in such a succinct and easy to understand way that I thought it should be stated; we don’t agree on much so it’s nice to finally be on the same side.

OK, you want to measure "complexity" in order to evaluate the degree of evolution. But since you don't know how to measure, so you think "too complicated" can not be quantified. Thus evolution can not be evaluated by the "degree of complexity". Right?

And you do not see the problem about the logic of this argument?
 
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HitchSlap

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I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. As far as I can tell, God is presenting to each of us a kind of Rorschach Test. Some people see meaning in the patterns that ripple through our universe ... and many don't.

Done.
Actually, some people understand natural processes, and many don't.
 
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Larniavc

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OK, you want to measure "complexity" in order to evaluate the degree of evolution.
No, that’s not what I want.

I want the units of measurement that specified complexity is measured in.

If you don’t have an answer please stop trying to not answer it is as many words as you can think.

But you have done me a massive service by explaining how Intelligent Design cannot possibly be correct so I thank you for that.
 
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Radagast

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That is the very crotch of the issue.

Crux of the issue, you mean.

Absent that it becomes ‘it looks too complicated to have evolved’ and is basically and argument from incredulity.

Not quite: the ID literature makes a (somewhat loose) mathematical argument based on probability.
 
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juvenissun

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No, that’s not what I want.

I want the units of measurement that specified complexity is measured in.

Why do you want to know the unit if you do not want to do measurement?

Imbedded logic problem. Several levels of logic problem.
 
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Larniavc

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Not quite: the ID literature makes a (somewhat loose) mathematical argument based on probability.
But that IS the crotch of the issue, though.

The argument of probability simple boils down to ‘even though I cannot demonstrate a zero probability of evolution, my feels say that there IS a zero probability of evolution’.
 
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Larniavc

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Why do you want to know the unit if you do not want to do measurement?

Imbedded logic problem. Several levels of logic problem.
I can’t do the measurements until I know the units of measurement to use.

Me: “how brown is that oak tree?”
You: “what units of measurement of brown do you want that in?”
Me: “not telling”
You: “um, 8?”

Do you see, now?
 
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juvenissun

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I can’t do the measurements until I know the units of measurement to use.

Me: “how brown is that oak tree?”
You: “what units of measurement of brown do you want that in?”
Me: “not telling”
You: “um, 8?”

Do you see, now?

It seems that if a unit is given, then you can do the measurement. Right?
What if I told you a wrong one? Can you tell it is a wrong one? How could you?

OK, the unit is kilometer. Then?
 
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Larniavc

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It seems that if a unit is given, then you can do the measurement. Right?
What if I told you a wrong one? Can you tell it is a wrong one? How could you?

OK, the unit is kilometer. Then?
Excellent, now we’re cooking on gas!

How many kilometres of specified complexity does it require to define something as designed?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It seems that if a unit is given, then you can do the measurement. Right?
What if I told you a wrong one? Can you tell it is a wrong one? How could you?

OK, the unit is kilometer. Then?
Clearly that unit is inappropriate. If someone devises a measurement, e.g. specified complexity, the burden is on them to explain how it is done, in what units it is measured, and what those units mean. Without meaningful units it is not a measure of anything.
 
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juvenissun

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Excellent, now we’re cooking on gas!

How many kilometres of specified complexity does it require to define something as designed?

Now, I will change the unit to kilogram, or cubic feet, or hour. Are you going to repeat the question three more times with each unit? Or, I would say, no unit, then how would you rephrase your question?

Nobody else asked the question in the OP but you. If no answer could be fit into the question, then what is the meaning of that illogical question at the beginning?
 
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