The United States does not deserve our loyalty

[Francis Drake]

There exists no rights except that which is given to us by the Lord our God. Man cannot grant rights, as man cannot enforce them in and of himself. It is the Lord our God who enforces a right, to whom belongs all power and glory forever and ever. And such a right is granted by the Father, and was enforced at such a price. John 1:12 1 Corinthians 6:20

Nonsense.
The Lord handed dominion to man in the garden.
Ever since then man has made all sorts of good and bad decisions.
Man has every authority to grant rights whether good or bad.
A prime example of man granting rights was when Israel under Joshua granted rights to the Gibeonites. This was not God's primary will, but He insisted on Israel honouring it.

Let us all remember that we see only in part, whereas God sees in full. 1 Corinthians 13:12

And you are not even seeing in part Sam!

And in light of God's perfect knowledge and coming Kingdom, there doesn't seem to be such a premium placed upon rights, which are here today and gone tomorrow.

I suggest you take note of the premium Paul placed on his rights as a Roman citizen. He made full use of it when necessary to protect himself from his Jewish accusers and to stop himself being beaten by the Roman guards in Jerusalem.

Perhaps this is why Paul, rather than condemning slavery, urged slaves to be a testimony to their masters. Ephesians 6:5-9

You quote scripture when it suits you, but ignore it when it proves you wrong.-
Rom13v1Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Why are you not subject to the ruling authorities?
Why are rebelling against them?
According to Paul, you are bringing judgement on yourself!

It is good that we can proclaim the Gospel freely, but it will be far, far better for all of us when proclaiming our Lord Jesus Christ is accompanied by the forfeiture of our life.

If being killed is a good thing, why is so much of scripture devoted to saving Israel from its enemies?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

In fact, I give my loyalty to Russia over the United States. I am a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus walked this earth - people expected Him to oppose the Roman occupation. He didn't. His Kingdom is not of this world.

The fact of the matter is that the United States, and the west in general, is full of wickedness. The leaders of these lands have allowed all sorts of degeneracy to have voice in western lands. The culture is based around self. Everything is centered around self.

Russians look at what is happening in the west and shake their heads. Someone please tell me why, as a Christian, I should give my loyalty to a country that glorifies men dressing up as women? Why should I give my loyalty to a country that glorifies identity and politics of self? Why should I, as a Christian, give my loyalty to a country which produces 99% of the world's smut via the "entertainment industry"? Why should I give my loyalty to a country which bullies the rest of the world and has demonstrated it is not a friend of Christians in other lands?

Are you going to tell me that when the Christians of other lands are being persecuted and suffer because of the actions of this country, I am to give my loyalty to this country instead of them? When Palestinian Christians cry out against the USA - I am to side with the USA? When Christians are being slaughtered in Muslim lands but we do nothing to help them - instead helping the Muslim slaughterers, I am to bless these United States?

I am to give my loyalty to a country which is full of wickedness and be against a country like Russia which is radically traditionalist?

I would honestly rather eat dirt than support the USA over Russia.

Russia is the good guy. America? The bad guy. That's why I support Putin over the USA.

I am a Christian.

Patriotism is very dangerous when the object of one's loyalty is abominable. Any loyalty to the USA should be based on merit. The reason why I don't support this country is because it's wickedness has risen too high and is offensive. I am loyal to Jesus.

If America becomes correct, then I will give my loyalty to America. Right now America is the greater evil and Russia is the lesser. I see no reason as a Christian why this country is deserving of any loyalty whatsoever.

Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Romans 13:7

Because you are required to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, Titus 3:1. And to render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. Sounds like Jesus expects us to live within the confines of our earthly government unless and until it requires us to violate the Word of God.

 

[Francis Drake]

You have given Russia a clean bill of health when its obvious you know very little.

You condemn America for many things, but they are things we find everywhere else in the world, and in many nations infinitely worse.

There are certainly many evils in America, but why are you running instead of doing what the Lord commands of you, ie. stand and fight for your country? Even I pray for you! (I speak as a Brit.)

 

[Loren T.]

In fact, I give my loyalty to Russia over the United States. I am a Christian, and a follower of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus walked this earth - people expected Him to oppose the Roman occupation. He didn't. His Kingdom is not of this world.

The fact of the matter is that the United States, and the west in general, is full of wickedness. The leaders of these lands have allowed all sorts of degeneracy to have voice in western lands. The culture is based around self. Everything is centered around self.

Russians look at what is happening in the west and shake their heads. Someone please tell me why, as a Christian, I should give my loyalty to a country that glorifies men dressing up as women? Why should I give my loyalty to a country that glorifies identity and politics of self? Why should I, as a Christian, give my loyalty to a country which produces 99% of the world's smut via the "entertainment industry"? Why should I give my loyalty to a country which bullies the rest of the world and has demonstrated it is not a friend of Christians in other lands?

Are you going to tell me that when the Christians of other lands are being persecuted and suffer because of the actions of this country, I am to give my loyalty to this country instead of them? When Palestinian Christians cry out against the USA - I am to side with the USA? When Christians are being slaughtered in Muslim lands but we do nothing to help them - instead helping the Muslim slaughterers, I am to bless these United States?

I am to give my loyalty to a country which is full of wickedness and be against a country like Russia which is radically traditionalist?

I would honestly rather eat dirt than support the USA over Russia.

Russia is the good guy. America? The bad guy. That's why I support Putin over the USA.

I am a Christian.

Patriotism is very dangerous when the object of one's loyalty is abominable. Any loyalty to the USA should be based on merit. The reason why I don't support this country is because it's wickedness has risen too high and is offensive. I am loyal to Jesus.

If America becomes correct, then I will give my loyalty to America. Right now America is the greater evil and Russia is the lesser. I see no reason as a Christian why this country is deserving of any loyalty whatsoever.

America is an ideal. Patriotism is not about giving your loyalty to the president or elected officials, or condoning everything that goes on in your country. It's about supporting the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In other words, freedom. If you think you're going to find this in Russia you're sadly mistaken.

 

[No Swansong]

Do you think it's Christian to assassinate people and make them disappear?

I seriously doubt the U.S. has clean hands in this regard.

 

[No Swansong]

You have given Russia a clean bill of health when its obvious you know very little.

You condemn America for many things, but they are things we find everywhere else in the world, and in many nations infinitely worse.

There are certainly many evils in America, but why are you running instead of doing what the Lord commands of you, ie. stand and fight for your country? Even I pray for you! (I speak as a Brit.)

Where in scripture is one commanded by the Lord to "stand and fight for your country?"

 

[Francis Drake]

Where in scripture is one commanded by the Lord to "stand and fight for your country?"

I am talking about spiritual warfare for your country, because whether you know it or not, we are at war, spiritual war that produces physical life or death.

If Christians can't be bothered to fight, then they deserve to live under Satan's dominion because that is the guaranteed future for complacent and indifferent Christians.

Judah was taken into captivity in Babylon for 70 years and was commanded by the Lord to pray for Babylon. Do you not think that the same applies for wherever we live?​

Jeremiah29v7Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them, declares the Lord.”

Those who claim we should reject fighting in prayer for our nation are prophesying lies.

 

[Francis Drake]

I seriously doubt the U.S. has clean hands in this regard.

In that respect, no nation has clean hands.

 

[Not David]

I seriously doubt the U.S. has clean hands in this regard.

I agree but I was answering to a comment that "Human rights" are made up when it was mentioned Russia has a bad record of those.

 

[Humble me Lord]

Two questions my friend. Do you believe there are exceptions to this?

Second question does this only apply to some leaders or to all leaders?

Hello brother,
Exceptions, no. Of course if the leader tries to make you do something against God, then that would be an exception. It's the same hierarchy God ordains in the family. It would be the same at your work, yes you obey your boss, unless he tries to make you do something against God's commands.

 

[No Swansong]

I am talking about spiritual warfare for your country, because whether you know it or not, we are at war, spiritual war that produces physical life or death.

If Christians can't be bothered to fight, then they deserve to live under Satan's dominion because that is the guaranteed future for complacent and indifferent Christians.

Judah was taken into captivity in Babylon for 70 years and was commanded by the Lord to pray for Babylon. Do you not think that the same applies for wherever we live?​

Jeremiah29v7Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8Yes, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them, declares the Lord.”

Those who claim we should reject fighting in prayer for our nation are prophesying lies.

Thank you for the clarification my friend.

 

[No Swansong]

In that respect, no nation has clean hands.

Sadly true friend.

 

[No Swansong]

Hello brother,
Exceptions, no. Of course if the leader tries to make you do something against God, then that would be an exception. It's the same hierarchy God ordains in the family. It would be the same at your work, yes you obey your boss, unless he tries to make you do something against God's commands.

Thank you brother for clarifying your thoughts.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The deepest concern was reserved for the periodic unsolved assassinations of leading opposition politicians, lawmakers, journalists, and critics of the government, at home and sometimes abroad: USA and UK intelligence services believe Russian government and secret services are behind at least fourteen targeted killingson British soil.[38]

This was a clear and increasingly blatant violation of the basic right to life. The impunity for those who committed these acts, or ordered their commission, was a violation of the right to justice and to a fair trial.

The victims in these high-profile cases died in various ways.

Some were poisoned as seems to have been the case with the unexplained allergy that killed journalist Yuri Schekochikhin in 2003.[39] It was certainly the cause of FSB fugitive Alexander Litvinenko who was poisoned with polonium by FSB agents in London in 2006.

Some were shot dead in the classic stairwell contract killings used to settle scores in the murky new business world of post-Soviet Russia. Such victims included the liberal politician and army officer (reserves) Sergei Yushenkov in April 2003,[40] and the renowned journalist Anna Politkovskaya on 7 October 2006, who were both killed in Moscow.[41] The 2008 presidential candidate and veteran perestroika politician Galina Starovoitova was shot dead in St Petersburg in 2007 in the entrance to her apartment building.[42]. Some were openly gunned down on the streets of central Moscow: in broad daylight as was the case in January 2010 of anti-fascist activists, lawyer Stanislav Markelov and trainee journalist Anastasia Baburova; or within a short distance of the Kremlin itself, where the leading opposition politician Boris Nemtsov was shot dead in February 2015.

Some died after being severely beaten in an imitation of street crime. This seems to have been the case in 2006 of journalist Nikolai Andruschenko,[43] who covered Chechnya.......

Assassinations occur in every other country as well, including the United States. Assassinations in the United States are always blamed on a lone nut. Assassinations in Russia are always blamed on the government. Why the double standard?

The Constitution of Russia forbids arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment. Chapter 2, Article 21 of the constitution states, "No one may be subjected to torture, violence or any other harsh or humiliating treatment or punishment."[72][73] However in practice Russian police, Federal Security Service[74] and prison and jail guards are regularly observed practicing torture with impunity - including beatings with many different types of batons, sticks and truncheons, water battles, sacks with sand etc, the "Elephant Method" which is beating a victim wearing a gas mask with cut airflow and the "Supermarket Method" which is the same but with a plastic bag on head, electric shocks including to genitals and ears (known as "Phone call to Putin"), binding in stress positions, cigarette burns,[75] needles and electric needless hammered under nails[76], prolonged suspension, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, rape, penetration with foreign objects, asphyxiation - in interrogating arrested suspects.[76][15][19][20][77] Another torture method is the "Television" which involves forcing the victim to stand in a mid-squat with extended arms in front of them holding a stool or even two stools, with the seat facing them. Former serviceman Andrei Sychev had to have both legs and genitals amputated after this torture due to gangrene caused by cut bloodflow. Other torture methods include the "Rack" or "Stretch" which involves hanging a victim on hands tied behind the back, the "Refrigerator" which involves subjecting a naked victim sometimes doused in cold water to subzero temperatures, the "Furnace" where the victim is left in heat in a small space and "Chinese torture" where the feet of the victim laying on a tabletop are beaten with clubs. In 2000, human rights Ombudsman Oleg Mironov estimated that 50% of prisoners with whom he spoke claimed to have been tortured. Amnesty International reported that Russian military forces in Chechnya engage in torture.[72]

The Russian Constitution, as you note, forbids torture, so insofar as it does happen, happens in violation of Russian law, just as it happens in violation of the laws of Western countries when it occurs there. Of course, Russian authorities act in violation of the law more frequently - corruption is still widespread. However if that's truly a concern, then there is cause to be pleased with the direction Russia is moving; it was far worse under Yeltsin. Ironically, on the occasions that Putin has cracked down on corruption, such as in the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, he gets condemned for that too...

No, and the subtle insult of the Left as communists is noted. It is not okay.

Everything you cited, and worse, occurred during the Soviet Union, yet where was anything approaching the hostility we see toward free Russia today? Other than some sort of ethnic animus against the Russian people simply for being Russians, what else could explain it?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I read about half of the OP and none of the responses... just an FYI.

I don't think America is perfect, I have issues with foreign policy for real (I'm sure everyone expected that one from me though.. lol) but there are things need said in response to this.

First. Sin. We are the light of Christ to the world. Homosexuals do not stand as the only people that can't be saved - no. Anyone can be saved, even whoever we consider the worst of society...

God saved us, not because we were righteous, but because we were sinners. I'm no better than a homosexual, just a different sin.. okay, a lot of different sins. (I was Muslim after all)

We can't be a light of Christ if we hide from sinners and never show them who Christ is. So, we need to have proximity to those sinners we want to see come to the reconciliation to God through Christ Jesus.

Also, Russia kills Christians like me.. maybe you too. Are you sure you want to put that faith to test right now, for no reason other than you want to run away like Jonah from telling people who need Christ about Christ? That's a little sad.. (although I cant judge you on this point... I'm just pointing it out in case you've not considered it)

Yes, there are some things about America can be better - we can't change it when our allegiance is to somewhere else. The good thing is that we still have some semblance of freedom here, and can make a difference through our actions if nothing else.

Also we trust in God. He says we submit to the authorities because they were appointed by God. Period. Good, bad or ugly, whatever government we are dealing with is either here for judgement or our good. Either way we trust and believe in HIM. As you said, no matter where we live our citizenship is in the Kingdom of God.

Okay.. I'll pray for you. God bless.

 

[Newtheran]

Rom13v1Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

A lot of people misapply verses like Roman 13 as they would apply in a monarchy to a democracy. In a democracy, WE are the governing authorities. Elected officials are not our rulers, they are our employees...and like employees, they can be fired when we feel that they are doing an improper or inadequate job.

 

[Kalevalatar]

The OP has fallen for Kremlin's propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

 

[No Swansong]

A lot of people misapply verses like Roman 13 as they would apply in a monarchy to a democracy. In a democracy, WE are the governing authorities. Elected officials are not our rulers, they are our employees...and like employees, they can be fired when we feel that they are doing an improper or inadequate job.

My friend I find that I occasionally disagree with you, however on this we are in complete agreement.

 

[Hazelelponi]

A lot of people misapply verses like Roman 13 as they would apply in a monarchy to a democracy. In a democracy, WE are the governing authorities. Elected officials are not our rulers, they are our employees...and like employees, they can be fired when we feel that they are doing an improper or inadequate job.

We vote, but it's not always "our guy" in office. It's not always the laws we would like, or that we think is right.

We still have to obey the law, and be upstanding in society and show Christ through our actions.

The only time we would stand against following law is when we are physically being forced to go against the laws of God, and right now, we are still free to worship and live according to conscious.

 

[Francis Drake]

A lot of people misapply verses like Roman 13 as they would apply in a monarchy to a democracy. In a democracy, WE are the governing authorities. Elected officials are not our rulers, they are our employees...and like employees, they can be fired when we feel that they are doing an improper or inadequate job.

You haven't thought this out have you?
Try firing the policeman who stops you for speeding.
Try firing the tax man who demands your money.
Let the soldier try firing his general when he doesn't like his orders.
Try firing the senator who passes a law you don't like.
Try firing the president who sends you to Vietnam or Iraq.
Whether public employees or elected officials, they are all paid by you, but rule over you in one way or another.