The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Kermos]

@Soyeong @timothyu @Blade @Michael Collum @IoanC @Frank Sophia @Strong in Him @Diamond7 @fhansen @childeye 2 @Stephen3141 @FutureAndAHope

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.

Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says ""you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and ""I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

By God's grace, for God's glory!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

Ok. Thank you for your opinion.

The Truth (John 14:6) is proclaimed in the following, and all of this is linguistically, logically, and Spiritually accurate.

The point of this part of the discourse is that "falling away from the faith" is a different thing than "falling out from the faith", please see the keywords "away" versus "out".

To "fall away" from a thing indicates an ambiguous initial starting point for the one "falling away" unless an explicit starting point is indicated. For example:

The soldier was investigating an incident beyond the perimeter of the base fence when the enemy missile exploded at the base commissary with a blast so strong that the shock wave even caused the soldier to fall away from the base but with barely a scratch.
​

To "fall out" from a thing indicates an absolute initial starting point for the one "falling out" of which the starting point is "in" the thing. For example:

In his haste to race for cover, the soldier did accidentally fall out of the helicopter that landed at the edge of town, but his low profile kept him from injury by the enemies firestorm.
​

"Falling away from the faith" occurs variously in Scripture, such as "the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1) and "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12, this is related) and "And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another" (Matthew 24:10, this is related).

"Falling out from the faith" is absent from Scripture, so there are no citations.

"Falling away from the faith" Scripturally has an absolute initial starting point for the one "falling away" that is applicable to all of Scripture because the Apostle John wrote "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19), so the starting point for the one "falling away" is faithlessness (no faith/belief in Christ Jesus) - see also "unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12)!

"Falling out from the faith" is impossible for believers because the living God says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 10:27-30), so we, who God imparted faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), are securely, permanently, and lovingly in the Hand of the Holy Living God!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

"Free will" is redundant in that if we have a will, then we have the freedom to act autonomously to make our own decisions free from the control of others, so even you saying that we have a self-will is admitting that we have a free will. If someone tells us to do something, then we are not compelled to do that regardless of whether or not it is our will to do otherwise, but rather we have the freedom to choose whether or not to do that, so we have free will.

You say "we have the freedom to act autonomously to make our own decisions free from the control of others", but your purported free-will is not free from others because you yourself are a "other" for your purported free-will. This means your will is not free (see the discourse about "host" in the original post).

Your will is one with yourself; therefore, see "self" in yourself, and you will see that you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), not an illusionary free-will (Philemon 1:14), but truly a self-will driven by your desires.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[fhansen]

The Truth (John 14:6) is proclaimed in the following, and all of this is linguistically, logically, and Spiritually accurate.

The point of this part of the discourse is that "falling away from the faith" is a different thing than "falling out from the faith", please see the keywords "away" versus "out".

To "fall away" from a thing indicates an ambiguous initial starting point for the one "falling away" unless an explicit starting point is indicated. For example:

​

The soldier was investigating an incident beyond the perimeter of the base fence when the enemy missile exploded at the base commissary with a blast so strong that the shock wave even caused the soldier to fall away from the base but with barely a scratch.​

​

To "fall out" from a thing indicates an absolute initial starting point for the one "falling out" of which the starting point is "in" the thing. For example:

​

In his haste to race for cover, the soldier did accidentally fall out of the helicopter that landed at the edge of town, but his low profile kept him from injury by the enemies firestorm.​

​

"Falling away from the faith" occurs variously in Scripture, such as "the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1) and "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12, this is related) and "And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another" (Matthew 24:10, this is related).

"Falling out from the faith" is absent from Scripture, so there are no citations.

"Falling away from the faith" Scripturally has an absolute initial starting point for the one "falling away" that is applicable to all of Scripture because the Apostle John wrote "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19), so the starting point for the one "falling away" is faithlessness (no faith/belief in Christ Jesus) - see also "unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12)!

"Falling out from the faith" is impossible for believers because the living God says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 10:27-30), so we, who God imparted faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), are securely, permanently, and lovingly in the Hand of the Holy Living God!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Why argue the point? Why not just comfort yourself in your apparent presumption that you're numbered among the elect, by Gods sovereign decree, and that everyone else is either likewise so numbered, or not, it's all up to God anyway

 

[Soyeong]

You say "we have the freedom to act autonomously to make our own decisions free from the control of others", but your purported free-will is not free from others because you yourself are a "other" for your purported free-will. This means your will is not free (see the discourse about "host" in the original post).

Your will is one with yourself; therefore, see "self" in yourself, and you will see that you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), not an illusionary free-will (Philemon 1:14), but truly a self-will driven by your desires.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

When people speak in support of us having free will, we are speaking about having a will that is free from the control of others, not free from the our own control. I have never seen someone who speaks in support of us having a free will that its free from our own control, so you are attacking a position that I have never seen anyone hold and you are incorrect labeling what you are attack as being free will while neglecting to address what the people who believe in free will actually believe. Having a self-will is a will that is free from the control of others, so by saying that we have a self-will you are admitting that we have a free will in the sense those those who believe that we have free will considered ourselves to have, though not in accordance with your complete misunderstanding of what it meant by those who believe in free will.

 

[childeye 2]

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

This is not the term "free will" (an adjective + noun) being used in Philemon 1:14. It is the term "freewill" (an adverb) meaning "voluntarily". There does remain the linguistically valid description of a free will here below seen as a positive connotation, a will that is free from sin:

The positive connotation of a free will:
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The negative connotation of a free will:
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

John 8:32​

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.​

 

[childeye 2]

When people speak in support of us having free will, we are speaking about having a will that is free from the control of others,

I get what you're saying above, you're referring to freedom of action. Your intention is to express that people are responsible for their actions. But in spiritual terms, it is misleading in the moral/immoral sense, since it omits God's Word and The Holy Spirit of Truth as our only moral guide Whose gifts include self-control. Meanwhile and contrary to the assertion that we are in control of ourselves and are not subject to anyone else, Jesus is preaching that the Truth will set you free and he is alluding to the will being a slave to sin due to an ignorance of this Truth that is the knowledge of God. Moreover, scripture corroborates that same sentiment here:

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The positive connotation of a free will:
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The negative connotation of a free will:
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

John 8:32​

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.​

All of these scriptures are showing there is only one truly free will, and that is the one quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

I get what you're saying above. But it is misleading in the moral/immoral sense. Meanwhile and contrary to that assertion that we are in control of ourselves when we sin, Jesus is preaching the Truth will set you free and he is alluding to the will being a slave to sin due to an ignorance of this Truth. Moreover, scripture corroborates that sentiment here:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of it that puts us into slavery while the truth sets us free. Our actions have momentum, so that the more times that we make a decision to obey or disobey God's law the easier that it becomes to make that decision again, which is why we become enslaved to our habits and it is difficult to break them, but that does not mean that we choose to break them and form different habits in accordance with having free will. In other words we can still choose to heed the Gospel message, repent of our sins, and become slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:19-23).

 

[childeye 2]

In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of it that puts us into slavery while the truth sets us free. Our actions have momentum, so that the more times that we make a decision to obey or disobey God's law the easier that it becomes to make that decision again, which is why we become enslaved to our habits and it is difficult to break them, but that does not mean that we choose to break them and form different habits in accordance with having free will. In other words we can still choose to heed the Gospel message, repent of our sins, and become slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:19-23).

That's a better articulation, but it's still not the Gospel of Christ. The term "free will" above qualifies as a will in a state of equivocation between two masters, which scripture calls doublemindedness. Where is that true repentance? I don't believe it's based on an unstable mental disability that equivocates back and forth, but rather it is found in a heartfelt godly sorrow.

Moreover, the righteousness of God revealed in the Christ through the power of the cross is forgiveness with a pure heart in bearing with the carnal weakness of others with regards to acknowledging our own weakness. In other words, the self-sacrificing brotherly love we experience in Christ, is God's Spirit of righteousness without hypocrisy, which comes by grace through faith and leads us to repentance.

As pertains to the power of the cross, this scripture comes to mind:

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

So, let me ask you this: Is it fair to say we must repent from thinking anyone can repent at any time without the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin? To rephrase: Isn't it true that godly sorrow is not a voluntary decision?

 

[Kermos]

Why should we beware? Be-ware implies choice but according to you we have none. The entire reason that believers were constantly enjoined to be vigilant, to strive, to persevere, to be holy, to remain faithful, to remain in Christ, to refrain from sin, was precisely because of the possibility of their not doing so.

You are linguistically, logically, and Spiritually dead wrong because "beware" implies danger, and "beware" explicitly denotes "be aware of the situation" - see "beware" is integral to "be aware"; moreover, no hint of choice is in "beware" because "Beware, you two" is a command. You confuse an imperative (command) with an interrogative (question).

We people in Christ practice the Truth (John 14:6) of obeying all these blessings of God "the commands to be vigilant, to strive, to persevere, to be holy, to remain faithful, to remain in Christ, to refrain from sin" because the Christ of us Christians says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21) and "I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

Both you and @Soyeong think you cause yourself to do all these wonderful blessings of God according to your own initiative, that is, you doing these things apart from Lord Jesus, yet the Word of God is thus "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57); therefore, you reject the Word of God!

God's Perseverance Of The Saints​

These words of Lord Jesus "let no man separate" (Mark 10:6-9) refer to God's imparted endurance of believers to the end (Matthew 10:22).

Jesus speaks of this persistence of the holy ones with "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

And, the Lord includes all believers in all time for He says "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one Pastor" (John 10:16).

Therefore, Lord Jesus says of His "sheep" (John 10:27) and His "other sheep" (John 10:16) that "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27).

And followers of the Way (John 14:6) believe Lord Jesus for He is the Word of God (John 1:14).

When God promises "no man" (Mark 10:6-9) or "no one" (John 10:27-30), then God means it!

Behold, testimony of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

NOW, BACK TO THE POST OF WHICH YOU WICKEDLY DELETED SO VERY MUCH WORD OF GOD!!!

There is no scripture that states man was imparted free-will; therefore, anyone who thinks man has a free-will does not believe the Word of God.

You @fhansen (by your thumbs up of @FutureAndAHope's post) think "It also pays to look" outside the Word of God, yet the Word of God says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).

@fhansen, you beware because that Irenaeus translation by Philip Schaff et al (1819-1893) is potentially corrupt because only fragrants of the original Greek exists, but, hey, you showed no repentance for your error of endorsing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) when you replied to the post that shows you hold up Schaff's translation as your authoritative source for your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) that man has a free-will.

Man cannot free-will choose God because the Word of God says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[fhansen]

"Beware, you two" is a command.

Sorry, "beware" is a warning-and an obvious one. You should stop twisting Scripture, logic, and language to fit an erroneous theology.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

As for my contribution, free will and predeterminism is a false dichotomy.

All this worship of a killer whale is absurd anyway.

 

[Kermos]

A friendly semantic/language question or issue -- I think that by 'free will' the intended meaning is to distinguish from the contrasting idea that God might control (subtly) our thoughts/choices, and the idea is that instead of manipulating us like puppets, controlling us, that God allows us to make our own choices. So, a phrase was coined to convey that idea: that our will is allowed to operate without being controlled.

So, when God works in us to actually change us and help us:

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

Philippians 2:13 - Shining as Stars

For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

biblehub.com

This is because we are asking Him to do so.
For example, in the daily prayer in Matthew 6, we make this request in effect in some degree I think, that He help us inside our minds -- "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".

So, the metaphor is like a Parent taking a child's hand and leading them.

The child willingly grasps the Parent's hand and follows them. (ideally)

So, we have the 'free' will -- choice -- to follow or to rebell, and so on.

Let's examine your dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

You abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when you think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at your dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "being's free-will is uncontrolled by Being".

Your foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (you) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

Your level of abstraction fails because you have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so you are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, your faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but you redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, your linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, your "will" is not free from all beings because your "will" is part of yourself, Halbhh. See the word "self" in the word "yourself", and "self" is key because by definition you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per your own proclamation that your "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that you are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

As demonstrated above, your concept of "free-will", that you free-willians "coined", is linguistically broken, illogical, and ungodly.

You cannot free-will choose Jesus because Lord Jesus says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

This is post 1 of a multi part response to your post, and this post covers much of your first paragraph.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Halbhh]

Let's examine your dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God"

You can't do that because first: I did not write exactly that -- and it's a prejudicial wording that paints onto me something quite significantly different from what I said. ( and of course none of us have have mental telepathy/mind reading abilities, so we cannot accurately guess at other people's thoughts over the internet, so you should not guess at mine, etc.).

For example, God created us....which instantly means our 'free will' operates as He intended, etc. So, someone that would dare to say "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" is probably not having much faith. So, it turns out to be a slander to ascribe that to me, as if I said it. See the problem? (you've falsely, slanderously painted me as likely atheist, based on a fabricated quote)

(in contrast, if you had written a key different statement, like simply: "free will is uncontrolled by God" -- while clunky and not well written, and also not something I wrote, at least it would not paint me as an atheist...and would not have been a such a serious slander then...but merely an not-accurate enough representation)

It's not good for anyone to make up a quote with a certain wording another person didn't actually write and and then put it in quotation marks and ascribe it to that person, even if it seemed to you a reasonable guess.

What would be better then?

You could ask me what I think.... That's a loving thing to do in such a situation, where you fear someone has a huge flaw in their thinking, but wish to avoid slandering them.

Asking would better obey Matthew 7:12, wouldn't it?

 

[Halbhh]

Let's examine your dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

You abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when you think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at your dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "being's free-will is uncontrolled by Being".

Your foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (you) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

Your level of abstraction fails because you have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so you are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, your faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but you redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, your linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, your "will" is not free from all beings because your "will" is part of yourself, Halbhh. See the word "self" in the word "yourself", and "self" is key because by definition you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per your own proclamation that your "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that you are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

As demonstrated above, your concept of "free-will", that you free-willians "coined", is linguistically broken, illogical, and ungodly.

You cannot free-will choose Jesus because Lord Jesus says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people, not man choosing God, but truly God choosing man.
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the glorious blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

This is post 1 of a multi part response to your post, and this post covers much of your first paragraph.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

In addition to guessing wrongly about what I said, and making up a quote that I didn't say and guessing wrongly at my attitude, etc.....it still occurs to me you might only be trying to just convey

The most simple, basic good thing, which I've preached to others in various ways hundreds of times, and practice daily....:

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

Proverbs 3 NIV

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8 - English Standard Version

Life in the Spirit - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the...

www.biblegateway.com

So, if that's all you really meant to try to say, then that's great, and we can 100% agree.

(I hope that's the case, or if it is not, you will agree another day on this wonderful scripture.)

So, when people talk of 'free will' they don't mean it's good to disobey God. They mean that instead of our lives being entire predetermined and nothing we does matters, that instead of that view, we are given (from God) real freedom to trust in Christ, rely on Him, turn to Him, and be saved.

That all the bible matters: because we can really choose to listen, and hear, God's word.

We have God given ability, that He chose to give us, to freely rely on Christ.

 

[Kermos]

A friendly semantic/language question or issue -- I think that by 'free will' the intended meaning is to distinguish from the contrasting idea that God might control (subtly) our thoughts/choices, and the idea is that instead of manipulating us like puppets, controlling us, that God allows us to make our own choices. So, a phrase was coined to convey that idea: that our will is allowed to operate without being controlled.

So, when God works in us to actually change us and help us:

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

Philippians 2:13 - Shining as Stars

For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

biblehub.com

This is because we are asking Him to do so.
For example, in the daily prayer in Matthew 6, we make this request in effect in some degree I think, that He help us inside our minds -- "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".

So, the metaphor is like a Parent taking a child's hand and leading them.

The child willingly grasps the Parent's hand and follows them. (ideally)

So, we have the 'free' will -- choice -- to follow or to rebell, and so on.

Let's focus on where you wrote "...the idea is that instead of manipulating us like puppets, controlling us, that God..." In this second post examining your above quoted post.

Here is the Holy Word which you contradict:

• the love of Christ controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14).
• who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9:20-23).
• But now, O YHWH, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our Potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand (Isaiah 64:8)
• "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares YHWH. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel" (Jeremiah 18:6)
• I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
  And His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ (Daniel 4:34-36)
• I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Matthew 11:25).

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

In the context of righteousness/unrighteousness, there is a definition of free in scripture alluded to when the Christ said, "the Truth will set you Free". That would pertain to the will in the moral/immoral context, and it qualifies 'free' as a positive. Certainly, whatever will God gave us when he breathed Life and we became a living soul would be 'free', a positive, in the sense that it became corrupted and sinful through unbelief.

No, there is absolutely no context established by Jesus to free-will when He says "the Truth will set you Free" as your heart thinks, and the below proves the folly of thinking Jesus refers to free-will in John 8:32.

It doesn't literally state "free will", but I believe the Christ is alluding to a true "free will" here: John 8:32

Then, your "I believe" is your creed resulting in "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free-will" (the result of your creed), but that is not King Jesus Christ's words!

In Truth (John 14:6) Lord Jesus says "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) with clear context that Jesus refers to free from slavery, even slave to sin, because the conversation continued with the Jews responding with "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” (John 8:33).

And here is the contextual clincher that this is about "free" from "slave of sin", not your credal free-will, but truly "free" from being a "slave of sin" because Lord Jesus answers with "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).

childeye 2, your creed is error.

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and Jesus Christ makes us Christians free from slavery to sin (John 8:31-36), so the Christ of us Christians works our wills according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). All glory to Jesus!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[childeye 2]

No, there is absolutely no context established by Jesus to free-will when He says "the Truth will set you Free"

Respectfully, the above statement is incorrect, because the Christ Jesus establishes that he is speaking in the context of the will being set free from sin by the Truth. And the Holy Spirit is that Spirit of Truth that testifies to the singular Character of the Father and the Son.

Below are your own words conveying the same sentiment I am conveying.

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and Jesus Christ makes us Christians free from slavery to sin (John 8:31-36), so the Christ of us Christians works our wills according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). All glory to Jesus!

When I say there is a free will, I'm speaking about a will set free from the slavery of sin through the Holy Spirit abiding within.

 

[Kermos]

Even if someone were purely selfish, they would still have the freedom to choose which way they wanted to act selfishly. I don't agree that a moral/immoral choice doesn't qualify as a free will or that it forces a choice of necessity. Someone has the free will to choose whether to act morally or immorally, and even if they choose to act morally, they have the free will to choose the way in which to act morally. For example, it is moral to help the poor, but there are many ways that someone has the freedom to choose how to help the poor, such as by providing money, food, clothing, shelter, or a job.

Except, you free-willians in self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) are incapable of judging what is right by "your own initiative", even you being incapable of free-will choosing Jesus by "your own initiative", even you cannot see Jesus apart from God's work (John 3:3-8), so you cannot morally choose Jesus - see the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Continuing, you think you cause yourself to do "righteous" deeds according to "your own initiative". Deeds that if you were a Christian would truly be Fruit of the Holy Spirit of God (Galatians 5:22-23), so your doing these "righteous" deeds according to "your own initiative" is precisely the same thing as you doing these "righteous" deeds apart from Lord Jesus resulting in the fact that your thoughts are the opposite of Lord Jesus Christ's words (John 15:5); moreover, regarding "your own initiative", Soyeong, the Word of God is thus "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (Luke 12:57). You keep writing against Christ.

Lord Jesus says "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32), so your self-declared "righteous" ability puts you outside of the ones whom Lord Jesus Christ calls.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

@Soyeong * @timothyu @Blade @Michael Collum @IoanC @Frank Sophia @Strong in Him * @Diamond7 @fhansen * @childeye 2 @Stephen3141 @FutureAndAHope * @Halbhh *

Let's examine the free-willian dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

Free-willians abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when free-willians think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at free-willian's dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "this being's free-will is uncontrolled by that Being".

Free-willian foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (the free-willian) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being" resulting in a controlling relationship between the "being" and the being's "will", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

Free-willians level of abstraction fails because free-willians have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so free-willians are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, free-willian's faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but free-willians redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, free-willian's linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, a free-willian's "will" is not free from all beings because the free-willian's "will" is part of himself or herself. See the word "self" in the words "himself" and "herself", and "self" is key because by definition free-willians have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per the free-willian's own proclamation that the free-willian "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that free-willians are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).