The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Kermos]

@Strong in Him

In this post 3 of a triple series examining a single one of your posts, you are shown in Truth (John 14:6) and with proper linguistics:

• that Jesus is the absolute Truth (John 14:6) who by His grace exclusively chooses people unto salvation for His glory (John 15-16-19, Mark 13:37)!
• that You Free-willians just love to adulterate the Word of God, and your post is proof positive of this fact because you insufficiently quoted Jesus per John 8:36 without acknowledging the immediately prior verses, so let's see the passage in context "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever, so if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:35-36); THEREFORE, THE SLAVE OF SIN IS SET FREE FROM SIN BY THE POWER OF GOD, LORD JESUS CHRIST.
• that you corrupt the denotation of "free" as just "not forced" without denoting anything further whatsoever, but "free" denotes "not forced by something", so free-will that you claim for yourself is confusion since your will is forced by you according to your free-willian philosophy.
• that you try to steal the love that is the fount of God alone when you free-willians take any credit for loving God for Christ says "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (John 13:34) - see that the love to which Lord Jesus refers is the love of God for Jesus is God because He says "as I have loved you".
• that you wrote "My self will says - here, now, today - that I choose to believe, follow and trust God", so you classified yourself as "the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• that you preach God does not force "everyone to believe in" "him<sp>", yet God does cause the children of God to believe in God because the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) SO YOU PREACH AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[childeye 2]

Praise God! Your post to @fhansen has so much in it that is the Truth (John 14:6).

I'd like to segue to 1 John 3:3 for a moment which concludes your post.

And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure
(1 John 3:3, NASB)

And everyone who having the hope this in him purifies himself just-as he pure is.
(1 John 3:3, word-for-word Greek to English)

1. The Apostle John wrote:
   1. CLAUSE 1: And everyone who having the hope
   2. CLAUSE 2: this in him purifies himself
      1. The English word "himself" in 1 John 3:3 is translated from the Greek word ἑαυτὸν (heauton) (Greek Concordance)
         AND All 68 Occurrences of the Greek word "heauton" are the English word "himself" in the NT - not a single one is themselves
         AND The English word "themselves" corresponds to these Greek words:
         • ἑαυτάς (heautas) (Greek Concordance)
         • ἑαυτοῖς (heautois) (Greek Concordance)
         • ἑαυτοὺς (heautous) (Greek Concordance)
      2. The word "everyone" would need to be matched by the word "themselves" - not "himself" - for everyone to purify themselves.
      3. this upon him
      4. the Assembly of God is referred to as the Body of Christ (Matthew 26:26, Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18)
      yet, the word "themselves" is absent from 1 John 3:3.
   3. CLAUSE 3: just-as he pure is.
   4. Implication of the word "fixed" inserted into the NASB English translation with no Greek word support:
      moves the source from Christ to the believer thus changing the "himself" referring to Christ to referring to the believer.
   5. RESULT: So, it appears the Apostle John was writing something more along the lines of:
      And everyone who has the hope of being like Jesus - conformed into Christ-likeness
      this, the hope, this in Jesus, this in Him
      purifies Himself, His Body, the Body of Christ, the Assembly of God, Himself
      just as Christ Jesus is pure.

A more accurate translation than the KJV and NASB is "and every one who is having this hope on him, doth purify himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3, YLT).

Behold, God purifies the saints; in other words, the Lord cleanses His own body (1 John 3:3).

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I agree with the intended sentiments expressed in your post. Indeed, God be praised we say anything of knowledge and wisdom. There still remains the positive connotation of free will that is linguistically valid as a will set free from a false image of god, where the Truth in Christ sets us free. John 8:32.

 

[childeye 2]

Where the Scripture states that God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31), that was with sight to God's Good Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13) - not that Adam was good because "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), and furthermore, Adam was demonstrably evil before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Timeline Of Adam Eating The Fruit - Marking Chronological Milestones​

I'm going to do an exercise in chronological time dilation with "she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6), and I'm going to use present tense for illustrative purposes. The actions of Adam and Eve may not be the precisely accurate, but it serves for illustrative purposes.
TIME MARK ALEPH: Eve takes of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK BEYT: Eve swings her arm toward her mouth as her mouth is opening to take a eat.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK GIMAL: Eve bites and eats the fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK DALET: Eve extends her hand containing the fruit toward Adam's hand.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK HEY: Adam receives the fruit in his hand, and Eve withdraws her hand.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK VAV: Adam swings his hand with the fruit in it 25% of the way to his mouth.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK ZAYIN: Adam continues swinging his hand with the fruit in it, and now he has it 50% of the way to his mouth, and Adam is fully aware of God's command not to eat of the fruit (Genesis 2:16-17).

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK CHET: Adam gets the forbidden fruit to 75% of the way to his mouth, and he starts opening his mouth in preparation to eat the forbidden fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK TET: Adam now has the forbidden fruit threee millimeters from his mouth, but the fruit has not touched his lips, teeth, nor tongue.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK YUD: Adam starts contracting his muscles to close his mouth around the forbidden fruit in order to eat the fruit, but his mouth is still not in contact with the fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK KAPH: Adam's mouth comes in contact with the fruit and he bites and he eats the forbidden fruit in disobedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17).

• The "Adam is evil" sudden contrajuxtaposition of the "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23), and Adam becomes aware that he is evil, that is, aware of his flesh (Genesis 3:7).

From TIME MARK VAV up to and including TIME MARK YUD, the precept of man defines Adam as good because he had not actually eaten the forbidden fruit, yet the intent to eat of the fruit was in his heart.

Of benefit, the Word of God says wrong desire of the heart is sufficient for sin to occur (Matthew 5:28).

This chronological time dilation illustration represents a valuable spiritual truth. Adam was not good before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because if Adam had been good then Adam would have obeyed God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

A couple of intructional points from the creation account are:

• left to his own devices, man defies God
• man fell out of ignorance about being evil in his flesh

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I don't believe the flesh is evil of itself. It was formed by God and it seems to me fundamentally motivated to avoid discomfort. I believe the desire to be content is stirred to lust through prideful comparisons between ourselves and others, which then manifests covetousness and iniquities and grievances (see Cain). In contrast, God shows to be an altruistic Love that is no respecter of persons, yet gracious, merciful, and compassionate. So, it looks to me like there is a vainglory working in the selfish will, and a humble self-sacrificing mentality working in the True Image sent by God.

So, consider these semantics: There's a difference between saying Adam was good because he chose to be good and obedient, and saying Adam was good because God's Spirit that was breathed into him was good, because God is good. To say the latter is not intimating that Adam (formed from the earth) is good of his self, but rather that God alone is the only good in him. And this good in Adam that is God became darkened and corrupted in the heart, meaning it was first pure, and so it also means to me that corruption entered in through belief in a corrupt image of god that was not altruistic but self-serving. Hence Adam in his innocence was not demonstrably evil when he was made a living soul, because sin/corruption had not yet entered in. Yes, Adam caved to the woman's persuasion, but my sense is that he was meek, as in malleable when unsure. It is humility to me to believe I would not have fared better.

So, in your chronology, I note that you left out the event where a false image of god was introduced by the serpent to the innocent. The scriptures indicate that mankind was believing they would die if they ate, and that the episode with the serpent initiated a change of will that rationalized disobedience, to our own detriment. Therefore, to me that means we were deceived in some capacity; which makes me think of this scripture, 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Moreover, every act of sin is first preceded by believing something false and reasoning upon it as true. Wherefore the reasoning of a type of "free will" that rationalizes holding ourselves and others responsible for our moral/immoral actions becomes an unstable term to reason upon as an equivocation. It can result in hypocritical judgment when we reason upon sin as a matter of choice rather than a matter of being deceived. And that's why I think the Christ says we are judged by what measure we use to judge others and that the merciful will receive mercy.

 

[Strong in Him]

• that You Free-willians just love to adulterate the Word of God, and your post is proof positive of this fact because you insufficiently quoted Jesus per John 8:36 without acknowledging the immediately prior verses,

I'm sorry, but I have already said that as you persist in flinging around accusations, like "adulterate the word of God", or "preach against the word of God", and either misquote, or ignore what I have said; I am not interested in continuing the discussion.
So there is no point in your quoting my posts, tagging me into a reply or writing long posts where you continue to rebuke me.

You believe what you want to believe, and think of me what you like; I'm done.
If you persist in this I will either put you on ignore or report you for baiting.

 

[childeye 2]

I'm sorry, but I have already said that as you persist in flinging around accusations, like "adulterate the word of God", or "preach against the word of God", and either misquote, or ignore what I have said; I am not interested in continuing the discussion.
So there is no point in your quoting my posts, tagging me into a reply or writing long posts where you continue to rebuke me.

You believe what you want to believe, and think of me what you like; I'm done.
If you persist in this I will either put you on ignore or report you for baiting.

My sympathies about the discourse and any discord between you two. I see it as a misunderstanding because so much of this is arguing semantics. I believe that the reason we love our enemies is because they aren't really our enemies.

 

[timothyu]

I believe that the reason we love our enemies is because they aren't really our enemies.

Exactly. We have all been guilty at one time or another of defending our self righteousness, our self determination, our self justification, our self centeredness, our self interest, or simply put - following self rather than the will of God.

 

[childeye 2]

Exactly. We have all been guilty at one time or another of defending our self righteousness, our self determination, our self justification, our self centeredness, our self interest, or simply put - following self rather than the will of God.

I agree with your intended sentiment. The thing is that we are blind when carnal minded and we think we are serving our own best interests when we are not.

 

[timothyu]

The thing is that we are blind when carnal minded and we think we are serving our own best interests when we are not.

As followers of Jesus we are alreaqdy supposed to know that carnal thinking is not of the Kingdom . Why play the games of the fallen elohim?

 

[childeye 2]

As followers of Jesus we are alreaqdy supposed to know that carnal thinking is not of the Kingdom . Why play the games of the fallen elohim?

Christian babes come to understand these things through the Holy Spirit, and the renewing of the mind is a process of transformation into the mind of Christ. I can safely say that I know it was not an instantaneous event for me and I still have not reached perfection from my limited view. I believe God in His wisdom uses the vanity of the creature to His own ends, so that we learn through these events the necessity of humility and thankfulness to God. Wherefore all things work for good to those who Love God. As such I cannot comment on the Elohim other than to say that the fallen angels could have been mirrored in the fall of mankind.

 

[Kermos]

That is right. We have a dual nature but unlike our fellow animals who have no desire to go beyond the normal, our animal instincts became weaponized with the knowledge of good and evil (which our animal brethren don't posses) where we could self justify going beyond the necessary for gain at the expense of others.

Wow, I hear you. Good words, thanks.

Even partaking of that knowledge against God's advice happened by pondering a corrupt image of god projected by the serpent, which in turn could also justify partaking of it when reasoning upon that imagery.

The serpent spoke as if he had that knowledge, and he spoke as if to impress a higher station above Eve under God. It's therefore conceivable how a high angel might see mankind in their innocence content in their station under God and wanted to be worshipped in some manner as God, because the angel had a vain image of god wherein, they were not content in their own station.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Matthew 11:25​

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.​

You are gravely mistaken, timothyu, with writing that man is an animal for man is made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26), so, in effect, you call God an animal.

And shame on you, childeye 2, with you writing "Wow, I hear you. Good words, thanks" - your agreement - in response to timothyu's abominably evil thoughts!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[timothyu]

You are gravely mistaken, timothyu, with writing that man is an animal for man is made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26), so, in effect, you call God an animal.

Would you prefer mammal which follows the same self preserving instincts? As you call it 'natural man'? Does it matter the vehicle God chose as a vessel? We are a hybrid.

 

[Kermos]

Our part is obedience, His part is to purify us. My wife says we do our part and God will do His. We cannot sit down and do nothing and expect God to do everything for us. I wish that were true, but we still have to do our part.

Obedience of the Christian is caused by God because the deed of obeying is wrought in God - "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Obedience is a fruit of the Spirit (1 Peter 1:19-22, Galatians 5:22-23), so, please mention to your wife that God causes us Christians to be obedient to God, and God purifies us Christians, and we Christians cause neither obedience nor purity in ourselves. To think otherwise is to steal from God in one's heart, and that is a very evil deed.

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance" (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 5:32).

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[childeye 2]

You are gravely mistaken, timothyu, with writing that man is an animal for man is made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26), so, in effect, you call God an animal.

And shame on you, childeye 2, with you writing "Wow, I hear you. Good words, thanks" - your agreement - in response to timothyu's abominably evil thoughts!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Thanks for your sincere admonition. But I think you're mistaken. He's not intending to mean that Adam was not made in God's Image. His words indicate to me a humility by saying that compared to God as the Creator, we're creatures just like animals are creatures. He's also saying that unlike the other kinds, the man creature developed a carnal vanity after eating the knowledge of good and evil. I pointed out this same vanity was also in the serpent. For example, scripture says that man was made a little lower than the angels just like other kinds of creature are beneath us, and yet Satan wanted to ascend his throne above all others even unto the throne of God.

 

[Kermos]

That is where rejection of our self serving ways comes into play. Repentance. Imagine a politician or corporate entity trying that.

Very few people seem to repent for what they do in order to make money.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it for the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 7:13-14).

Repentance Defined

THESE THREE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED​

• What is repentance?
• Who controls repentance?
• How does a person repent?

LINGUISTIC DEFiNITION​

Let us dig into the word "repent" which means "think differently afterwards". After we believers are born from above by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3), and in like manner given the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). The Greek word metanoeó is the English word "repent" in Matthew 4:17. Let us obtain the definition of "repent".

Repent: think differently afterwards

metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards") (def from 3340. metanoeó HELPS Word-studies section).
​

The word "repent" does not mean "I change my mind" as asserted by too many people. Try reciting the words of Jesus, where He is commanding the people in Matthew 4:17, except, first, replace the word "repent" with "I change my mind", then, second, replace the word "repent" with "think differently afterwards". God does not change (Malachi 3:6), so this One True God Jesus commands repent.
Godly sorrow brings "thinking differently afterward" leading to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10, so God's power generates this sorrow within the believers hence God calls it "Godly sorrow" thus illuminating and magnifying sin (Romans 5:20).

FIRST BIBLICAL CiTATION FOR REPENTANCE - A DEEP EXAMINATION​

Here is the Christian teaching of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

1. For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
2. I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
3. For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's repentance point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

The scripture is devoid of "sorrow that is according to your free will" or "your free will to repent" or any indication about such a notion as man's free-will choice toward God.

The Apostle wrote "the sorrow that is according to God produces thinking differently afterward without regret" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

SCRIPTURAL CITATIONS ABOUT THE SOURCE OF REPENTANCE​

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance as testified by the disciples in Acts 11:18.

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

Paul testifies that God grants "thinking different afterwards" in 2 Timothy 2:25.

THE THREE QUESTIONS ANSWERED​

God grants repentance into people, as it is written; on the other hand, there is complete absence and silence in scripture for repentance as a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free will" nor "choice" nor "ability".

God grants repentance, and God acts for God's glory! Praise be to the Living God!

---

Return to main essay "Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor"

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

It doesn't literally state "free will", but I believe the Christ is alluding to a true "free will" here: John 8:32

Then, your "I believe" is your creed resulting in "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free-will" (the result of your creed), but that is not King Jesus Christ's words!

In Truth (John 14:6) Lord Jesus says "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) with clear context that Jesus refers to free from slavery, even slave to sin, because the conversation continued with the Jews responding with "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” (John 8:33).

And here is the contextual clincher that this is about "free" from "slave of sin", not your credal free-will, but truly "free" from being a "slave of sin" because Lord Jesus answers with "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).

childeye 2, your creed is error.

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and Jesus Christ makes us Christians free from slavery to sin (John 8:31-36), so the Christ of us Christians works our wills according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). All glory to Jesus!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[childeye 2]

Then, your "I believe" is your creed resulting in "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free-will" (the result of your creed), but that is not King Jesus Christ's words!

I think a more accurate description of my understanding would be articulated as, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make your will free from sin.

Well, you're clearly not understanding me, otherwise I think you would agree. This is my full statement: It doesn't literally state "free will", but I believe the Christ is alluding to a true "free will" here: John 8:32.

"It doesn't literally state "free will",... <--- This part of the above statement is meant to convey that I should not be misunderstood as claiming to quote Christ, lest by chance someone might think I'm trying to change or add to the words he said.

"...., but I believe the Christ is alluding to a true "free will" here: John 8:32" <--- This part of the statement is meant to convey my understanding as to the thing Christ is meaning to say will be set free by the Truth, which is the will of the person as it relates to the heart and soul. I am forming that conclusion of meaning based on Jesus referencing sin as slavery by contrast.

So, one meaning I could take from his words is ----> That it is an ignorance of Truth that holds the will captive to sin.

In Truth (John 14:6) Lord Jesus says "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) with clear context that Jesus refers to free from slavery, even slave to sin, because the conversation continued with the Jews responding with "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” (John 8:33).

And here is the contextual clincher that this is about "free" from "slave of sin", not your credal free-will, but truly "free" from being a "slave of sin" because Lord Jesus answers with "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).

childeye 2, your creed is error.

Respectfully, I don't see you conveying anything different in meaning than what you deem as my creed; that the will is what is set free from slavery to sin by the Truth (that Truth being the revealed Christ).

Galatians 1:15-16
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and Jesus Christ makes us Christians free from slavery to sin (John 8:31-36), so the Christ of us Christians works our wills according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). All glory to Jesus!

Well, there it is with your own words. You indicate belief in the same creed; that the Christ is alluding to the will, when you use the phrase "works our WILLS". So, there is a valid free will qualified as a positive connotation of 'free from sin".

The positive connotation of a free will:
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The negative connotation of a free will:
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

 

[Kermos]

The bible says lots of things. And how do you know who the sheep are, who will persevere to the end? Is that just your own decision-about yourself? Will all be saved just because they say they are? Matt 25 gives us some idea, as a guide. But only God knows with certainty. If you open the door... If you come after Me...If you remain in Me... And then,

"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first." 2 Pet 2:20

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6:4-6

I see, for you the Word of God is overridden by mistranslation and misconception such that this Word of God is a LIE as issued by Christ "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 10:27-30).

YOUR MISCONCEPTION OF 2 PETER 2:20

First, the passage in context:

(17) These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. (18) For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, (19) promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. (20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. (22) It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
(2 Peter 2:17-22, NASB)
​

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 1 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are not referred to as believers in Christ anywhere in Scripture; moreover, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are not even referred to by Peter as Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30).

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 2 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are identified by Peter as "springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved" (2 Peter 2:17); therefore, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are not a part of Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30) because "springs without water" contain no water of the Living Water's (John 4:10) fountain of water "whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14).

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 3 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are each individually "the one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away" (Matthew 13:20-21); therefore, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are no part of Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30) - SEE THE "THEM" ARE NOT ROOTED IN CHRIST.

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 4 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are the self-willed unrighteous persons in 2 Peter 2:9-10 referred to by Peter as under judgment in the same passage; therefore, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are absolutely not a part of Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30).

CONCLUSION ABOUT YOUR MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT 2 PETER 2:20

You use unbelievers, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20, as your proof text that Lord Jesus Christ is so very weak that believers get snatched from His Hand, so your heart's treasure nullifies the Christ's words recorded in John 10:27-30.

YOUR MISTRANSLATION OF HEBREWS 6:4-6

Did you know that the word "impossible" was moved 2 verses from the words original position in the Greek by the English translators?

And, did you know that when the word "impossible" is in the word's proper position, then the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage is in accord with John 10:27-30?

I recall reading Hebrews 6:4-6 before I knew what a Greek/English interlinear was. When I read that passage in the NASB, it threw me. According to the rendition, there is a point of no return for the Christian. I recall the pastor of the church that we attended had a book that had an explanation, but it was after God brought to my attention the Greek/English interlinear that the true meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6 shines through!

The Greek/English interlinear of Hebrews 6:4-6 is at the end of this section. I put in both Scripture4All.org and Biblehub.com copies along with both the KJV and NASB.

For the sake of clariity, here is the NASB of Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame

Continuing for the sake of clarity, here is the Scripture4All word-for-word Greek to English translation of Hebrews 6:4-6

UN-ABLE for THE-ones ONCE BEING-enLIGHTenED TASTing BESIDES OF-THE gratuity OF-THE ON-heavenly AND WITH-HAVers BEING-BECOME OF-spirit HOLY AND IDEAL TASTing OF-God declaration ABILITIES BESIDES OF-beING-ABOUT AND BESIDE-FALLING AGAIN TO-BE-UP-NEWizING INTO after-MIND UP-impalING to-selves THE SON OF-THE God AND BESIDE-SHOWizING

We find that the NASB translators moved UN-ABLE (impossible) from verse 4 to verse 6. That is an unacceptable translation. The NIV adds quite a bit.

But, when we look at Hebrews 6:7-8 immediately subsequent to Hebrews 6:4-6, we find a compare and contrast, here is the NASB

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The Jews often repeat things, and Hebrews 6:7-8 is a form of repeat of Hebrews 6:4-6.

The compare and contrast is the positive in verse 7 "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God" with the negative in verse 8 "but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned".

Let us return to the Hebrews 6:7-8 precursor which is Hebrews 6:4-6. Where is the positive in Hebrews 6:4-6? Well, the answer is this, that "Impossible for the ones once enlightened tasting the heavenly gift and become partakers of the Holy Spirit and goodness tasting of God's word power also coming age".

That's a powerful blessing (recall Hebrews 6:7), something is impossible for us believers!

What is the impossible thing? The answer lies in the contrast portion of Hebrews 6:4-6, that specifically is in Hebrews 6:6 "and fall away again restore to repeentance crucifying to themselves the Son of God"

That is a scary curse (recall Hebrews 6:8), yet that curse is impossible for us believers - see the very first word of Hebrews 6:4 which is "adynaton" in Greek and "impossible" in English (UN-ABLE in Scripture4All.org's English)!

Amazing is the point that Lord Jesus declares of we His sheep "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

And the Word of God says "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:29).

Behold how no one that is Jesus' own, not even a person can do to the person's self, can be snatched out of His hand, for His hand is powerful!

Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 6:7-8 are in accord with Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John!

1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Scripture4All Translation
Scripture4All Further Translation
BibleHub Strongs Number
BibleHub Greek Transliteration
BibleHub Translation
KJV
NASB

6:4
UN-ABLE for THE-ones ONCE BEING-enLIGHTenED TASTing BESIDES OF-THE gratuity OF-THE ON-heavenly AND WITH-HAVers BEING-BECOME OF-spirit HOLY
it-is-impossible the-ones the the celestial partakers

102 1063 3588 530 5461 1089 5037 3588 1431 3588 2032 2532 3353 1096 4151 40

Adynaton gar tous hapax photisthentas geusamenous te tes doreas tes epouraniou kai metochous genethentas Pneumatos Hagiou

[It is] impossible for to those once having been enlightened having tasted then of the gift - heavenly and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

6:5
AND IDEAL TASTing OF-God declaration ABILITIES BESIDES OF-beING-ABOUT
powerful-deeds of-impending

2532 2570 1089 2316 4487 1411 5037 3195 165

kai kalon geusamenous Theou rhema dynameis te mellontos aionos

and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word [the] power also [of the] coming age

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6:6
AND BESIDE-FALLING AGAIN TO-BE-UP-NEWizING INTO after-MIND UP-impalING to-selves THE SON OF-THE God AND BESIDE-SHOWizING
falling-aside to-be-renewing repentance ones-crucifying-again to-themselves holding-up-to-infamy-him

2532 3895 3825 340 1519 3341 388 1438 3588 5207 3588 2316 2532 3856

kai parapesontas palin anakainizein eis metanoian anastaurountas heautois ton Huion tou Theou kai paradeigmatizontas

and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance crucifying in themselves the Son - of God and subjecting [Him] to open shame

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

CONCLUSION ABOUT YOUR MISTRANSLATION ABOUT HEBREWS 6:4-6

The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having also tasted of the heavenly gift, and having become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good Word of God, also the powers of the coming age, and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to repentance, having crucified to themselves the Son of God again, and exposing to public shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6).

See, the impossibility of a Christian to expose the Christ to public shame (Hebrews 6:4-6) because the love of Christ controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[fhansen]

I see, for you the Word of God is overridden by mistranslation and misconception such that this Word of God is a LIE as issued by Christ "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 10:27-30).

YOUR MISCONCEPTION OF 2 PETER 2:20

First, the passage in context:

​

(17) These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. (18) For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, (19) promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. (20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. (22) It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”​

(2 Peter 2:17-22, NASB)​

​

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 1 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are not referred to as believers in Christ anywhere in Scripture; moreover, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are not even referred to by Peter as Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30).

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 2 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are identified by Peter as "springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved" (2 Peter 2:17); therefore, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are not a part of Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30) because "springs without water" contain no water of the Living Water's (John 4:10) fountain of water "whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14).

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 3 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are each individually "the one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away" (Matthew 13:20-21); therefore, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are no part of Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30) - SEE THE "THEM" ARE NOT ROOTED IN CHRIST.

YOUR MISCONCEPTION PROOF 4 FOR 2 PETER 2:20

@fhansen, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20 are the self-willed unrighteous persons in 2 Peter 2:9-10 referred to by Peter as under judgment in the same passage; therefore, the "them" (2 Peter 2:20) are absolutely not a part of Christ's "My sheep" (John 10:27-30).

CONCLUSION ABOUT YOUR MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT 2 PETER 2:20

You use unbelievers, the "them" in 2 Peter 2:20, as your proof text that Lord Jesus Christ is so very weak that believers get snatched from His Hand, so your heart's treasure nullifies the Christ's words recorded in John 10:27-30.

YOUR MISTRANSLATION OF HEBREWS 6:4-6

Did you know that the word "impossible" was moved 2 verses from the words original position in the Greek by the English translators?

And, did you know that when the word "impossible" is in the word's proper position, then the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage is in accord with John 10:27-30?

I recall reading Hebrews 6:4-6 before I knew what a Greek/English interlinear was. When I read that passage in the NASB, it threw me. According to the rendition, there is a point of no return for the Christian. I recall the pastor of the church that we attended had a book that had an explanation, but it was after God brought to my attention the Greek/English interlinear that the true meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6 shines through!

The Greek/English interlinear of Hebrews 6:4-6 is at the end of this section. I put in both Scripture4All.org and Biblehub.com copies along with both the KJV and NASB.

For the sake of clariity, here is the NASB of Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame

Continuing for the sake of clarity, here is the Scripture4All word-for-word Greek to English translation of Hebrews 6:4-6

UN-ABLE for THE-ones ONCE BEING-enLIGHTenED TASTing BESIDES OF-THE gratuity OF-THE ON-heavenly AND WITH-HAVers BEING-BECOME OF-spirit HOLY AND IDEAL TASTing OF-God declaration ABILITIES BESIDES OF-beING-ABOUT AND BESIDE-FALLING AGAIN TO-BE-UP-NEWizING INTO after-MIND UP-impalING to-selves THE SON OF-THE God AND BESIDE-SHOWizING

We find that the NASB translators moved UN-ABLE (impossible) from verse 4 to verse 6. That is an unacceptable translation. The NIV adds quite a bit.

But, when we look at Hebrews 6:7-8 immediately subsequent to Hebrews 6:4-6, we find a compare and contrast, here is the NASB

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The Jews often repeat things, and Hebrews 6:7-8 is a form of repeat of Hebrews 6:4-6.

The compare and contrast is the positive in verse 7 "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God" with the negative in verse 8 "but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned".

Let us return to the Hebrews 6:7-8 precursor which is Hebrews 6:4-6. Where is the positive in Hebrews 6:4-6? Well, the answer is this, that "Impossible for the ones once enlightened tasting the heavenly gift and become partakers of the Holy Spirit and goodness tasting of God's word power also coming age".

That's a powerful blessing (recall Hebrews 6:7), something is impossible for us believers!

What is the impossible thing? The answer lies in the contrast portion of Hebrews 6:4-6, that specifically is in Hebrews 6:6 "and fall away again restore to repeentance crucifying to themselves the Son of God"

That is a scary curse (recall Hebrews 6:8), yet that curse is impossible for us believers - see the very first word of Hebrews 6:4 which is "adynaton" in Greek and "impossible" in English (UN-ABLE in Scripture4All.org's English)!

Amazing is the point that Lord Jesus declares of we His sheep "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

And the Word of God says "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:29).

Behold how no one that is Jesus' own, not even a person can do to the person's self, can be snatched out of His hand, for His hand is powerful!

Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 6:7-8 are in accord with Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John!

1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Scripture4All Translation
Scripture4All Further Translation
BibleHub Strongs Number
BibleHub Greek Transliteration
BibleHub Translation
KJV
NASB

6:4
UN-ABLE for THE-ones ONCE BEING-enLIGHTenED TASTing BESIDES OF-THE gratuity OF-THE ON-heavenly AND WITH-HAVers BEING-BECOME OF-spirit HOLY
it-is-impossible the-ones the the celestial partakers

102 1063 3588 530 5461 1089 5037 3588 1431 3588 2032 2532 3353 1096 4151 40

Adynaton gar tous hapax photisthentas geusamenous te tes doreas tes epouraniou kai metochous genethentas Pneumatos Hagiou

[It is] impossible for to those once having been enlightened having tasted then of the gift - heavenly and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

6:5
AND IDEAL TASTing OF-God declaration ABILITIES BESIDES OF-beING-ABOUT
powerful-deeds of-impending

2532 2570 1089 2316 4487 1411 5037 3195 165

kai kalon geusamenous Theou rhema dynameis te mellontos aionos

and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word [the] power also [of the] coming age

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6:6
AND BESIDE-FALLING AGAIN TO-BE-UP-NEWizING INTO after-MIND UP-impalING to-selves THE SON OF-THE God AND BESIDE-SHOWizING
falling-aside to-be-renewing repentance ones-crucifying-again to-themselves holding-up-to-infamy-him

2532 3895 3825 340 1519 3341 388 1438 3588 5207 3588 2316 2532 3856

kai parapesontas palin anakainizein eis metanoian anastaurountas heautois ton Huion tou Theou kai paradeigmatizontas

and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance crucifying in themselves the Son - of God and subjecting [Him] to open shame

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

CONCLUSION ABOUT YOUR MISTRANSLATION ABOUT HEBREWS 6:4-6

The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having also tasted of the heavenly gift, and having become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good Word of God, also the powers of the coming age, and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to repentance, having crucified to themselves the Son of God again, and exposing to public shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6).

See, the impossibility of a Christian to expose the Christ to public shame (Hebrews 6:4-6) because the love of Christ controls us (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You can’t even be 100% certain that you’re one of His sheep to begin with.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

There is no scripture that states man was imparted free-will; therefore, anyone who thinks man has a free-will does not believe the Word of God.

There is plenty of scripture that shows that God gives us a choice like:

Job 36:10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.
Job 36:11 If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures.
Job 36:12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Beware, you two, because that Irenaeus translation by Philip Schaff et al (1819-1893) is potentially corrupt because only fragrants of the original Greek exists, but, hey, you showed no sign of caring about that when you posted Schaff's translation as your authoritative source for your heart's treasure that man has a free-will.

What evidence do you have of that? They are not going to translate out of nothing.