The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Halbhh]

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Do everything without grumbling or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky as you hold firmly to the word of life.

...whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Following Paul’s Example

All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.

Philippians 2, 3
----------------

@Kermos

 

[fhansen]

When you think "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) means that "This is because we are asking Him to do so" (the word of Halbhh explaining Philippians 2:13) then the only way you can arrive at your premise/conclusion is by adding "ask" into Paul's Holy Word such that "it is your work asking God to work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure". It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

The Apostle Paul literally declares that God unilaterally works man's will (Philippians 2:13), so God is in control of the Christian's will, but you try to make man in control of God.

This third post in this series demonstrates your error regarding a verse that you quoted.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Whether we ask Him or not it's a cooperative effort, according to His wisdom and will, for our highest good. We can refuse His overtures towards us, His grace.

 

[Kermos]

"the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

Paying attention to deceitful spirits qualifies as a deceived will, not a free will (positive connotation).

A deceived will person is a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10).

That "fall away from the faith" is not "fall out of the faith".

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

If controlled our thoughts and choices, then we would not have a will, just a robot does not have a will. By God allowing us to make our own choices, He is giving us a will. As far as I can see having a will does not mean anything different from having a free will, so I see the word "free" as being redundant.

Your first sentence is false.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.

Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

By God's grace, for God's glory!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

The accepted common usage of the phrase "Free Will"

While interesting discussion about how to think of 'free will' is ongoing, it's good to remember the normal, almost universal usage (of perhaps 95%+ of people).

I'd word it this way:

By 'free will' the intended meaning is to distinguish from the contrasting idea that God might control (subtly) our thoughts/choices.

The idea that God can control us is a fairly widespread idea. It might be that even 10-30% of people think that (or it might be less, more like 5-10%).... It's not a rare idea. For instance, some point to God hardening hearts in scripture, etc.

So, the phrase 'free will' was coined to put the contrasting idea into a specific phrase -- the idea that instead of manipulating us like puppets, controlling us, that God allows us to make our own choices.


So, to compare with the most famous verse regarding our will:

When God works in us to actually change us and help us:

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

Philippians 2:13 - Shining as Stars

For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

biblehub.com

This seems it is because we are asking Him to do so.
For example, in the daily prayer in Matthew 6, we make this request in effect in some degree I think, that He help us inside our minds -- "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".

So, the metaphor is like a Parent taking a child's hand and leading them.

The child willingly grasps the Parent's hand and follows them. (ideally)

So, we have the 'free' will -- choice -- to follow or to rebell, and so on.

Lord Jesus commands "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14), so your "common usage of the phrase 'Free Will'" among a broad swathe of people does not make your usage the right Way (John 14:6) as per linguistics, logic, and, most importantly, the Truth (John 14:6). The right Way (John 14:6) is shown in the following.

Let's examine the free-willian dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

Free-willians abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when free-willians think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at free-willian's dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "this being's free-will is uncontrolled by that Being".

Free-willian foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (the free-willian) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being" resulting in a controlling relationship between the "being" and the being's "will", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

The free-willian's level of abstraction fails because free-willians have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so free-willians are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, free-willian's faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but free-willians redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, free-willian's linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, a free-willian's "will" is not free from all beings because the free-willian's "will" is part of himself or herself. See the word "self" in the words "himself" and "herself", and "self" is key because by definition free-willians have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per the free-willian's own proclamation that the free-willian "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that free-willians are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

In Truth (John 14:6), we Christian's have a "will" controlled by the Christ of us Christians for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

When you think "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) means that "This is because we are asking Him to do so" (from your post) then the only way you can arrive at your premise/conclusion is by adding "ask" into Paul's Holy Word such that "it is your work asking God to work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure". It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

The Apostle Paul literally declares that God unilaterally works man's will (Philippians 2:13), so God is in control of the Christian's will, but you try to make man in control of God.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Halbhh]

Lord Jesus commands "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14), so your "common usage of the phrase 'Free Will'" among Free-willian Philosophers is the broad way as per linguistics, logic, and, most importantly, the Truth (John 14:6) shown in the following.

Let's examine the free-willian dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

Free-willians abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when free-willians think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at free-willian's dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "this being's free-will is uncontrolled by that Being".

Free-willian foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (the free-willian) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being" resulting in a controlling relationship between the "being" and the being's "will", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

The free-willian's level of abstraction fails because free-willians have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so free-willians are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, free-willian's faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but free-willians redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, free-willian's linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, a free-willian's "will" is not free from all beings because the free-willian's "will" is part of himself or herself. See the word "self" in the words "himself" and "herself", and "self" is key because by definition free-willians have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per the free-willian's own proclamation that the free-willian "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that free-willians are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

In Truth (John 14:6), we Christian's have a "will" controlled by the Christ of us Christians for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

When you think "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) means that "This is because we are asking Him to do so" (the word of Halbhh explaining Philippians 2:13) then the only way you can arrive at your premise/conclusion is by adding "ask" into Paul's Holy Word such that "it is your work asking God to work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure". It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

The Apostle Paul literally declares that God unilaterally works man's will (Philippians 2:13), so God is in control of the Christian's will, but you try to make man in control of God.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

While I'm was writing as if my post will be read entirely, as a whole, and even perhaps with other posts I wrote, together, giving context, instead of just 1 sentence being picked out, still, I can see how that 1 sentence in the middle of my post by itself could possibly, in isolation by itself without the other sentences be a problem for some possibly, though I didn't expect that. (when we pray, we are literally asking God for things...see?)

Seeing now it's possible someone could trip on that 1 sentence, I'll change/clarify that sentence with the problematic wording you have been so provoked about, to follow 1rst Corinthians 8.

A key thing for us all to learn and do: Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 8 - English Standard Version (generalized in Romans 14 for instance)

This could help you also, of course!

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14 - New International Version

The Weak and the Strong - Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Halbhh]

Lord Jesus commands "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14), so your "common usage of the phrase 'Free Will'" among Free-willian Philosophers is the broad way as per linguistics, logic, and, most importantly, the Truth (John 14:6) shown in the following.

Let's examine the free-willian dearly held faith that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" as compared to linguistics, logic, and Scripture in Truth (John 14:6).

Free-willians abstract (compartmentalize) at two different levels when free-willians think "my free-will is uncontrolled by God".

God is a Being.

You are a being.

A "will" is not a being.

A "will" is part of a being, and a "will" does not exist without a being.

Let's look at free-willian's dearly held belief that "my free-will is uncontrolled by God" from a related perspective, "this being's free-will is uncontrolled by that Being".

Free-willian foundation is the relationship that a "will" is "free" from a "being", and the relationship succeeds logically and linguistically only by including that a "will" is "free" from every "being"; therefore, that "will" must be free from the "Being" (God) as well as that "will" free from the "being" (the free-willian) as well as that "will" free from every other "being", yet a "will" must be part of a "being" resulting in a controlling relationship between the "being" and the being's "will", so the concept of a "will" free from a "being" is illogical.

The free-willian's level of abstraction fails because free-willians have grouped "will" at the same level as the group of "beings", so free-willians are comparing unrelated things, that is, a "will" and a "being"; in other words, free-willian's faulty premise results in a sinfully false conclusion.

The word "free" means "a something detached from an other something", but free-willians redefine "free" to mean "a something detached from that something's self"; therefore, free-willian's linguistics are illegal.

No Scripture states that God imparted man a free-will, in fact, the single occurrence of free-will in the New Testament is where the Apostle Paul refers to free-will as illusory (Philemon 1:14).

Now, a free-willian's "will" is not free from all beings because the free-willian's "will" is part of himself or herself. See the word "self" in the words "himself" and "herself", and "self" is key because by definition free-willians have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) per the free-willian's own proclamation that the free-willian "will" is uncontrolled by God, and, here, in Scripture, we find that free-willians are out of accord with Apostolic testimony.

In Truth (John 14:6), we Christian's have a "will" controlled by the Christ of us Christians for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

When you think "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) means that "This is because we are asking Him to do so" (the word of Halbhh explaining Philippians 2:13) then the only way you can arrive at your premise/conclusion is by adding "ask" into Paul's Holy Word such that "it is your work asking God to work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure". It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

The Apostle Paul literally declares that God unilaterally works man's will (Philippians 2:13), so God is in control of the Christian's will, but you try to make man in control of God.

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but natural man possessing a self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

By 'free will' we do not mean 'self will' which is rebellion against God.

Instead of that kind of rebellion denoted by 'self will', the phrase 'free will' means simply the God-given ability to think and make choices, and that our choices are not pre-determined like a rigidly controlled machine like a train going on a track.

Free Will being the case means the Bible is giving us real instructions we can choose to learn and attempt to put into practice, even the Life or Death choices about turning to Christ (which God aids us in doing). Even though we can do nothing good without God working through us.

God is able.

The concept of 'free will' is not a recent Christian doctrine, but very old, from the early church, and especially biblical including how it is the condition in which the instructions God gives to humanity in the Bible are real, and make sense as choices we can choose to follow or rebel against -- so that the Bible verses of instructions to us aren't just decoration but are consequential/meaningful/substantive. Not just decoration.

It's the mainstream Christian understanding since the beginning.
-->

Do human beings truly have a free will? | GotQuestions.org

Do human beings truly have a free will? Are human beings simply robots that are programmed to do what God wants?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[timothyu]

Instead of that kind of rebellion denoted by 'self will', the phrase 'free will' means simply the God-given ability to think and make choices, and that our choices are not pre-determined like a rigidly controlled machine like a train going on a track.

Agreed. We were to be creative, but not as independent agents. We worked upon assignment until the fall.

 

[childeye 2]

A deceived will person is a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I can agree with that. Cynicism is the opposite direction of grace through faith.

That "fall away from the faith" is not "fall out of the faith".

The scripture indicates being drawn away from the faith through deception. Cynicism is the opposite of grace through faith.

 

[timothyu]

It is ironic that being drawn away from faith is being drawn into religion.

 

[Halbhh]

Agreed. We were to be creative, but not as independent agents. We worked upon assignment until the fall.

Yes, being independent of God in some total way is like cutting out one's soul and a large part of the heart.

 

[timothyu]

Yes, being independent of God in some total way is like cutting out one's soul and a large part of the heart.

It's funny how that seems to continue today, whereas back then man took what was God's and made it their own to do as they pleased with, shunning God. Today we have all sorts taking what was someone else's creation and claiming or demanding it as their own, shunning the entitled whites that created it. This will no doubt carry on in some other form someday.

 

[Halbhh]

It's funny how that seems to continue today, whereas back then man took what was God's and made it their own to do as they pleased with, shunning God. Today we have all sorts taking what was someone else's creation and claiming or demanding it as their own, shunning the entitled whites that created it. This will no doubt carry on in some other form someday.

Until Christ returns, yes. He will bring Justice. Nothing can be hidden from Him. Those that have hurt others intentionally, unrepentantly, and thought they got away with it, will face the consequences.

 

[childeye 2]

Yes, being independent of God in some total way is like cutting out one's soul and a large part of the heart.

Essentially you mean spiritually dead. His Word is the Life and the Light of mankind.

 

[Halbhh]

His Word is the Life and the Light of mankind.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Revelation 3:20 - To the Church in Laodicea

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

biblehub.com

 

[childeye 2]

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Revelation 3:20 - To the Church in Laodicea

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

biblehub.com

This would be a scenario where Jesus is outside knocking at the door of the heart. It conveys the door of the heart is opened through hearing and believing the Truth.

 

[Halbhh]

This would be a scenario where Jesus is outside knocking at the door of the heart of an enslaved will. It conveys the door of the heart is opened through hearing and believing the Truth.

Only "few" are truly converted, and very many haven't yet answered that knock on the door.

 

[timothyu]

Only "few" are truly converted, and very many haven't yet answered that knock on the door.

Not when the election cycle is once again firing up. The worldly have their self serving priorities.

 

[childeye 2]

Only "few" are truly converted, and very many haven't yet answered that knock on the door.

I note that the parable of the Sower speaks of sowing the Word; That it must be heard and understood so as to bear fruit.

 

[timothyu]

That it must be heard and understood so as to bear fruit.

We are to spread the seed/Gospel of the Kingdom, but the parable tells of the pitfalls our seeding may face. We are not to determine how those seeds grow but it IS our responsibility to get the seed right in the first place in showing how self interest creates all the evil in the world and show the opposite..