The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Kermos]

People here on ChristianForums.com preach that God has a free-will, even recorded in the Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation? thread.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

The definition of free-will must be considered.

Free will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

1. a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
2. a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal God's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for there to be an associated will; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

 

[Soyeong]

People here on ChristianForums.com preach that God has a free-will, even recorded in the Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation? thread.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

The definition of free-will must be considered.

Free will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

Having a free will does not refer to having a will that is free floating detached from a person, but to having a real choice between two or more options. Before Adam and Eve ate of either tree, they were at a crossroads between immortality and mortality, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil cause them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to become immortal, and they were given a choice of which tree to eat from. There are a number of ways that show that Eve's desire influenced her to eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3:6) and when our desire enters the picture, our knowledge of true and false becomes clouded into knowledge of Good and Evil, where we can no longer lean on our own understanding to certain if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it. This is where we have he choice of whether to lean on our own understanding or to trust in the Lord with all of our heart to correctly divide between true and false, in all of our ways acknowledge Him, and He will make our paths straight (Provers 3:1-6).

In short, the entire Bible is about whether we are going to choose to do our will or undo the damage caused by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil by submitting our will to God's will so that we can instead choose to eat from the Tree of Life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Israelis were at the same crossroads between immortality and mortality and given the same choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to the Torah or death and a curse for disobedience, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice, which we have the free will to make. This is also way she is described as a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her (Proverbs 3:18).

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

1. a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
2. a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal God's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for there to be an associated will; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

Again, I've never seen anyone claim that free will refers to having a will without a host, so you are burning a straw man.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

There is nothing about God having a free will that mean that He fluctuates between good and evil.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

We can have the free will to choose between doing our own will or submitting our will to God's will.

 

[timothyu]

Mankind, like the heavenly host, has choice. The idea is to learn which choice is fruitful and which becomes destructive, which leads to life and which leads to death, so that we may use this knowledge of good and evil effectively rather than in ways we see misused daily on the news, actually then also recognizing the misused news system itself for what it is.

 

[Blade]

"THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL."

"NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL."

This is just no offense playing with the words "free will".

Phil 2:13
As one said God of course not only gives the will to please Him but also the ability. So verse 12 delineates human responsibility and approach is not "let go and let God" but "get in there with God". Paul exhorted the followers of Christ as if he were an Arminian. At the same time he prayed as if he were a Calvinist. Both approaches contain truth. In a sense Christians were saved the moment they believed. They are being saved as the holy Spirit applies the sanctification process to their lifes and they will be saved at the resurrection. Its what I get from 2:13.

Anyway since were not really touching this its not worth it. Its you that said in caps that alone we could get stuck on says allot but God cannot have a free will. It's also you that said no scripture states that man has a free will. Both times it was you and you did not prove it since you can't with out adding speculation.

 

[Kermos]

Having a free will does not refer to having a will that is free floating detached from a person, but to having a real choice between two or more options. Before Adam and Eve ate of either tree, they were at a crossroads between immortality and mortality, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil cause them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to become immortal, and they were given a choice of which tree to eat from. There are a number of ways that show that Eve's desire influenced her to eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3:6) and when our desire enters the picture, our knowledge of true and false becomes clouded into knowledge of Good and Evil, where we can no longer lean on our own understanding to certain if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it. This is where we have he choice of whether to lean on our own understanding or to trust in the Lord with all of our heart to correctly divide between true and false, in all of our ways acknowledge Him, and He will make our paths straight (Provers 3:1-6).

In short, the entire Bible is about whether we are going to choose to do our will or undo the damage caused by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil by submitting our will to God's will so that we can instead choose to eat from the Tree of Life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Israelis were at the same crossroads between immortality and mortality and given the same choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to the Torah or death and a curse for disobedience, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice, which we have the free will to make. This is also way she is described as a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her (Proverbs 3:18).


Again, I've never seen anyone claim that free will refers to having a will without a host, so you are burning a straw man.


There is nothing about God having a free will that mean that He fluctuates between good and evil.


We can have the free will to choose between doing our own will or submitting our will to God's will.

Free denotes:

1. of autonomy:
   1. (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
   2. (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
2. of property:
   1. (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
   2. (verb) give away, sacrifice.

We are not talking of property regarding free-will, so we can set our focus to autonomy regarding free-will.

Regarding people, Soyeong, from what does free-will have autonomy?

Let me rephrase the question. How is free-will untangled?

I'm asking the same question in both instances, and the free-willian answer is resoundingly "from God".

Now, I'm adding another question.

How is an autonomous will a part of a separate person?

I'm rephrasing this question. What fuses one autonomous thing (free-will) with a second encapsulating ownership autonomous thing (person) while maintaining the autonomy of both?

See that the "one autonomous thing (free-will)" is an inextricable part of the "second encapsulating ownership autonomous thing (person)".

I'm abstracting (focusing) at a layer above function. Where you wrote "We can have the free will to choose between doing our own will or submitting our will to God's will", that is about function.

I refer to the relationship between two things:

• one autonomous thing (free-will)
• second encapsulating ownership autonomous thing (person)

In this relationship, the primary thing (person) owns the subordinate integral thing (free-will).

And, we now encounter a collision.

In this case, all the following conditions apply equally (notice that I drop "free" from "will" here):

• the subordinate integral thing (will) is owned by the primary thing (person).
• the subordinate integral thing (will) cannot exist independently.

Based on these two conditions, the subordinate integral thing (will) is not an autonomous thing.

Essentially, the subordinate integral thing (will) is captive to the primary thing (person).

Conclusion, every person starts out with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), and the purpose is evident for Paul wrote "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14) indicating that free-will is illusory.

Let us consider the passages you mentioned:

• Genesis 3:6
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is absent.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil at the time he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the Word of God says man transitioned into knowing good and evil with "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22), so Adam did not free-will choose disobedience (see Romans 8:20-22).
  • Behold, Adam failed to choose God, so Adam is no example of man successfully free-will choosing God.
• Proverbs 3:1-6
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is absent.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), the passage indicates to NOT depend upon yourself, which includes your self-will Soyeong, but to completely depend upon God with "Trust in YHWH with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:5-6).
• Deuteronomy 30:15-20
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is in context of life in the promised land, but the word "choose" is not in the context of God.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), the Israelis could not choose God.
  • Behold, the Israelis failed to even choose life (see the book of Jeremiah, and Isaiah, and Ezekiel, and Hosea), so the Israelis are no example of man successfully free-will choosing God.
• Proverbs 3:18
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is absent.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), God causes us children of God to obey the command to take hold of Wisdom (Proverbs 3:18) for, behold, the Word of God says:
    • "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
    • "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

I find it interesting, that you would write "There is nothing about God having a free will that mean that He fluctuates between good and evil", yet you preach man has a free-will in the complete absence of any Scripture!

No scripture states that God has a free-will; furthermore, no scripture states that man was imparted free-will.

In fact, according to free-willian philosophy, man changes between good and evil via man's God-like free-will. Since man obtained man's God-like free-will from God, and because man changes between good and evil via man's God-like free-will, then the source of man's God-like free-will, God HIMSELF CHANGES between good and evil according to free-willian philosophy. Free-willian philosophy leads to such evil.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

God created killer whales, God created the movie makers of the movie Free Willy.

God has a Free Willy.

Furthermore, if we have it, God has it too.

It just might be displayed way differently because ... God doesn't sin.

 

[Kermos]

Mankind, like the heavenly host, has choice. The idea is to learn which choice is fruitful and which becomes destructive, which leads to life and which leads to death, so that we may use this knowledge of good and evil effectively rather than in ways we see misused daily on the news, actually then also recognizing the misused news system itself for what it is.

Wow, that a whole lot of your thoughts without one iota of scripture!

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Kermos]

"THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL."

"NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL."

This is just no offense playing with the words "free will".

Phil 2:13
As one said God of course not only gives the will to please Him but also the ability. So verse 12 delineates human responsibility and approach is not "let go and let God" but "get in there with God". Paul exhorted the followers of Christ as if he were an Arminian. At the same time he prayed as if he were a Calvinist. Both approaches contain truth. In a sense Christians were saved the moment they believed. They are being saved as the holy Spirit applies the sanctification process to their lifes and they will be saved at the resurrection. Its what I get from 2:13.

Anyway since were not really touching this its not worth it. Its you that said in caps that alone we could get stuck on says allot but God cannot have a free will. It's also you that said no scripture states that man has a free will. Both times it was you and you did not prove it since you can't with out adding speculation.

So, your version of Philippians 2:13 reads "it is you get in there with God to work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (the word of Blade) resulting in man doing something man cannot do because in Truth (John 14:6) God alone is the cause of man being and doing good for the Apostle wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Soyeong]

Free denotes:

1. of autonomy:
   1. (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
   2. (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
2. of property:
   1. (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
   2. (verb) give away, sacrifice.

We are not talking of property regarding free-will, so we can set our focus to autonomy regarding free-will.

Regarding people, Soyeong, from what does free-will have autonomy?

Let me rephrase the question. How is free-will untangled?

I'm asking the same question in both instances, and the free-willian answer is resoundingly "from God".

Now, I'm adding another question.

How is an autonomous will a part of a separate person?

I'm rephrasing this question. What fuses one autonomous thing (free-will) with a second encapsulating ownership autonomous thing (person) while maintaining the autonomy of both?

See that the "one autonomous thing (free-will)" is an inextricable part of the "second encapsulating ownership autonomous thing (person)".

I'm abstracting (focusing) at a layer above function. Where you wrote "We can have the free will to choose between doing our own will or submitting our will to God's will", that is about function.

I refer to the relationship between two things:

• one autonomous thing (free-will)
• second encapsulating ownership autonomous thing (person)

In this relationship, the primary thing (person) owns the subordinate integral thing (free-will).

And, we now encounter a collision.

In this case, all the following conditions apply equally (notice that I drop "free" from "will" here):

• the subordinate integral thing (will) is owned by the primary thing (person).
• the subordinate integral thing (will) cannot exist independently.

Based on these two conditions, the subordinate integral thing (will) is not an autonomous thing.

Essentially, the subordinate integral thing (will) is captive to the primary thing (person).

Conclusion, every person starts out with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), and the purpose is evident for Paul wrote "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14) indicating that free-will is illusory.

Let us consider the passages you mentioned:

• Genesis 3:6
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is absent.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil at the time he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because the Word of God says man transitioned into knowing good and evil with "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22), so Adam did not free-will choose disobedience (see Romans 8:20-22).
  • Behold, Adam failed to choose God, so Adam is no example of man successfully free-will choosing God.
• Proverbs 3:1-6
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is absent.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), the passage indicates to NOT depend upon yourself, which includes your self-will Soyeong, but to completely depend upon God with "Trust in YHWH with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:5-6).
• Deuteronomy 30:15-20
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is in context of life in the promised land, but the word "choose" is not in the context of God.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), the Israelis could not choose God.
  • Behold, the Israelis failed to even choose life (see the book of Jeremiah, and Isaiah, and Ezekiel, and Hosea), so the Israelis are no example of man successfully free-will choosing God.
• Proverbs 3:18
  • does not indicate free-will.
  • the word "choose" is absent.
  • in Truth (John 14:6), God causes us children of God to obey the command to take hold of Wisdom (Proverbs 3:18) for, behold, the Word of God says:
    • "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
    • "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

I find it interesting, that you would write "There is nothing about God having a free will that mean that He fluctuates between good and evil", yet you preach man has a free-will in the complete absence of any Scripture!

No scripture states that God has a free-will; furthermore, no scripture states that man was imparted free-will.

In fact, according to free-willian philosophy, man changes between good and evil via man's God-like free-will. Since man obtained man's God-like free-will from God, and because man changes between good and evil via man's God-like free-will, then the source of man's God-like free-will, God HIMSELF CHANGES between good and evil according to free-willian philosophy. Free-willian philosophy leads to such evil.

Again what you are arguing against as free will is not what people who believe in free will mean by it. There are many senses in which someone could be free, such as someone having the freedom to start a business, but not having the freedom to break the law. Free will is having a will that we are in control of to make choices that is free from the control of others. A robot only does what it is programmed to do, so it does not have a will of its own to make choices while we do have that freedom, so we have free will, and verses where we are are asked to making a choice like Deuteronomy 30:15-20 demonstrates that we have free will. Having autonomy means that we have the freedom to act on our own without being controlled by others. Having the freedom to act voluntarily means that Philemon 1:14 supports having free will. God has the freedom to choose how to act, so He has free will and again, there is nothing about God having free will that means that he changes between good and evil, but rather God chooses to do what is good.

 

[Kermos]

God created killer whales, God created the movie makers of the movie Free Willy.

God has a Free Willy.

Furthermore, if we have it, God has it too.

It just might be displayed way differently because ... God doesn't sin.

Now, you free-willians convey that man was NOT created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) because you say "It just might be displayed way differently because ... God doesn't sin" which means that you are now admitting that God did not impart ALL of God's attributes to man, so now see this:

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
   AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
   AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
   YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
   BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
   NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
   IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
   AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
   THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
   THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
   SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
   AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
   SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
   AND the firm fact is established
   THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
   1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
   2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
   3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
   4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianForums.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

you are now admitting that God did not impart ALL of God's attributes to man

Stop point here, God did indeed impart all of His attributes to Adam. This is why Jesus could be called the Son of God according to the Gospel of Luke.

The differentiation today is the effect of sin on our genetics over time.

Furthermore,

 

[fhansen]

People here on ChristianForums.com preach that God has a free-will, even recorded in the Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation? thread.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

The definition of free-will must be considered.

Free will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

1. a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
2. a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal God's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for there to be an associated will; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

No humility before God would be required to turn and bow to Him unless that turning were a choice. There’s no pride in choosing Jesus IOW. In fact, the pride that opposes God to begin with would be impossible unless for free will. If not for free will sin would be impossible, because if God determines our wills then only He would be responsible for our actions, not ourselves. And did God want Adam to eat of the fruit when He told him not to do so?

 

[Kermos]

Again what you are arguing against as free will is not what people who believe in free will mean by it.

The thoughts of free-willians do not reflect the Truth (John 14:6) because free-will does not appear in Scripture as a true thing; on the other hand, self-will is used as a true thing by the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2:9-10).

In Truth (John 14:6), the ONLY mention of free-will in the New Testament is done by Paul referring to free-will as illusory with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

Therefore, based on the Apostle Paul's writing, free-will is an illusion - free-will is a false thing - free-will is a tradition of men needing to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

There are many senses in which someone could be free, such as someone having the freedom to start a business,

A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).

The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the previous paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".

but not having the freedom to break the law.

Are you sure about that? Have you heard of anyone freely breaking the law as reported by the news lately?

Free will is having a will that we are in control of to make choices that is free from the control of others.

That free-will that you mention, from whom is that "free will" free? The free-willian philosophy dictates that free-will is free from God.

In Truth (John 14:6), that free-will is not free, because that will is captive to yourself which results in that will being Biblically referred to as "self-will" as per the Apostle Peter with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A robot only does what it is programmed to do, so it does not have a will of its own to make choices while we do have that freedom, so we have free will, and

I am blessed to be Kermos (from Greek, it's the word that comes to English as ceramic a product of clay) in Christ, and it is written "now, O YHWH, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand" (Isaiah 64:8):

does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.
(Romans 9:21-23)
​

A robot is lifeless and manufactured by man.

A person is alive and molded by God into a vessel of wrath (self-willed unbeliever) or a vessel of mercy (Christimage-willed believer). There are no other types of vessels.

verses where we are are asked to making a choice like Deuteronomy 30:15-20 demonstrates that we have free will. Having autonomy means that we have the freedom to act on our own without being controlled by others.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 fails to show free-will because the Israelis failed to even choose life (see the book of Jeremiah, and Isaiah, and Ezekiel, and Hosea), so the Israelis are no example of man successfully free-will choosing God.

Your autonomy means that you control yourself resulting in the fact that you are self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Having the freedom to act voluntarily means that Philemon 1:14 supports having free will.

Your heart's thoughts are "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be by compulsion but of your own free will" (the word of Soyeong), but the Apostle wrote not your heart's thoughts because in Truth (John 14:6) the Apostle wrote "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14) RESULTING IN FREE-WILL BEING NON-EXISTENT (SEE "IN EFFECT" IN PHILEMON 1:14) SO THE GOODNESS OF PHILEMON IS COMPULSION CONTROLLED BY GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT BECAUSE "THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS" (GALATIANS 5:22).

You are dead wrong with your words of "Having the freedom to act voluntarily means that Philemon 1:14 supports having free will" - notice that you are overriding the Apostles words with your words.

God has the freedom to choose how to act, so He has free will and again, there is nothing about God having free will that means that he changes between good and evil, but rather God chooses to do what is good.

Then man would always do good having the same free-will as God, but man does evil, so under free-willian philosophy God does evil because man has the same free-will as God.

Absolutely no scripture states God has a free-will, so your mindd's imagination is out of accord with the Word of God when you wrote "He has free will".

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Water and Fire]

Either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness... where is the free will in that? There isn't any... free will is just another false Church doctrine.

 

[IoanC]

Free-will is basically disobedience to God's Prefect and Sovereign Will. God does not tolerate disobedience in the created order. Satan got hell perhaps for this sin alone.

 

[Frank Sophia]

This is an erroneous notion...

The absolute union of God is unchanging, but in the example of the flood for instance God provides the rainbow to show his remorse and promise to never do similar again...

So it is not the manifest aspect of God that cannot change, here clearly his mind changed...

Jesus is another rainbow in a way because he is undoing the mistake of Levitical law due to it hardening the heart.

 

[Strong in Him]

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.



NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

No Scripture uses the phrase "free-willian", (which I doubt is even a word) - yet you use it liberally.

Many Scriptures speak of God's will - John 6:40, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, Romans 12:2. Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done."
Therefore, God has a will.
Is it free? Well who can make God do anything? Who is there who is greater than God and can force him to obey/choose/act?

And humans have wills - that is how we got into this mess in the first place. God did not force Adam to eat the fruit; he told him that it was his wish that he didn't eat it. Adam was free to eat, or not - he chose to disobey.
God invites his people ........... "Come, let us reason together", Isaiah 1:18 "Come to the waters ... come buy and eat", Isaiah 55:1 "come to me all who labour", Matthew 11:28, "come and see", John 1:39.
You were free to join this forum, you were free to write your thread; we are free to choose whether or not to answer it.

 

[Frank Sophia]

There is a lot of confusion around the difference between will and free will in this thread...

As oneness itself the divine will is naturally unitive...

What is called free will is merely our capacity to move closer to unity or away from it...

The decision is happiness or misery, which isn't much of a choice.

 

[Frank Sophia]

The sword of Christ rejects divisiveness...

Thus all is made one.

 

[Soyeong]

The thoughts of free-willians do not reflect the Truth (John 14:6) because free-will does not appear in Scripture as a true thing; on the other hand, self-will is used as a true thing by the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2:9-10).

In Truth (John 14:6), the ONLY mention of free-will in the New Testament is done by Paul referring to free-will as illusory with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

Therefore, based on the Apostle Paul's writing, free-will is an illusion - free-will is a false thing - free-will is a tradition of men needing to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

in John 14:6, we have a choice of whether or not to follow the way, the truth, and the life, so free does reflect the truth. We have an evil inclination and a good inclination and we have the free will to choose which one to follow. If we don't have a free will, then we would not have a self-will, so the fact that we have a self-will demonstrates that we have a free will. Saying that Paul wanted Philemon to act of his own free will is demonstrating that he has free will and that it is not illusory. Thinking that we have free will is not worshiping it.

A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from the captivity of communism), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).

The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the previous paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".

Are you sure about that? Have you heard of anyone freely breaking the law as reported by the news lately?

It is true that there are many senses in which someone could be free, where they have the freedom to do one thing, but not the freedom to do something else. One example of the is is someone having the freedom to start a business or not having the freedom to break the law. Pointing out that some people have do not have the freedom to start a business or have the freedom the break the law is missing the point.

That free-will that you mention, from whom is that "free will" free? The free-willian philosophy dictates that free-will is free from God.

In Truth (John 14:6), that free-will is not free, because that will is captive to that person's self which results in that will being Biblically referred to as "self-will" as per the Apostle Peter with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I stated that free will is having a will that we are in control of to make choices that is free from the control of others, so "others" would include not being controlled by God. We have a free will that is controlled by us, but not controlled by others, so there are different sense in which it is free. I've never seen someone who believes in free will claim that it is free from our own control, so you are arguing against position that no one holds.

I am blessed to be Kermos (from Greek, it's the word that comes to English as ceramic a product of clay) in Christ, and it is written "now, O YHWH, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand" (Isaiah 64:8):

​

does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.​

(Romans 9:21-23)​

​

A robot is lifeless and manufactured by man.

A person is alive and molded by God into a vessel of wrath (self-willed unbeliever) or a vessel of mercy (Christimage-willed believer). There are no other types of vessels.

The fact God is the potter and we are the clay does not mean that we do not have free will.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 fails to show free-will because the Israelis failed to even choose life (see the book of Jeremiah, and Isaiah, and Ezekiel, and Hosea), so the Israelis are no example of man successfully free-will choosing God.

Your autonomy means that you control yourself resulting in the fact that you are self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Israelites went through redemption cycles where the majority chose life while the others did not, so they had the free will to make that choice. Our autonomy means that we have to freedom to do our will or the will of others.

Your heart's thoughts are "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be by compulsion but of your own free will" (the word of Soyeong), but the Apostle wrote not your heart's thoughts because in Truth (John 14:6) the Apostle wrote "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14) RESULTING IN FREE-WILL BEING NON-EXISTENT (IN EFFECT) SO THE GOODNESS OF PHILEMON IS COMPULSION CONTROLLED BY GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT BECAUSE "THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS" (GALATIANS 5:22).

You are dead wrong with your words of "Having the freedom to act voluntarily means that Philemon 1:14 supports having free will" - notice that you are overriding the Apostles words with your words.

Paul did not want Philemon to act out of compulsion, but in accord with his free will, so that fully supports him having free will. If Philemon could only act by the compulsion of others, then that would support him not having free will. I've said nothing to override Paul's words.

Then man would always do good having the same free-will as God, but man does evil, so under free-willian philosophy God does evil because man has the same free-will as God.

Absolutely no scripture states God has a free-will, so your mindd's imagination is out of accord with the Word of God when you wrote "He has free will".

As the original post shows richly in scripture, there is no such thing as free-will, but self-will exists leading to damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

We have the free will to choose to do good or evil just as God does. The fact that we can use our free will to choose to do evil does not mean that God does evil, so again you are attacking your misunderstanding of free will. A word or a phrase can refer to a concept that is taught by the Bible even if the Bible does not use that term or phrase. God has the freedom to make choices that are free from the control of others, so He has free will regardless of whether or not that is directly stated in the Bible.