The Two Witnesses.

[garee]

the highlighted part is important. Ezekiel's Temple is the measure of a man also. Our body is the Temple of the living God through the 3rd person of the Trinity. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

It can be difficult to distinquish between the literal/practical and the spiritual. Maybe all 3, not sure.

Yes using the things seen the temporal to give us the unseen understanding of faith, the eternal, the signified language of parables.

I would offer. It would seem the gospel is represented in Genesis 2. using the garden before God cornuted it and his glory departed .

Using rivers to represent the water of the word going out to the whole world the four corners .East, West, North and South

Pison meaning. . "She knows" and that which surrounds the land as the city of Christ . . Havilah "meaning one suffers pain", that brings forth.

Genesis 2:10-12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And a river is going out from Eden to water the garden, and from thence it is parted, and hath become four chief rivers; the name of the one is Pison, it is that which is surrounding the whole land of the Havilah where the gold is, and the gold of that land is good, there is the bdolach and the shoham stone;

 

[Randy777]

Interesting. Tho imo, if the 2 witnesses are indeed men, i would say that these 2 would be Enoch and Elijah. For Hebrews 9:27 states "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". If Moses were to be one of the 2 witnesses that would mean he would experience death twice. Whereas the only 2 men favored by God that I am aware of who have yet to experience death are Enoch and Elijah. This is just my opinion.

There are problems with that assumption. First -God does all that He is pleased to do.
Lazarus come forth. I suppose you think he didn't die again by your reasoning "die once" can't be over ruled by Gods own authority.

The facts are that the two witnesses as testified to in Rev 11 were not identified by God. I don't think Enoch and Elijah will suddenly appear on earth again in bodies of the dust of the earth just so they can die once. They pleased God and God took them alive to heaven.

Rather I think two from among the living in those days will be appointed by God. More than likely set aside at birth for Gods task just as Paul was.

 

[garee]

There are problems with that assumption. First -God does all that He is pleased to do.
Lazarus come forth. I suppose you think he didn't die again by your reasoning "die once" can't be over ruled by Gods own authority.

The facts are that the two witnesses as testified to in Rev 11 were not identified by God. I don't think Enoch and Elijah will suddenly appear on earth again in bodies of the dust of the earth just so they can die once. They pleased God and God took them alive to heaven.

Rather I think two from among the living in those days will be appointed by God. More than likely set aside at birth for Gods task just as Paul was.

I would offer. To die is a word that must be defined . In one way the letter of the law death describes those who are corrupted they die never to rise to new spirit life. The sufferings as dying..(hell) of this world have ended .

And dead as was Lazarus and Jesus are those who did rise. Their bodies were prevented from corrupting all the way . The father who strengthened by his unseen Spirit worked in both Lazarus and Jesus .

The disciples were confused at first.

Death itself as the letter of the law signified by Moses will be cast into the judgment fire on the last day .It will not rise and condemn through corruption another entire creation .

Until then not one jot or tittle could be removed. Moses was used as one that will not enter the propmised land but he is there dead asleep waiting for the last day when all will receive the propmised new incorruptible body.( Hebrew 11:38 )

 

[Randy777]

I would offer. To die is a word that must be defined . In one way the letter of the law death describes those who are corrupted they die never to rise to new spirit life. The sufferings as dying..(hell) of this world have ended .

And dead as was Lazarus and Jesus are those who did rise. Their bodies were prevented from corrupting all the way . The father who strengthened by his unseen Spirit worked in both Lazarus and Jesus .

The disciples were confused at first.

Death itself as the letter of the law signified by Moses will be cast into the judgment fire on the last day .It will not rise and condemn through corruption another entire creation .

Until then not one jot or tittle could be removed. Moses was used as one that will not enter the propmised land but he is there dead asleep waiting for the last day when all will receive the propmised new incorruptible body.( Hebrew 11:38 )

Its clear to me man is mortal and to die once is the death of the body. As a believer in Christ though we should die yet shall we live and never die.

 

[garee]

There are problems with that assumption. First -God does all that He is pleased to do.
Lazarus come forth. I suppose you think he didn't die again by your reasoning "die once" can't be over ruled by Gods own authority.

The facts are that the two witnesses as testified to in Rev 11 were not identified by God. I don't think Enoch and Elijah will suddenly appear on earth again in bodies of the dust of the earth just so they can die once. They pleased God and God took them alive to heaven.

Rather I think two from among the living in those days will be appointed by God. More than likely set aside at birth for Gods task just as Paul was.

I would agree Lazarus was used in a parable pointing to the last day under the Sun when all believers will be raised and receive their new incorruptible bodies. all die not receiving it.(Hebrew 11:38)

It would seem Peter our brother in the Lord was seduced by that kind of delusion every time he denied Christ.

When a vision was given to represent the work of the father and Son working .Peter desired to make tabernacles as if it was flesh and blood. using Moses and Elijah who did represent all things written in the law and the prophets the perfect law. .The living abiding word of God.

On one occasion right after being reinstated . Peter got his eyes off of Jesus and looked a John and again walked by sight after the temporal things seen . He went to town and started a oral tradition of the fathers saying. . Jesus said John would not experience the first death.

Jesus worked and corrected the lie as a oral tradition of men, And said if every time he had to do the work of dispelling the oral traditions of men .The whole world would not be able to hold the books that could be written.

John21:21-25 Peter having seen this one, saith to Jesus, `Lord, and what of this one?' Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what -- to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die, yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what -- to thee?' this is the disciple who is testifying concerning these things, and he wrote these things, and we have known that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things -- as many as Jesus did -- which, if they may be written one by one, not even the world itself I think to have place for the books written.
Amen.

One warning against the oral traditions of men called fathers would seem all that is necessary .

 

[Randy777]

I would agree Lazarus was used in a parable pointing to the last day under the Sun when all believers will be raised and receive their new incorruptible bodies. all die not receiving it.(Hebrew 11:38)

It would seem Peter our brother in the Lord was seduced by that kind of delusion every time he denied Christ.

When a vision was given to represent the work of the father and Son working .Peter desired to make tabernacles as if it was flesh and blood. using Moses and Elijah who did represent all things written in the law and the prophets the perfect law. .The living abiding word of God.

On one occasion right after being reinstated . Peter got his eyes off of Jesus and looked a John and again walked by sight after the temporal things seen . He went to town and started a oral tradition of the fathers saying. . Jesus said John would not experience the first death.

Jesus worked and corrected the lie as a oral tradition of men, And said if every time he had to do the work of dispelling the oral traditions of men .The whole world would not be able to hold the books that could be written.

John21:21-25 Peter having seen this one, saith to Jesus, `Lord, and what of this one?' Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what -- to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die, yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what -- to thee?' this is the disciple who is testifying concerning these things, and he wrote these things, and we have known that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things -- as many as Jesus did -- which, if they may be written one by one, not even the world itself I think to have place for the books written.
Amen.

One warning against the oral traditions of men called fathers would seem all that is necessary .

I did not use Lazarus as a parable but to show God is not bound to "we are appointed once to die then face judgment". He has no need to send back Enoch and Elijah to die. They pleased Him and He took them up to heaven alive. Just as those alive at the 2nd coming will be caught up and clothed with immortality.

The Lord didn't use Lazarus as a parable. He was glad He was not there to heal Lazarus so He could raise him up from the dead as a witness to all that they might believe in Him.

 

[garee]

I did not use Lazarus as a parable but to show God is not bound to "we are appointed once to die then face judgment". He has no need to send back Enoch and Elijah to die. They pleased Him and He took them up to heaven alive. Just as those alive at the 2nd coming will be caught up and clothed with immortality.

The Lord didn't use Lazarus as a parable. He was glad He was not there to heal Lazarus so He could raise him up from the dead as a witness to all that they might believe in Him.

Sorry, but I think parables are used to teach us how to walk by faith the eternal not seen . The example with Lazarus dead asleep one more day that Jesus required the disciples to do the work of removing the grave clothes in that way we love each other as Christ not seen loved the church.

The three day demonstration called the heart of the earth or the belly of the whale. It would appear the father removed the grave clothes and rolled away the stone to demonstrate salvation is the work of two working together in perfect harmony and mutual submission .The father in a greater position as one who strengthen the Son of man, jesus to finish the work .The government of peace that surpasses our understand given us His.

It would seem he has given us a 20/20 prescription for finishing the unseen understanding hid in parables. Again to teach us how to walk by faith as The Spirit gives us ears to hear his understanding. The kind of food the disciples at first knew not of doing the will of the unseen father as di the Son of man, Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

 

[Randy777]

Sorry, but I think parables are used to teach us how to walk by faith the eternal not seen . The example with Lazarus dead asleep one more day that Jesus required the disciples to do the work of removing the grave clothes in that way we love each other as Christ not seen loved the church.

The three day demonstration called the heart of the earth or the belly of the whale. It would appear the father removed the grave clothes and rolled away the stone to demonstrate salvation is the work of two working together in perfect harmony and mutual submission .The father in a greater position as one who strengthen the Son of man, jesus to finish the work .The government of peace that surpasses our understand given us His.

It would seem he has given us a 20/20 prescription for finishing the unseen understanding hid in parables. Again to teach us how to walk by faith as The Spirit gives us ears to hear his understanding. The kind of food the disciples at first knew not of doing the will of the unseen father as di the Son of man, Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

I am not denying parables. I didn't use Lazarus as a parable as I stated. I also don't view the accounting in the NT about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead as a parable given. If you want that's fine with me.

 

[Marilyn C]

I am not denying parables. I didn't use Lazarus as a parable as I stated. I also don't view the accounting in the NT about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead as a parable given. If you want that's fine with me.

Hi Randy,

Had you thought that when people die they do not have bodies? They are only spirits. Thus that is a parable for the rich man was thirsty, but in reality he did not have a body that thirsted. The Lord was revealing that `thirst` which is of the spirit, thirsting for `life,` thirsting for a real body etc.

 

[Randy777]

Hi Randy,

Had you thought that when people die they do not have bodies? They are only spirits. Thus that is a parable for the rich man was thirsty, but in reality he did not have a body that thirsted. The Lord was revealing that `thirst` which is of the spirit, thirsting for `life,` thirsting for a real body etc.

Wrong Lazarus.
I introduced this to show God is not bound to, "man is appointed to die once then face judgment".

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

 

[Marilyn C]

Wrong Lazarus.
I introduced this to show God is not bound to, "man is appointed to die once then face judgment".

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

Sorry I thought you were talking about a parable.

 

[garee]

I am not denying parables. I didn't use Lazarus as a parable as I stated. I also don't view the accounting in the NT about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead as a parable given. If you want that's fine with me.

Thanks no offence intended.
I understand that is my personal understanding. I have a habit of looking for the gospel meanings as a lesson. Another way of looking at things.

 

[garee]

Wrong Lazarus.
I introduced this to show God is not bound to, "man is appointed to die once then face judgment".

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

That call would seem to represent the same born again call to salvation. The judgment has already been made, the first death. Dead bodies will not be raised and judged..

The commandment to remove the grave clothes was the responsibility of his new brother and sisters. On the last day under the Sun the wake up call "rise " and receive the promised new incorruptible body which no one has received, all die not receiving it.

Hebrew111:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

 

[garee]

Hi Randy,

Had you thought that when people die they do not have bodies? They are only spirits. Thus that is a parable for the rich man was thirsty, but in reality he did not have a body that thirsted. The Lord was revealing that `thirst` which is of the spirit, thirsting for `life,` thirsting for a real body etc.

I would agree and add. He was seeking the dead as disembodied workers with familiar spirits, necromancy . Like that of Saul in the Old Testament.

God had cut him off from all forms of communication and sent him a strong delusion to believe the lie

The unbelieving Jew used to represent faithless humanity would have nothing to do with all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

In that way no man could serve two teaching masters. Those who die in Christ sleep until the last day when they will revive the new bodies..

They no longer have any part under the Sun . Now while we are still breathing we can offer the good works he works in us with us according to the power of His name. . The better thing that acompanies salvation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I had another interesting thought after reflecting on this thread.

Three appeared to Abraham. They broke bread.

One remained.

Two went to Sodom.

They struck some of the inhabitants blind.

They rescued Lot and his family.

Sodom was totally destroyed.

Is it possible that these are in fact the 'two witnesses' that will return again?

 

[Marilyn C]

I had another interesting thought after reflecting on this thread.

Three appeared to Abraham. They broke bread.

One remained.

Two went to Sodom.

They struck some of the inhabitants blind.

They rescued Lot and his family.

Sodom was totally destroyed.

Is it possible that these are in fact the 'two witnesses' that will return again?

Hi Carl,

And so what would those two angels `witness` of - activity in Sodom, Lot rescued? That is not what the two MEN, Moses and Elijah will be witnessing, but of the Lord and His activity.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi Carl,

And so what would those two angels `witness` of - activity in Sodom, Lot rescued? That is not what the two MEN, Moses and Elijah will be witnessing, but of the Lord and His activity.

I appreciate your fixed views on this - I was just throwing another possibility into the ring...

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

The two witnesses may be the two "faithful" churches from Revelation 2-3 that were under immense persecution. Perhaps churches like the church in China, for example.

I believe Revelation was written as a "then, now, and later" book.

 

[Marilyn C]

I appreciate your fixed views on this - I was just throwing another possibility into the ring...

Thanks Carl.

 

[Marilyn C]

The two witnesses may be the two "faithful" churches from Revelation 2-3 that were under immense persecution. Perhaps churches like the church in China, for example.

I believe Revelation was written as a "then, now, and later" book.

We can write a lot of maybe`s but I prefer to stick to what God has written in His word. Sorry if you see differently.