The Two Baptisms of the New Testament - Water and the Holy Spirit

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Thief on the cross was an un-baptized false convert then according to you but Jesus said otherwise.

There are 7 dispensations of time in the Bible when Jesus walked the earth that was the 5th a transitioning period from law to grace (hence the whole sabbath day thing/ tithing/etc stuff that was still going on), the grace period we live in took place after Jesus died and rose from the cross... the age of the church. Baptism according to Romans 6:3 or so is symbolic of being buried with christ. Get it? How could one be baptized in which according to acts 22:16 washes away sins... if he didn’t die for sin yet? So during that time period baptism wasnt a mandate... just like Holy Ghost reception wasn’t a mandate which allows us to be adopted into then body of Christ. The prophecy of Joel of being filled with the Spirit... just like with baptism... didn’t become a mandate until post Jesus death because Holy Ghost reception allows us to be adopted into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12). But again how could we be adopted into body until he died and rose for us? Acts 2:38 didn’t become a mandate until the grace period.

 

[swordsman1]

I would like to give the benefit of the doubt to those who change words like "by", "with" and "in" as they see fit scripture to scripture. But you do have to wonder if it might not be a purposeful tinkering with the Word of God as dictated by the Holy Spirit in the scriptures.

For instance - The 1 Cor. 12:13 verse pointedly tells us that all believers are baptized "by" the Spirit. But I notice that when it was referenced by someone earlier it was rather pointedly said that it showed that "all" believers have been baptized "in" the Holy Spirit.

"By","in","on" and "with" are all the same word in the Greek (ἐν).

 

[swordsman1]

Ahh.. no.

Look at those passages you quoted.. it does not say all believers.. those passages all say the saved have the holy Spirit. not all believers are saved. Act2:38 was a one off as the op clearly points out it is possible to be baptised without receiving the Holy Spirit. Eph1 also speaks to a specific group of people that Paul himself saw to the salvation and receiving of the Holy Spirit. Because again clearly it is possible to be baptised in Christ as the op points out and not have the spirit. You can not ignore one passage for the sake of keeping a church doctrine intact

All believers receive the Spirit when they believe...

Galatians 3:2 "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"

Ephesians 1:13 "When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"

Galatians 3:14 "Christ redeemed us.... so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith."

Galatians 5:5 "For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope."

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

Acts 2:38 "Repent....and you will receive the gift of the Spirit".​

 

[swordsman1]

And at what point were they baptized with the Holy Ghost?

When they believed and became part of the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."​

 

[Hillsage]

I received Baptism and Chrismation as religious rituals, because Jesus Christ and the Apostles practiced religious rituals, having instituted them in His Church because God designed humankind in such a way that we do well to observe such rituals. My "spiritual reality" is not separated from human reality, which is both spiritual and physical, because I still observe the rituals that God gave to us, which are great gifts and blessings to us.

My Baptism and Christmation occurred within minutes of one another.

And I received 'religious rituals' devoid of 'spiritual reality', but also instituted by the church which said, as you are, that they were also doing that which the apostles practiced in 'spiritual realities'.

I say what I received was a dead ritual and not living reality for me, because I was never 'born again' with my infant baptism which was not preceded by "believe and be baptized", and also because I never experienced anything spiritually upon my 12 year old confirmation either. I feel like the 'ritual' has mostly replaced the 'reality' in the church today. Not that something truly real can't happen in some of the ritualistic with some of the people. I have no doubt my Roman Catholic mom actually got born again at her confirmation as a nun led her into that living reality experience by sharing a salvation message before her confirmation ritual that day. But my dad, on the other hand, went to his grave just as 'baptized' and 'confirmed' BUT....even as my brother who received Christ at age 36 expressed to me (aged 48) when he said; "D, it is obvious to me now, that what 'we' have received...Dad never had." I responded with, I totally agree.

At age 22 I truly had a 'spiritual reality' experience in the rebirth of my spirit and 6 months later I EXPERIENCED a 'spiritual reality' with the baptism of spiritual power as it was poured out on me by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

Water baptism is an archetytpe of the birth process and of Spiritual rebirth.
Jesus did enough. Do you neeed to add to what Jesus did for your salvation?

The short answer is no. Do you want the long answer?

 

[Saint Steven]

From antiquity, the sealing with the Holy Spirit has been called Chrismation and customarily involves annointing the newly baptized believers with oil, even though in this particular instance Peter and John merely layed their hands on them.

I have been Baptized and Chrismated, so yes.

Thanks, that's very informative. Much appreciated.
Did you have any manifestations of the Holy Spirit when you were Chrismated?
By manifestations I mean spiritual gifts. Tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge/wisdom, visions, etc.

---- EDIT ----
I just realized that you were probably talking about infant baptism of which you have no memory. Maybe you can talk about what that means to you now?

 

[Saint Steven]

Actually brother, rethink your position based upon our recent posts. (Remembering brackets [the] means added by man and talking about holy spirit power, and an underlined the in any verse I quote means in the Greek when talking about the person). And since you know what I'm talking about, I'm not wasting time with others if they want to argue from their paradigm. So, when I quote scripture I may just leave off the capitalization like a correct interpretation would do, based upon the grammar I've told you about.

Having said that, I want you to consider that it may be you who is not distinguishing the spirit of Christ which is IN us as opposed to the holy spirit power which comes ON us, just like it came upon Jesus when the only holy spirit he had was the holy spirit of Christ in Jesus at his baptism.

I know you don't have a problem believing that 'the gifts of the Spirit' in 1 Corinthians 12 are not 'The Holy Spirit', but 'holy spirit power' gifts/manifestations from the Spirit which He manifests as He wills, as His power flows through us.

Jesus had a holy spirit within Him, which was the spirit of Christ. It is that same spirit that you receive/decomai when your spirit is 'born again'. But Jesus never did any miracles until He received/lambano The Holy Spirit which came upon Him and flowed holy spirit power through Him whenever the Holy Spirit manifested supernaturally through Jesus. But The Holy Spirit as a person, was upon Him according to scripture and NOT IN HIM.

VERSES DEALING WITH 'WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT' was with Jesus.

MAT 3:16 ...[the] Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Definite article above was added by man, but unnecessary, because which/whose spirit was already determined by the associated noun "God".

MAT 12:18 Behold my servant, whom... I will put my Spirit upon him,

Once again "my" predetermines we're talking about God's Spirit upon Jesus.

LUK 4:18 [The] Spirit of [the] Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me...

So the 'spirit of the Lord' (the Lord's spirit) came upon 'the Lord Jesus'??? Say what??? What Lord, and what's the sSpirit difference, not being explained in this verse? 'The Spirit' which came upon the man Jesus is the same Spirit which made Him Lord. He wasn't even called 'Lord Jesus' until long after His baptism of holy spirit power from 'The Spirit' (person). The proof of the fact that He was Lord, was the manifested 'spirit power' which flowed through Him, from The Holy Spirit which was upon Him whenever he preformed miracles, cast out demons etc.

JOH 1:32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 ...the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with [the] holy ghost (power).

In this verse the definite article in Greek is necessary because there is no other point of grammar to distinguish whether we're talking about the person of The Spirit or just spirit power FROM The Spirit.

Now SSteve, provide a verse saying The Holy Spirit was in Jesus. Don't show me a verse with a capitalized S and say that's proof, because it is not. It may be the Christ spirit of Jesus which scribes falsely capitalized because they aren't as spiritually sharp as they think.

I'll stop here. And unfortunately, for me, your thread is moving pretty fast.

I pretty clear on my position. And probably won't trash it based on a mistranslation or two.

In reference to the Holy Spirit...
What did the disciples have before Pentecost?
What did the disciples have after Pentecost?
What were they waiting for in the upper room that they didn't already have?
(devil's advocate question)

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[wheelgirl]

I have always wondered this myself. I only know that I have had the water baptism.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have always wondered this myself. I only know that I have had the water baptism.

What questions do you have about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?

 

[wheelgirl]

What questions do you have about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit?

How do you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how do you know that you have got it?

 

[Saint Steven]

How do you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how do you know that you have got it?

If you ask Jesus, or God, he will give it to you. The answer to the second question is more difficult to answer. Some people have manifestations (gifts from) the Holy Spirit right away, other take longer to show up. Don't be discouraged if nothing seems to happen. It will come. It helps to read 1 Corinthians chapter 12 to know what the gifts (manifestations) are. Then you will know what to look for. I hope that helps. Let me know if you have other questions. Thanks.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

 

[swordsman1]

I pretty clear on my position. And probably won't trash it based on a mistranslation or two.

In reference to the Holy Spirit...
What did the disciples have before Pentecost?
What did the disciples have after Pentecost?
What were they waiting for in the upper room that they didn't already have?
(devil's advocate question)

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Although Jesus blew on the disciples in John 20:22, it doesn't say they received the Holy Spirit at that point. In John 15:26-27 and John 16:7 Jesus specifically says the disciples would not receive the Holy Spirit while He was with them, but that He would only send the Spirit once he had returned to the Father. If they received the Spirit when Jesus blew on them, then Jesus was lying in these verses:

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."

John 15:26-27 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.​

Notice it says when they received the Spirit they would testify of Christ, and that only happened after Pentecost.

 

[wheelgirl]

If you ask Jesus, or God, he will give it to you. The answer to the second question is more difficult to answer. Some people have manifestations (gifts from) the Holy Spirit right away, other take longer to show up. Don't be discouraged if nothing seems to happen. It will come. It helps to read 1 Corinthians chapter 12 to know what the gifts (manifestations) are. Then you will know what to look for. I hope that helps. Let me know if you have other questions. Thanks.

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Thank you. I have read that part of the bible a few times and know of people who do have the gift of speaking in tongues. The bible says the Holy Spirit came upon them from the laying of the hands... i have been told to pray for it to happen and so I have and nothing had happened. Should I keep praying for it without ceasing? Also 1 Cor 12:8-10 says "To some people the Spirit gives...... To others the same Spirit gives...." This shows the spirit doesn't give the same gift to all. But, yeah, for some they know their gifts, whilst others are still trying to find theirs... maybe, it has not been revealed to them until God believes we are ready to use it? hmmm interesting..

 

[swordsman1]

How do you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how do you know that you have got it?

You are baptized in the Spirit when you believe in Jesus and become part of the body of Christ. We know we have it because 1 Cor 12:13 says so.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Thank you. I have read that part of the bible a few times and know of people who do have the gift of speaking in tongues. The bible says the Holy Spirit came upon them from the laying of the hands... i have been told to pray for it to happen and so I have and nothing had happened. Should I keep praying for it without ceasing? Also 1 Cor 12:8-10 says "To some people the Spirit gives...... To others the same Spirit gives...." This shows the spirit doesn't give the same gift to all. But, yeah, for some they know their gifts, whilst others are still trying to find theirs... maybe, it has not been revealed to them until God believes we are ready to use it? hmmm interesting..

If you asked for it you don't need to ask again. Just believe that you got what you asked for.

Think of it like a seed planted. Give it time to grow at its own rate. You will probably have tongues as a prayer language. You could work on receiving that.

Open your mouth and see what comes. You might need to "prime the pump" with a few groans. Or pray along with your friends that pray in tongues. You could call them up and tell them you want to work on it. I'm not saying you should create something on your own, but you will need to get used to praying that way. It is unusual at first, but very natural after that. It's fun really.

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

 

[wheelgirl]

You are baptized in the Spirit when you believe in Jesus and become part of the body of Christ. We know we have it because 1 Cor 12:13 says so.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.​

Yes we are baptised into one body. So it is enough to be baptised under water only which symbolises the burial of the flesh... or is there more to be received?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes we are baptised into one body. So it is enough to be baptised under water only which symbolises the burial of the flesh... or is there more to be received?

Mr. Swordsman is trying to rob you of a wonderful blessing. He aspires to a common belief called Cessationism which claims that the miracle gifts are ceased. But you know better.

 

[swordsman1]

Thank you. I have read that part of the bible a few times and know of people who do have the gift of speaking in tongues. The bible says the Holy Spirit came upon them from the laying of the hands... i have been told to pray for it to happen and so I have and nothing had happened. Should I keep praying for it without ceasing? Also 1 Cor 12:8-10 says "To some people the Spirit gives...... To others the same Spirit gives...." This shows the spirit doesn't give the same gift to all. But, yeah, for some they know their gifts, whilst others are still trying to find theirs... maybe, it has not been revealed to them until God believes we are ready to use it? hmmm interesting..

You are quite correct, not everyone had the gift of tongues. Scripture makes that clear. What people call tongues today does not match the biblical description of the gift. The only description is found in Acts 2 - miraculously speaking in known foreign languages.

 

[swordsman1]

Yes we are baptised into one body. So it is enough to be baptised under water only which symbolises the burial of the flesh... or is there more to be received?

We are commanded to be repeatedly "filled" with the Spirit which is yielding to the Spirit and coming under His influence. It will result in joy and thanksgiving.

Eph 5:18-20 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to [n]God, even the Father;"​

The disciples were repeatedly filled with the Spirit and it also gave them great boldness.