A-Mil Only The Truth Of The Rapture

[ebedmelech]

There's always a VERBAL war of believers the rapture and when it is. These are the prevalent views:

*Pre-trib rapture

*Post trib rapture

*Mid trib rapture

What's interesting is Jesus didn't teach ANYTHING except resurrection ON THE LAST DAY.

That is what the apostles taught also! Unfortunately there are all these views, when the fact is the rapture occurs during the resurrection...and it catches away those believers alive when Christ returns!


The rapture is pretty clear when understood properly. It's fully described in 1 Corinthians 15:20-58! At verse 50 Paul describes how the resurrection, (which includes the rapture)...happens.

There are many who are taught and think there's a difference in 1 Corinthians 15:20-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 based on faulty interpretation. If both passages are read properly the latter is a brief description of the resurrection, where the former is a fuller description of the resurrection.

The resurrection includes the rapture on THE LAST DAY when Christ appears. The dead in Christ a raised first, followed by living believers being caught up to Christ.

That is the resurrection! It includes the the rapture. Those who follow the so called pretrib rapture cannot CLEARLY show it in scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14 makes it real clear this is the resurrection:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

The apostle is addressing the Thessalonians saints about their concern for those believers who have DIED! Paul is simply giving a more brief description than he does in 1 Corinthians 15.

I edit to add a portion of an article where Greg Bahnsen speaks about this very subject. At the end, I will provide the link:


When shall the saints be raptured from earth to meet their Lord? When shall believers be “caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” ever to be with Him (I Thess. 4:17)? The passage just cited makes it clear that the rapture coincides with (1) the resurrection of the saints (vv. 1316, and “together with them” in v. 17), and (2) the coming of the Lord from heaven (v. 16). Scripture elsewhere clarifies when these two events shall occur.

First, the resurrection of the saints will occur at the coming of Christ, which itself brings the end (I Cor. 15:23-24). Christ declares that he will raise us again on the last day (John 6:39-40, 44, 54). Moreover, the saints and the wicked shall exist together on earth until the “harvest” day of God’s judgment on the “tares” (Matt. 13:24-30); the redeemed and the wicked will not be separated from each other until the end of the age (Matt. 13:47-50). Therefore, the resurrection of the saints must coincide with the resurrection of the wicked (one following closely upon the other); when the believers come forth unto the resurrection of life, at that time all in the tombs will as well come forth, including the wicked who are raised to judgment (John 5:26-29). We see, then, that there is no significant gap between the rapture of the saints, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the resurrection and judgment of the wicked, and the end of the age.

Secondly, the coming of the Lord mentioned in I Thes. 4:16 is also called the “day of our Lord Jesus Christ” when the saints shall be found unreprovable; this day coincides with the end (I Cor. 1:7-8). Moreover, the coming of the Lord mentioned in I Thess. 4:16 will bring the glorification of the saints (cf. Rom. 8:17, 23;I Cor. 15:43; Phil. 3:21; I John 3:2). Paul brings together the return of Christ and the glorification of the saints in 2 Thes. 1:710; he there makes it quite clear that these two events will be accompanied by the judgment of the wicked. This confirms what we read elsewhere, to wit, that when Christ establishes his bar of eternal judgment, all mankind including both the sheep and the goats (i.e., the redeemed and the reprobate) will be judged (Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46). We see, then, that there is no significant gap between the rapture of the saints, the coming of the Lord, the glorification of the saints, the general judgment of mankind (including the wicked), and the end of the age.

We must conclude from God’s word that the rapture will not eventuate prior to the very last day of history, that it will not leave behind the world of the wicked, and that it will not separated from the resurrection and judgment of the wicked. The pre-tribulational rapture seven (or three and a half) years before the Lord’s return is contrary to the teaching of the bible. Furthermore, it must be noted that the rapture of the saints will be anything but a secret event; it will be accompanied with the shout of Christ, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God (I Thess. 4:1617). Nobody will miss it.

Consequently, the Christian is not forced to choose between a humanistic affirmation of history and a biblical retreat from history. His perspective on history and his hope for it are found in neither divinized politics nor the rapture. A positive view of Scripture and a positive view of history go hand in hand. Prior to the resurrection of the saints (i.e., the defeat of the last enemy, death) Christ must reign till he has put every other enemy under his feet (I Cor. 15:25-26). Radical and dispensational theologians alike fail to see that in history prior to the parousia, the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (Rev. 11:15). This vision and hope indeed has consequences!

That is a well done treatment of when the rapture is, which is during the resurrection.

Link:
http://www.reformationonline.com/rapture.htm

 

[Gideon]

... the fact is the rapture occurs during the resurrection...and it catches away those believers alive when Christ returns!

I never knew anyone believed otherwise. I just thought that some rabbited on and on about the rapture part, and never found the resurrection aspect of the same event interesting enough to mention.

 

[ebedmelech]

I never knew anyone believed otherwise. I just thought that some rabbited on and on about the rapture part, and never found the resurrection aspect of the same event interesting enough to mention.

Brother...it's a very dominant view in America among Christians. I used to believe it simply because that's what I was taught in bible study.

It was when a began to read and study on my own, that I began to question it. I finally came to the conclusion it's not taught in scripture. It's contrived using scripture.

 

[keras]

A pre Trib, or pre wrath rapture to heaven seems to be prevalent among Christians everywhere.
What is parroted by them is 'we are not appointed to wrath', what they fail to see is this means protection on earth, not removal to anywhere, let alone to heaven.
I constantly ask for those stuck on this false theory to provide a verse, just one would do, that actually says people will be taken to live in heaven. They can't do it because there isn't one. The whole rapture to heaven idea is based on surmise, guesswork, lies and wishful thinking.

The OP is correct, thanks Ebed.

 

[keras]

The Occult Roots Of The Rapture Cult :
When pop apologists glibly claim the pre-tribulation rapture was taught down through the ages, they make a complete mockery of mountains of historical data, which is the turf of the scholars. In Part I of the present work, I mentioned the historic British denominational struggles are directly related to our probe of doctrinal origins, but few of today’s modern prognosticators of pre-trib have even the vaguest idea of what type of Christian theology was taught in the 12th century, the 15th century, or any century for that matter.

Indeed, most American Christians haven’t a clue concerning the substance of the Gospel in America, even 100 years ago. They simply listen to the liars who have the flashiest presentation, and the substantive, Scriptural truth is lost in the race to entertain. This provides a fertile breeding ground for those who seek to serve two masters – one being the modern preacher’s commitment to Christ, and a second “master” associated with the political and economic reality of survival in the degraded culture in which he lives.

Returning to the historical narrative, the lightning rod of controversy usually centers around one John Nelson Darby. Indeed, at one point the doctrine was even called Darbyism. Substantial research has been conducted, with the undisputed facts indicating that American Protestant churches received the doctrine largely through a series of Darby’s high profile speaking tours. Although there is a considerable body of data showing a link between two dubious British groups, which undoubtedly contributed to Darby’s development of the doctrine, such research, while interesting, sidesteps the central issue.
That Darby popularized the doctrine is widely accepted, as a substantive paper trail exists. One Margaret Macdonald, an un-credentialed teen living in an era when females were significantly marginalized, did indeed utter a very rudimentary version of the “Rapture” while in a trance-like state, before Darby “discovered” the Rapture. Another ministry figure, Edward Irving (who was of some disrepute), had proven contacts with MacDonald, as did Mr. Darby; but eventually, Darby’s respectable background facilitated his dissemination of pre-trib.
In its early incarnations, the doctrine had many theoretical connections based on tenuous applications of Scripture, such as the ridiculous idea the measurements of various passages in the Egyptian pyramids predict the date of the alleged event. To this very day, a few bombastic and unlearned proponents of the doctrine, seeking to distinguish themselves as serious prophecy figures worthy of financial support, still cling to the corrupted concept; however, the more studied of the Rapturists have long since abandoned the link to Pyramidology.

While most Pre-Tribulationists recognize Darby’s crucial role in the popularization of the doctrine, they stubbornly cling to the notion the doctrine is Scriptural and was known from the earliest time, asserting that it was obscured during the medieval period, and virtually lost – only to be re-discovered in the 19th century. In this regard, it is common practice for Rapture promoters to twist the record, and cite historical figures which they assert knew about the Rapture.
The ferocity with which Rapture Cult aficionados illogically defend the notion that the doctrine was taught by a multitude of important figures has always fascinated me, as the refusal to acknowledge fundamental historical fact is a prime characteristic of a person who is indeed delusional – yet the Rapturists widely persevere in a way that betrays the Spirit of the Age is indeed at work in the conflict. It is this facet of the history that I wish to pursue, as I have now concluded the Spirit of Antichrist has been seeking to plant the seeds of the doctrine from the earliest possible time. Thus, subtle traces of the doctrine may indeed be found in early church history, even though it never gained any traction until Darby’s time.

In modern times, the conflict over the Rapture has largely shifted to one which pits the concept of the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ against the Post-Tribulational return of Christ, and this is a classic manifestation of the Devilish system of the Dialectic – the intellectual witchcraft which moves two polarities into an artificially constructed environment, then seeks to facilitate between the two fixed positions to create a synthetic center – thus relocating the entire construct away from a fixed position. This is, of course, seen in the formula associated with the Hegelian Dialectic of Thesis Versus Antithesis Equals Synthesis – whereby the Synthesis becomes a new Thesis – thus creating a climate of constant change.

Recognizing the present Dialogue largely consists over the Pre-Trib Rapture Versus the Post-Trib Rapture, it is obvious the Synthesis will consist of a worldview associated with the Rapture. In this way, like an intellectual virus constantly mutating to accommodate a changing environment, the Rapture Cult is consistently morphing into novel forms to sustain itself. If we think of this leavenous process in a political venue, when Americans are consistently given the “choice” of a globalist Democrat versus a globalist Republican for the office of President, only a fool would refuse to believe the process has not been structured to keep a globalist in the West Wing.
The operative word here is change, and as this process continues, the lack of fidelity to the truth provides the Spirit of Antichrist with fertile ground in which to plant its deadly tares of deception.

Earlier I mentioned how Pre-Tribbers enthusiastically embrace the concept that noted Christian figures down through history believed in, or even propagated the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine. Important theological figures, such as Matthew Henry, John Gill, Joseph Mede, Justin Martyr, and many others are routinely cited. Not one of these individuals ever heard of the Rapture doctrine as we know it today; but unfortunately, in the media circus of Pre-Trib, the vast majority of the prophetic voices consistently cite the work of others, in pathetic examples wherein each layer of hearsay progressively embeds the assertion with cumulative errors.

This trickle down travesty is insidious, for as Pre-Tribbers quote a Rapture Cult proponent they admire, the idealized source is, in turn, quoting another Cult proponent – who may even be quoting yet another individual. Incredibly, the most recent person regurgitating this refuse has almost never read the original citation, so they are not in a position to spot even copying errors – nor are they so inclined.

This fractured and flawed transmission system is amplified by our media-centric social order, so as flashy preachers are treating on the subject before the cameras, under the carnal influence of emotion and an adrenalin drenched intellect, in seeking to keep their audience enthralled they frequently rely on memory in citing names, dates, and even quotations. For instance, Hal Lindsey, who authored the most popular book of its time on the Rapture, once gleefully told an enthusiastic audience of Pre-Tribbers of a verbal clash with a noted Post-Tribulationist, Dr. Robert Gundry, the author of a compelling Post-Trib book, which was in vogue at the time.

In a presentation reminiscent of a political candidate charging up a friendly partisan crowd by telling them just what they want to hear, Lindsey told the large group that he “hit Gundry….with the question of who will populate the Kingdom” – a favored argument from that period. Lindsay then told the excited crowd that Dr. Gundry “had no answer for it.” Obviously, as a learned professor of New Testament at University level, Dr. Gundry has “an answer” for it, but he never got the chance, as the debate Lindsey was recalling never took place at all.

The fact is, during the period when Gundry’s scholarly book was having an impact on Pre-Tribbers, a debate was scheduled as Cult figures wanted to counter Gundry’s rising influence. Erroneously thinking the pop apologist Lindsey was an adequate match for Gundry, the organizers had recruited Lindsey for the spectacle, which Lindsey apparently prepared for. However, at the last minute the professor had a prior commitment which forced the selection of another Post-Tribber to debate Lindsey the liar who, speaking on another occasion in the heat of the moment I just described, boasted of how he bested the prominent Post-Tribber in a debate that never occurred.

The pathetic episode has now been recounted in at least 3 books, but the fragile grasp Hal Lindsey has on the real world hasn’t made a dent in the enthusiasm of those caught in the greatest snare of all time:
“For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” (Luke 21:35).

Ref; James Lloyd

 

[BABerean2]

I love you guys...


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[BABerean2]

I have almost finished the book "The Bible and the Future" by Anthony Hoekema.

It is very well done. I picked up a used copy at Amazon for a few dollars.

I wish we could get everyone on this forum to read the book.

The author does an excellent job of getting all of scripture to agree, which is very rare these days, especially here on this forum.
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