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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD - WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

    Hi all hope for a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures.

    I see that there seems to be some confusion on what the scriptures actually teach on what happens when we die. So what is the state of the dead? Do we remain dead until the second coming where there the the scriptures teach those who have died in Christ will be resurrected? Or do we go to heaven when we die? These of course are contradictions in themselves.

    According to the scriptures death is referred to by Jesus as a sleep which is a metaphor for death that we awake from at the second coming's resurrection. So what does the bible teach on the state of the dead? I will post some of the scriptures on what I believe happens when we die and we can investigate all of the other scriptures on what others might think it means (hoping for friendly discussion please)

    WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD OR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?

    JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

    Jesus says that death is like a sleep and a metaphor for death we wake up out from when he resurrects us. This is a key scripture here so I separated this scripture from all the scriptures provided below from the old and new testaments that describe what happens when we die...

    (
    Note: I might ask some questions here but I am not going to provide the answers on purpose here because it is best if you can prayerfully ask God and see the answers in the scriptures provided for yourself)...

    Here is a list of a lot of scriptures you may want to investigate on the topic of the state of the dead or soul sleep or what happens when we die according to the scriptures if your interested and have some time if this topic is new to you...

    WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?
    (you find the answers prayerfully from the scriptures below)

    Death is referred to as a sleep which is a metaphor for death in scripture...

    A.: [To be dead or in death is referred to as a sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead/asleep] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

    The dead do not know anything in sleep until Jesus returns...

    B.:
    [The dead knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

    When we die we go to the grave...

    C.: [The dead are in the grave/s], sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]]Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

    Righteous and dead in Christ are raised to life at the second coming...

    D.: [Those in Christ resurrected from the grave/death/sleep at the second coming]1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Corinthians 15:50-55; Philippians 3:10-11; Danial 12:2

    Wicked resurrected to the 2nd death...

    E.: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

    The wicked in the second death are destroyed and forever...

    F.: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4
    John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

    Additionally, it is the righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14), for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29) and His ministers a flame of fire (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) and His Throne of Fire (Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5) and His speech fire (2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8) for He is a purifying fire (Malachi 3:3) and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire (Revelation 15:2), and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed (Exodus 3:3), not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished.

    ..................

    Why you might be asking is the above topic important to understand? Well it is very important as it leads into a correct understanding of the resurrection and God's judgement and what happens at the second coming as well as prepares us to be ready to avoid the great deceptions from Satan that will happen just prior to when Jesus returns so we can be prepared to meet Jesus and remain faithful to the end. The doctrine of purgatory, eternal burning Hell or heaven once we die is a false teaching that has led many away from the scriptures to the teachings of men that is not biblical.

    God bless...
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
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  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    What do the scriptures say on the state of the dead and sleeping in the grave. Only scripture provided here to the questions asked. Find the answer to the questions in the scriptures provided.

    STATE OF THE DEAD FROM THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT

    It is an interesting topic this one. For me, my understanding of scripture is that death is compared to as a sleep in which all wait until the coming of Christ at which time the dead (those that sleep) will rise from their graves. According to the scriptures we are not in heaven as many claim but await for the 2nd coming...

    IS DEATH CALLED A SLEEP IN THE BIBLE?


    JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

    MARK 5:35-39 35, While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, THY DAUGHTER IS DEAD: WHY TROUBLEST THOU THE MASTER ANY FURTHER? 36, As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. 37, And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. 38, And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. 39, And when he was come in, he saith unto them, WHY MAKE YE THIS ADO, AND WEEP? THE DAMSEL IS NOT DEAD, BUT SLEEPS.

    MATTHEW 27:50-53 50, Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51, And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52, AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED; AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHICH SLEPT AROSE <These saints were in the grave sleeping not heaven as some claim>, 53, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Note: Sleeping with the fathers means to be dead (these are a few scriptures there are too many to list)....


    ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, FELL ON SLEEP, AND WAS LAID UNTO HIS FATHERS, AND SAW CORRUPTION

    DEATH IS CALLED A SLEEP IN THE OLD TESTAMENT...

    DEUTERONOMY 31:16 AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, BEHOLD, THOU SHALT SLEEP WITH THY FATHERS; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which i have made with them.

    1 KINGS 2:10 SO DAVID SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, and was buried in the city of david.

    1 KINGS 11:43 AND SOLOMON SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 14:20 and the days which jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: AND HE SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, and nadab his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 14:31 AND REHOBOAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID. and his mother's name was naamah an ammonitess. and abijam his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 15:8 AND ABIJAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS; AND THEY BURIED HIM IN THE CITY OF DAVID: and asa his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 15:24 AND ASA SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 16:6 SO BAASHA SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN TIRZAH: and elah his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 16:28 SO OMRI SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED IN SAMARIA: and ahab his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 22:40 SO AHAB SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS; and ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

    1 KINGS 22:50 AND JEHOSHAPHAT SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID HIS FATHER: and jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

    2 KINGS 8:24 AND JORAM SLEPT WITH HIS FATHERS, AND WAS BURIED WITH HIS FATHERS IN THE CITY OF DAVID: and ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

    (Note: MANY MORE IN THE BOOKS OF KINGS, CHRONICLE AND SAMUEL…. etc etc etc) Others from the old testament that talk of death as a sleep until the resurrection….

    JOB 7:21 and why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? FOR NOW SHALL I SLEEP IN THE DUST; AND THOU SHALT SEEK ME IN THE MORNING, BUT I SHALL NOT BE

    JOB 14:12 SO MAN LIES DOWN, AND RISES NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, THEY SHALL NOT AWAKE, NOR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR SLEEP.

    PSALMS 13:3 CONSIDER AND HEAR ME, O LORD MY GOD: LIGHTEN MINE EYES, LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH;

    WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?


    ECCLESIASTES 9:3-6 3, this is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and AFTER THAT THEY GO TO THE DEAD. 4, for to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5, FOR THE LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A REWARD; FOR THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN. 6, ALSO THEIR LOVE, AND THEIR HATRED, AND THEIR ENVY, IS NOW PERISHED; NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING THAT IS DONE UNDER THE SUN.

    PSALMS 7:3-5 o lord my god, if i have done this, if there is injustice in my hands, if i have rewarded evil to my friend, or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; AND LET HIM TRAMPLE MY LIFE DOWN TO THE GROUND AND LAY MY GLORY IN THE DUST. SELAH.

    PSALMS 76:5 the stouthearted were plundered, THEY SANK INTO SLEEP; AND NONE OF THE WARRIORS COULD USE HIS HANDS.

    PSALMS 115:17 THE DEAD PRAISE NOT THE LORD, NEITHER ANY THAT GO DOWN INTO SILENCE.

    JEREMIAH 51:39 "WHEN THEY BECOME HEATED UP, I WILL SERVE THEM THEIR BANQUET AND MAKE THEM DRUNK, THAT THEY MAY BECOME JUBILANT AND MAY SLEEP A PERPETUAL SLEEP AND NOT WAKE UP," DECLARES THE LORD.

    JEREMIAH 51:57 i will make her princes and her wise men drunk, her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, that THEY MAY SLEEP A PERPETUAL SLEEP AND NOT WAKE UP," DECLARES THE KING, WHOSE NAME IS THE LORD OF HOSTS.

    ISAIAH 26:19 YOUR DEAD WILL LIVE; THEIR CORPSES WILL RISE YOU WHO LIE IN THE DUST, AWAKE AND SHOUT FOR JOY, FOR YOUR DEW IS AS THE DEW OF THE DAWN, AND THE EARTH WILL GIVE BIRTH TO THE DEPARTED SPIRITS.

    JESUS SENDING OUT THE 12 GAVE THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT TO RAISE THE DEAD...

    MATTHEW 10:5-8 5, these twelve jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the gentiles, and into any city of the samaritans enter ye not: 6, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of israel. 7, and as ye go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

    WHEN ARE THE DEAD THAT SLEEP IN THE GRAVE TO BE RISEN AND AWAKE FROM DEATH FOR THE JUDGEMENT?

    1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
    13, BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, for this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the lord SHALL NOT PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. 16, FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

    1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55 (feast of first fruits resurrection to eternal life - Jesus v 20) 50, now this i say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, behold, i shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52, IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54, so when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. 55, o death, where is thy sting? o grave, where is thy victory?

    PHILIPPIANS 3:10-11 10, THAT I MAY KNOW HIM, AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION, AND THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, BEING MADE CONFORMABLE UNTO HIS DEATH; 11, IF BY ANY MEANS I MIGHT ATTAIN UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

    DANIEL 12:2 AND MANY OF THEM THAT SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.

    HEBREWS 9:27 AND INASMUCH AS IT IS APPOINTED FOR MEN ONCE TO "DIE" ONCE AND AFTER THIS COMES JUDGMENT

    DO ALL SLEEP IN THE GRAVE OR DIE UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD?

    Elijah never died *2 KINGS 2:11 and Moses raised to life from the dead *DEUTERONOMY 34:5-6; JUDE 1:9. This vision in the gospels of Moses and Elijah represents to the two classes of those in Christ that will be around at the second coming with JESUS. The dead shall be raised to life and their will be others who will not die and will not taste death at the 2nd coming *1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55; LUKE 9:27. The scriptures here do not say everyone goes to Heaven when they die. MOSES represents the DEAD in CHRIST. Elijah represents those that do not see death in Christ. All of this happens at the second coming. Also the scriptures teach many at Christs resurrection rose from the dead *Matthew 27:53.

    1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17 13, But I would not have you TO BE IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14, FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN, EVEN SO THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:17, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

    1 CORINTHIANS 15:50-55
    50, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51, Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53, FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, AND THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. 54, So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. 55, O DEATH, WHERE IS THY STING? O GRAVE, WHERE IS THY VICTORY?

    REVELATION 14:13 AND I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING, "WRITE, 'BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON!'" "YES," SAYS THE SPIRIT, "SO THAT THEY MAY REST FROM THEIR LABORS, FOR THEIR DEEDS FOLLOW WITH THEM."

    .................

    I will post some more throughout the thread. What are your thoughts? I think a very good scriptural case can be made for what happens when we die from the scriptures in my view. What is yours?

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. :wave:
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Our God does not keep people alive for 1000's of years in eternal burning hell torturing them in fire until the second coming only to resurrect them again for judgement. This is an invention of paganism and adopted by the catholic church, and plus it teaches immortality of the soul which we do not have. Job_26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

    Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    (Is this a reference to Jesus not seeing corruption in the grave)

    Psalms 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

    Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

    Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    Psalms 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

    Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

    Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

    Proverbs 15:11 Hell (Hell = sheh-ole', sheh-ole'---From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.) and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

    Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

    Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

    John 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

    Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

    Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.)fire.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    The connection between the grave and death and hell


    There is only 2 classes, right, the saved and the unsaved. Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.

    No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

    Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it?

    May God bless you as you seek him through His Word...
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    This one was very well written from @Freth

    Death is synonymous with sleep in scripture.

    1. Lazarus dies and is called "asleep" by Jesus, even though he is clearly dead.

    John 11:11-14 KJV These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth(a); but I go, that I may awake(b) him out of sleep(b). Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep(c). Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead(d).

    (a) Strong's G2837 koimaō (sleepeth): to put to sleep, die
    (b) Strong's G1852 exypnizō (awake): to awake out of sleep
    (c) Strong's G5258 hypnos (sleep): sleep
    (d) Strong's G599 apothnēskō (dead): dead
    2. Moses is about to die and God tells him he will sleep (in death) with his fathers.

    Deuteronomy 31:14,16 KJV And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die(a)... And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep(b) with thy fathers...

    (a) Strong's H4191 mûṯ (die): to die
    (b) Strong's H7901 šāḵaḇ (sleep): to lie down (in death)

    3. Paul calls death sleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep(a), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(a) in Jesus will God bringwith him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep(a).

    (a) Strong's G2837 koimaō (asleep, sleep): to put to sleep, die

    4. The dead know nothing, according to Solomon in Ecclesiastes.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV For the living know that they shall die(a): but the dead(a) know(b) not any thing(c), neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    (a) Strong's H4191 mûṯ (die, the dead): to die
    (b) Strong's H3045 yāḏaʿ (know): to know
    (c) Strong's H3972 mᵊ'ûmâ (not any thing): with negative, nothing

    Further (Ecclesiastes 9):

    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
    5. Psalms refers to death as sleep.

    Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep(a) the sleep of death(b).

    (a) Strong's H3462 yāšan: to sleep
    (b) Strong's H4194 māveṯ: death, dying, Death (personified), realm of the dead

    Psalms 76:6 At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep(a).

    (a) Strong's H7290 rāḏam (dead sleep): to be in a heavy sleep; stupefy (with sleep or death)

    6. Jesus and the ruler's daughter.

    Matthew 9:18-19,24-26 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead(a): but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples... ...He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth(b). And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

    (a) Strong's G5053 teleutaō (dead): to finish life (by implication, of G979), i.e. expire (demise):—be dead, decease, die
    (b) Strong's G2518 katheudō (sleepeth): euphemistically, to be dead

    This event can also be found in Mark 5 (Mark 5:39).
    7. Death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire at judgment, because they are no longer necessary. Death being sleep, hell being the grave or holding place where the dead sleep (and as per Ecclesiastes, know not any thing).

    Revelation 20:14 And death(a) and hell(b) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    (a) Strong's G2288 thanatos: the death of the body
    (b) Strong's G86 : the place (state) of departed souls:—grave
    8. Souls under the alter in heaven?

    Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar(a) the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    (a) Strong's G2379 thysiastērion: altar of incense

    Revelation is full of symbology. This particular verse is speaking of the altar of incense in the heavenly sanctuary, which is a symbol of prayer, or communication, with God. The "souls under the altar" is symbolic of their prayers for vengeance before their deaths, which linger at the altar of incense, in the heavenly sanctuary, until all is fulfilled and justice is done.
    9. Luke 16, Lazarus, Abraham's bosom and hell.

    Luke 16:19-31 is a parable about a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus and should not be used in a literal sense concerning hell.
    10. Even spiritual death is called sleep and death. Being awakened called rising from the dead (into life).

    Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake(a) thou that sleepest(b), and arise(c) from the dead(d), and Christ shall give thee light.

    (a) Strong's G1453 egeirō (awake): to arouse from sleep, awake; to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
    (b) Strong's G2518 katheudō (sleepest): euphemistically, to be dead
    (c) Strong's G450 anistēmi: to raise up from the dead; cause to be born
    (d) Strong's G3498 nekros: spiritually dead
    11. We shall not all sleep.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(a), but we shall all be changed [those alive at the second coming and those resurrected], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    (a) Strong's G2837 koimaō (asleep, sleep): to put to sleep, die
    12. Not being ignorant of those who are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep(a), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    (a) Strong's G2837 koimaō (asleep, sleep): to put to sleep, die
    13. Our fathers fell asleep.

    2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep(a), all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

    (a) Strong's G2837 koimaō (asleep, sleep): to put to sleep, die
    14. Job concerning death and sleep.

    Job 14:10-12 But man dieth(a), and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost(b), and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down(c), and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake(d), nor be raised out of their sleep(e).

    (a) Strong's H4191 mûṯ (die, the dead): to die
    (b) Strong's H1471 gāvaʿ (give up the ghost): to expire, die, perish, give up the ghost, yield up the ghost, be dead, be ready to die
    (c) Strong's H7901 šāḵaḇ (sleep): to lie down (in death)
    (d) Strong's H6974 qûṣ (awake): to awake, wake up
    (e) Strong's H8142 šēnā' (sleep): sleep

    Conclusion:


    There is overwhelming evidence that scripture wants us to associate sleep with death and that the dead know nothing, do not rise, do not have any participation in anything whatsoever until their resurrection. The use of "sleep" as a euphemism (a more kind way of saying someone is dead) doesn't seem to be the case across the board; and the language that points to the dead being dormant makes the understanding of death, as truly being sleep, clear in my view.

    Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

    Don't believe a word I say. Pray for the Holy Spirit to give you discernment. Read the word of God to learn the truth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
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  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Here is a good post from @SabbathBlessings posted from Amazing Facts..

    Thought I would share this bible study:

    1. How did humans get here in the first place?
    “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7).

    Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

    2. What happens when a person dies?
    “Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

    Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies—whether saved or unsaved—returns to God at death.

    3. What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death?
    “The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).
    “The spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3 KJV).

    Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

    4. What is a "soul"?
    “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

    Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we are souls—not that we have souls.

    Body(Dust) - Breath(Spirit) = Death (No Soul)

    5. Do souls die?
    “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV).
    “Every living soul died in the sea” (Revelation 16:3 KJV).

    Answer: According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17).
    Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

    The Bible suggests that King David will be in God’s kingdom, but that he is in his grave now, where he awaits the resurrection.

    6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?
    “All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” (John 5:28, 29).
    “David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).
    “If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV).

    Answer: No. People do not go to heaven or to hell at death. They don’t go anywhere—but they wait in their graves for the resurrection.

    7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?
    “The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
    “The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).

    Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

    Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

    8. But can’t the dead communicate with the living, and aren’t they aware of what the living are doing?
    “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. … His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it” (Job 14:12, 21).
    “Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

    Answer: No. The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4 KJV).

    9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead “sleep” in John 11:11–14. How long will they sleep?
    “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more” (Job 14:12).
    “The day of the Lord will come … in which the heavens will pass away” (2 Peter 3:10).

    Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

    10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
    “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).
    “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. … And the dead in Christ will rise. … And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
    “We shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye … and the dead will be raised incorruptible. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53).

    Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

    11. What was the devil’s first lie on Earth?
    “The serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die’ ” (Genesis 3:4).
    “That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan” (Revelation 12:9).

    Answer: You will not die.

    12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than we think?

    Answer: The devil’s lie that we will not die is one of the pillars of his teachings. For thousands of years, he has worked powerful, deceptive miracles to trick people into thinking they are receiving messages from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt—Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor—1 Samuel 28:3–25; Sorcerers—Daniel 2:2; A slave girl—Acts 16:16–18.)

    A Solemn Warning
    In the near future, Satan will again use sorcery—as he did in the prophet Daniel’s day—to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

    Posing as Jesus' Disciples
    Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will likely be deceived.

    All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

    13. Do devils really work miracles?
    “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles” (Revelation 16:14, KJV).
    “False christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24:24).

    Answer: Yes indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan will appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God’s elect will not be deceived.

    14. Why will God's people not be deceived?
    “They received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Acts 17:11).
    “If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

    Answer: God’s people will know from their study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. They will know that a “spirit” claiming to be a deceased loved one is really a devil! God’s people will reject all teachers and miracle workers who claim to receive special “light” or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God’s people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

    15. Back in Moses’ day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?
    “A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones” (Leviticus 20:27).

    Answer: God insisted that mediums and others with “familiar spirits” (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

    16. Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
    “Those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead … nor can they die anymore” (Luke 20:35, 36).

    “God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:4).

    Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God’s new kingdom. “When this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’ ” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

    17. Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
    “The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing. … Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).

    Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

    The Bible Says
    After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

    Satan's Invention
    We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

    .......

    All great scriptures...
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Here is a good post by @BobRyan that is also worth reading from other scholars on this topic...

    Even the Bible scholarship that strongly affirms the idea of an immortal soul - freely confesses that the Luke 16 parable - is... a... parable.

    =================

    R.C Sproul, Burton Coffman, Matthew Henry , Albert Barnes and others

    ===================================

    Originally Posted by Jope [​IMG]

    This passage of Lazarus and the rich man is in congruence with the belief of the Jews.

    the carrying up of the soul of the righteous by Angels is certainly in accordance with Jewish teaching, though stripped of all legendary details, such as about the number and the greetings of the Angels. But it is also fully in accordance with Christian thought of the ministry of Angels. Again, as regards the expression ‘Abraham’s bosom,’ it occurs, although not frequently, in Jewish writings. On the other hand, the appeal to Abraham as our father is so frequent, his presence and merits are so constantly invoked; notably, he is so expressly designated as he who receives (מקבל) the penitent into Paradise, that we can see how congruous especially to the higher Jewish teaching, which dealt not in coarsely sensuous descriptions of gan Eden, or Paradise, the phrase ‘Abraham’s bosom’ must have been

    Edersheim, A. THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JESUS THE MESSIAH. Book 4, Chapter 18, II.

    ============================== parable

    The Parables of Jesus

    A Teaching Series by Dr. R.C. Sproul

    The Parables of Jesus by R.C. Sproul

    “Lecture 4, Parable of Lazarus & the Rich Man:
    During Jesus’ earthly ministry, one of the primary ways He would instruct His disciples was through parables. People would gather from far and wide in order to listen to what Jesus said about the kingdom of God, and the most common way He would explain the kingdom was in parables. But what does God want us to learn from these parables? In this series, Dr. R.C. Sproul examines several parables of Jesus, exploring the rich truths they reveal about who Jesus is and what He came to achieve through His life, death, and resurrection.”

    =========== R.C Sproul

    Surprised by Suffering

    pg 146 – « Book : Surprised by Suffering »

    it (Luke 16:20-31) is a parable that cannot be forced too far… “

    Page 147
    “though it is a parable, Jesus paints a picture of the bosom of Abraham”

    ================================================= other commentators

    Abraham is appealed to - as in authority. Very acceptable mythology (parable) to Jews of Christ's day.

    =========================================

    Burton Coffman


    Luke 16 - Coffman Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

    Verse 24
    And he cried, and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.


    Father Abraham ...
    Here is found the absolute necessity for seeing this as a parable; for Abraham himself, like all the saints in death, is in the place here called "Abraham's bosom." Abraham is therefore a type of God who presides over both Paradise and the place of the wicked in Hades. This, of course, negates any support that might be supposed in this connection for praying to departed saints. Besides that, as Wesley said:

    It cannot be denied but here in Scripture is the precedent of praying to departed saints. But who is it that prays, and with what success? Will anyone who considers this be found copying after him? F39

    ======================================end

    Matthew Henry
    on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16

    “As the parable of the prodigal son set before us the grace of the gospel, which is encouraging to us all, so this sets before us the wrath to come, and is designed for our awakening; and very fast asleep those are in sin that will not be awakened by it. The Pharisees made a jest of Christ's sermon against worldliness; now this parable was intended to make those mockers serious.


    Parables must not be forced beyond their primary intention, and therefore we must not hence infer that any one can befriend us if we lie under the displeasure of our Lord, but that, in the general, we must so lay out what we have in works of piety and charity as that we may meet it again with comfort on the other side death and the grave.



    This parable is not like Christ's other parables, in which spiritual things are represented by similitudes borrowed from worldly things, as those of the sower and the seed (except that of the sheep and goats), the prodigal son, and indeed all the rest but this. But here the spiritual things themselves are represented in a narrative or description of the different state of good and bad in this world and the other. Yet we need not call it a history of a particular occurrence, but it is matter of fact that is true every day, that poor godly people, whom men neglect and trample upon, die away out of their miseries

    Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!

    ========================================end

    Albert Barnes on the parable found in Luke 16

    Luke 16 - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

    Verse 19. There was a certain rich man. Many have supposed that our Lord here refers to a real history, and gives an account of some man who had lived in this manner; but of this there is no evidence. The probability is that this narrative is to be considered as a parable, referring not to any particular case which had actually happened, but teaching that such cases might happen. The design of the narrative is to be collected from the previous conversation.


    Abraham's bosom. This is a phrase taken from the practice of reclining at meals, where the head of one lay on the bosom of another, and the phrase therefore denotes intimacy and friendship. See Barnes "Matthew 23:6". See Barnes "John 13:23". See Barnes "John 21:20". The Jews had no doubt that Abraham was in paradise. To say that Lazarus was in his bosom was therefore the same as to say that he was admitted to heaven and made happy there.


    Verse 24. Father Abraham. The Jews considered it a signal honour that Abraham was their father--that is, that they were descendants from him. Though this man was now in misery, yet he seems not to have abandoned the idea of his relation to the father of the faithful. The Jews supposed that departed spirits might know and converse with each other. See Lightfoot on this place. Our Saviour speaks in conformity with that prevailing opinion; and as it was not easy to convey ideas about the spiritual world without some such representation, he therefore speaks in the language which was usual in his time. We are not, however, to suppose that this was literally true, but only that it was designed to represent more clearly the sufferings of the rich man in hell.

    =====================================end

    From : Rich man and Lazarus - Wikipedia

    One identification is that the man in torment in the parable is Caiaphas the High Priest which as Josephus tells us had five brothers. Caiaphas met the criteria Jesus gives in the parable to the identity of the Rich Man. He was rich, and as the high priest was dressed in purple and fine linen, he had five brothers, and was well versed in Moses and the Prophets, but according to Jesus, were ignoring what they wrote.[14]

    Luther: a parable of the conscience
    Martin Luther taught that the story was a parable about rich and poor in this life and the details of the afterlife not to be taken literally:

    Therefore we conclude that the bosom of Abraham signifies nothing else than the Word of God,.... the hell here mentioned cannot be the true hell that will begin on the day of judgment. For the corpse of the rich man is without doubt not in hell, but buried in the earth; it must however be a place where the soul can be and has no peace, and it cannot be corporeal. Therefore it seems to me, this hell is the conscience, which is without faith and without the Word of God, in which the soul is buried and held until the day of judgment, when they are cast down body and soul into the true and real hell. (Church Postil 1522–23)[15]

    Lightfoot: a parable against the Pharisees


    Illustration of Lazarus at the rich man's gate by Fyodor Bronnikov, 1886.

    John Lightfoot (1602–1675) treated the parable as a parody of Pharisee belief concerning the Bosom of Abraham, and from the connection of Abraham saying the rich man's family would not believe even if the parable Lazarus was raised, to the priests' failure to believe in the resurrection of Christ:

    Any one may see, how Christ points at the infidelity of the Jews, even after that himself shall have risen again. From whence it is easy to judge what was the design and intention of this parable. (From the Talmud and Hebraica, Volume 3)[16]

    E. W. Bullinger in the Companion Bible cited Lightfoot's comment,[17] and expanded it to include coincidence to lack of belief in the resurrection of the historical Lazarus (John 12:10). Bullinger considered that Luke did not identify the passage as a "parable" because it contains a parody of the view of the afterlife:

    It is not called a parable because it cites a notable example of the Pharisee's tradition which had been brought from Babylon.[18]

    Drioux: a parable against the Sadducees
    An alternative explanation of the parable is a satirical parable against the Sadducees. One writer to identify the Sadducees as the target was Johann Nepomuk Sepp.[19] The arguments in favour of identification of the Rich Man as the Sadducees are (1) the wearing of purple and fine linen, priestly dress,[20] (2) the reference to "five brothers in my father's house" as an allusion to Caiaphas' father-in-law Annas, and his five sons who also served as high priests according to Josephus,[21] (3) Abraham's statement in the parable that they would not believe even if he raised Lazarus, and then the fulfillment that when Jesus did raise Lazarus of Bethany the Sadducees not only did not believe, but attempted to have Lazarus killed again: "So the chief priests made plans to put Lazarus to death as well" (John 12:10). This last interpretation had wide circulation in France during the 1860s–1890s as a result of having been included in the notes of the pictorial Bible of Abbé Drioux.[22]

    Perry: a parable of a new covenant
    Simon Perry has argued that the Lazarus of the parable (an abbreviated transcript of "Eleazer") refers to Eliezer of Damascus, Abraham's servant. In Genesis 15—a foundational covenant text familiar to any 1st century Jew—God says to Abraham "this man will not be your heir" (Gen 15:4). Perry argues that this is why Lazarus is outside the gates of Abraham's perceived descendant. By inviting Lazarus to Abraham's bosom, Jesus is redefining the nature of the covenant. It also explains why the rich man assumes Lazarus is Abraham's servant.[23]

    ==============

    Dr Douglas Finkbeiner

    Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary

    1. Support for identifying this pericope as a parable– the literary argument–
    note the usage of “a certain man” in 16:1 and two of the other example
    stories (10:30; 12:16). I find this argument to be overwhelmingly
    persuasive.

    *Adherents– Both leading commentaries on Luke (Bock, Green, Nolland,
    Marshall, Stein) and texts on parables (Hultgren, Blomberg, Sider,
    Wenham, Young, Bailey, Pentecost, Kistemaker) describe it as a parable.


    =============

    R.C Sproul
    pg 146 – « Book : Surprised by Suffering »
    ... it (Luke 16:20-31) is a parable that cannot be forced too far… “

    .................

    Interesting thoughts from scholars and past reformers of the reformation Bob many thanks...
     
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  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @SabbathBlessings for this one from Amazing Facts

    Here are five reasons we can know that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not meant to be taken literally.

    1. It’s comes in a list of parables. The Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines “parable” as “a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle.” The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes at the end of a string of parables filled with symbolic, non-literal illustrations (see Luke 15). For instance, in the parable of the lost sheep, Jesus is certainly not teaching that His followers have four legs or eat grass; it’s all metaphor for a greater spiritual point.

    2. It contains an impossible conversation. The parable portrays the rich man in “Hades” speaking directly to Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom.” Can people in heaven have conversations with people in hell? For that matter, do people in heaven really watch people burning in hell? Not according to Jesus, who describes a “great gulf fixed” between the saved and the lost (Luke 16:26).

    3. It uses clear symbolic imagery. The rich man wants Abraham to send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue (verse 24). This must be symbolic—because it can’t possibly happen physically. How much water could pass through the flames, and what help would it provide someone suffering in hell?

    4. It uses figurative expressions. Do the people who died with faith in Christ find their rest in Abraham’s literal bosom? How big is Abraham’s bosom? This must be a figurative expression, for we know that angels will gather the saints at the second coming of Christ (see Matthew 24:30, 31).

    5. It would otherwise contradict the rest of Scripture. If this story were literal, it would be hard to explain why the Bible says “in death there is no remembrance” (Psalm 6:5). Instead, those who die are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16). The Bible compares death to sleep over 50 times. See one example by Jesus in John 11:11–14.

    The real message of this parable is often and unfortunately lost because people use it to try to prove something Jesus wasn’t even talking about. If you’d like to know the real meaning of this parable story, check out our resources below …

    Something I was reading and thought I would share.
    5 Reasons You Can Know 'The Rich Man and Lazarus' Is Not Literal | News | Amazing Facts
     
  8. newlightseven

    newlightseven Active Member

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    When you die in Jesus you go to be with him at death.
     
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  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi newlightseven, nice to meet you. Your view here is what mainstream Christianity teaches but as you can see in the posts and in the scriptures in these posts above yours this teaching is not biblical according to the scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  10. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    "Soul sleep" is a modern idea that has never been a part of Christianity. You are right that the bible uses sleep as analogous to death, but that is not the case. The Revelation speaks directly to the state of souls who rest at the throne of God, who are aware of what is happening on the earth, and who plead with God. After he was crucified Jesus preached to the souls of the dead.

    "Soul sleep" is an argument used by some protestant groups against the Roman teaching of purgatory. The argument goes "we don't believe in purgatory so souls must be sleeping".
     
  11. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A kind advice: Don't post tons of text at once, then people will just skip the whole thread.

    If we are asleep in the graves, how come Moses was with Jesus at the mount of transfiguration? The Scripture you posted says Moses was asleep.
     
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi thanks but I am happy to post scriptures as it is the scriptures that show the truth of Gods' Word for those interested. In the posts provided already the scriptures show that some people in the bible did not see death/sleep (e.g. Elijah, Enoch see Hebrews 11:5 and 2 Kings 2:11). There was also a special resurrection of those that loved God at the time of Christs resurrection *Matthew 27:53. These of course all being dead in the graves before the resurrection of Jesus. Moses also died and was also resurrected Jude 1:9. For me I believe that both Elijah and Moses in the vision given by Jesus to the disciples in Matthew 16:27-28 represents the two classes of people that will be present at the second coming. Those who are alive in Christ and do not see death and those who died being faithful in Christ and are resurrected at the second coming (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

    God bless
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  13. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are possibly right, but I don't see how Jude 1:9 is pointing to Moses being resurrected.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    We can put quotes around that.. but not a chapter and verse for "be with Him - AT death"

    1 Thess 4:131-18 "and so shall we ever by WITH the Lord" - after describing the rapture.
    John 14:1-3 "So THAT WHERE I am there you may be ALSO" - after describing the second coming.

    The saints will die and the saints will also be with the Lord - but no text says "AT DEATH"
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Jude 1:9 is a quote from a pseudapigraphal book called "The Assumption of Moses" about Moses being risen and bodily assumed into heaven.

    Matt 17 we see him in bodily form standing with Elijah and with Christ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
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  16. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That was interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks! :)
     
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    This is not true. The term "soul sleep" is new and one that has a different meaning to death termed as a sleep in the scriptures but as shown in the scriptures and the very words of Jesus death as a sleep has been used in the scriptures for 1000's of years before the new covenant Church ever existed. It can also be shown in Judaism and the early Church after the Apostles in the 2nd Century AD (e.g Tatian's address to the Greeks and the records of Eusebius of Caesarea).
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please share from the Church fathers.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi zoider,

    The early Church like Judaism has held both views for or against the state of the dead and immortality of the soul. So your best staying with the scriptures as shown in the OP as they go back thousands of years before the Church and the earliest records of the Church in the very words of Jesus and the Apostles which are scripture (God's Word) as shown in the OP.

    The earliest example however that I know of is that of Tatian where I will put the original source out of interest.

    Tatian of Adiabene,[1] or Tatian the Syrian[2][3][4] or Tatian the Assyrian,[5][6][7][8] (/ˈteɪʃən, -iən/; Latin: Tatianus; Ancient Greek: Τατιανός; Classical Syriac: ܛܛܝܢܘܣ‎; c. 120 – c. 180 AD) was an Assyrian Christian writer and theologian of the 2nd century. (Wiki)

    THEORY OF THE SOUL'S IMMORTALITY.

    "The soul is not in itself immortal... If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved."

    The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved. In itself it is darkness, and there is nothing luminous in it. And this is the meaning of the saying, "The darkness comprehendeth not the light." For the soul does not preserve the spirit, but is preserved by it, and the light comprehends the darkness. The Logos, in truth, is the light of God, but the ignorant soul is darkness. On this account, if it continues solitary, it tends downward towards matter, and dies with the flesh; but, if it enters into union with the Divine Spirit, it is no longer helpless, but ascends to the regions whither the Spirit guides it: for the dwelling-place of the spirit is above, but the origin of the soul is from beneath. Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls. And the souls that are obedient to wisdom have attracted to themselves the cognate spirit; but the disobedient, rejecting the minister of the suffering God, have shown themselves to be fighters against God, rather than His worshippers.

    (Tatian's Address to the Greeks". CHAP. XIII)

    God bless.
     
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  20. Gundy22

    Gundy22 Member

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    The Assumption of Moses is non-canonical - it asserts that the devil disputed about the BODY of Moses
     
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