The Trump administration unveils a stealth attack on people with preexisting conditions

dogs4thewin

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Wait WHAT? You are benefiting from socialized medicine. Your father didn’t pay for it, ALL of our taxes are paying for it. How are you “taking care of your own” if you are on Medicare? And you want to deny the same thing to other unfortunate people?
I have also stated that I would wish it on no one ( Medicaid) This is why I keep saying I feel that it should be people and not the government providing. Funny thing is sometimes I wonder if the government was more limited would people step up. Think about it, if people know it will get done they tend to say that is not my job. I am wondering how many people do not help because the government will,
 
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We the people can decide what is basic if we have single payer healthcare. Before Obamacare, insurance companies decided.
and if you did not like it you had the option of paying for it yourself.
 
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Sparagmos

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Whether being poor is a choice or not depends. I tell you what is almost always a choice except for very limited cases is REMAINING poor. Going back to the example of my father he grew up as one of four with an alcoholic father who could not hold a job and he and his siblings helped his mother pay the bills when they each got old enough. Yet, by his 30th birthday he was a landlord and when he built this house put DOWN what most people finance. He did not come CLOSE to poverty again until close to the end and he did have insurance His younger brother from what I can tell based on what he has done and what I have seen is the same way. His older brother and sister however while both worked hard until becoming disabled are poorer money managers. They all four came from the same house and are full-blood siblings it is THEIR CHOICES as ADULTS that made the difference. Now, I love all my aunts and uncles, but the fact is it was their choices as adults and not where they came from ( poverty) that determined where they are today or in father's case were for the better part of their adult lives. Now, is that to say that everyone makes it out of poverty or that hard work is all that goes into no, but that is he biggest of it.
While I don’t agree that your father’s anecdote proves that staying poor is a choice, let’s go with that idea. How are people who are working hard to move from poverty to the middle class, but haven’t made it there yet, supposed to pay for healthcare, which now costs almost $10,000 a year?
 
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Sparagmos

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I have also stated that I would wish it on no one ( Medicaid) This is why I keep saying I feel that it should be people and not the government providing. Funny thing is sometimes I wonder if the government was more limited would people step up. Think about it, if people know it will get done they tend to say that is not my job. I am wondering how many people do not help because the government will,
Then why don’t you go off of Medicaid and pay for your own insurance?
 
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While I don’t agree that your father’s anecdote proves that staying poor is a choice, let’s go with that idea. How are people who are working hard to move from poverty to the middle class, but haven’t made it there yet, supposed to pay for healthcare, which now costs almost $10,000 a year?
$10,000 a year?
 
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Then why don’t you go off of Medicaid and pay for your own insurance?
Medicare is a better program I am frankly scared to work; despite my desire to do so. Something else I find nuts is that SSI ( the disability program that is welfare you get MEDICAID if approved that day. If you have SSDI ( the one for people who have paid into the system you have to wait TWO years for the better program that is Medicare that makes no sense.
 
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Andrew77

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Im aware of what a preexistibg condition is. You are entitled to your opinion on the “purpose” of heath insurance. I think your analysis supports the idea that a for profit insurance system cannot care for people’s health. Have diabetes? Too bad for you.

Why not just adopt a healthcare system like one of the many that are cheaper and deliver better outcomes? It’s a no-brainer. I want what Japan, Germany, Denmark, and Australia have. None of them want what we have!

I'm amused by you claiming what I said about insurance is opinion. Do tell... what part of what I said, was opinion, in your view?

First, most insurance companies are non-profits. The idea that profit motive is the problem, and if only we could get rid of profit motive, is absolutely bonkers, and ignores reality.

Everything is done for profit. Meaning.... EVERYTHING. If you have government run health insurance, it will be done for a profit. The profit of the politicians, the bureaucrats, the union employees, and the political supporters. That lady in Broward County Florida that screwed up the election, was being paid $300K a year, not including her pension and benefits for being a public official.

People are going to make a profit off of providing health care to you, no matter what system you put in place. The only question is, will it bankrupt the entire country, like Greece, or not.

Now as far as private insurance not being able to provide health care.... you know it only worked pretty well for decades on end, like all the way back to the 1930s..... Again, I had an insurance policy that covered everything I needed for just $67 a month, back in 2006. That was before the left-wing Democrats screwed up the entire market, and now the cheapest is $300/month.

And the solution to Diabetes is simple..... get insurance before you get diabetes. Now I had a relative who was born with the condition... and they got a job and paid for their treatments even now. You know, like a responsible adult who takes care of their issues without burdening everyone else in society.

Not hard. Don't get me wrong... I'm sure she would love to have someone else pay her bills, and so would I. If you would like to make a check for my car repairs, I would appreciate it. But I don't demand that you pay my bills, with the gun of the Federal Government pointing at your head.

I want what Japan, Germany, Denmark, and Australia have. None of them want what we have!


A ton of people don't know what they are talking about. It's really easy to say things are so much better elsewhere, and I kind of compare that to a married man, who is always looking at a better wife, until they get the better wife, and then start looking for the new better wife.

The grass isn't always greener.

Plus, a ton of people only know our health care system based on hostile, pro-socialism news report.
The reality isn't all that rosey.

My parents church, started a program to help children at Children's Hospital. Tons of people have no idea that, Children are sent to this country from across the entire world, to pay for treatment here in the US. My parents met a girl of only 14, getting treatment at Children's Hospital. She is here alone, from Australia. She's already been in the US by herself, for over a year. In her own country, they told her to go home and die. They simply did not have the treatment she needed, available to her in Australia. There was child from the UK, where the doctors told his parents, he was going to die. They flew him to the US, and saved his life.

People come from around the world routinely, to get treatment that the government run socialized systems in Europe, simply don't offer.

Why don't they offer it? Money.

We charge for service, so we can afford to provide service. They don't, so there is no money for treatments, beyond the basics.

This is why the wait time for an MRI is sometimes years long. In a capitalist system, the more customers you have, the more you invest equipment to meet the customers needs.

In a socialized system where treatment is free, there is no money to be made providing more service, and there is no extra money from customers to invest in those services.

You mentioned Denmark. Do you want to pay 60% of your income in taxes? If you do, then great! We'll all just live more poorly, and we'll have tiny little homes like the Danish do, and we'll never go out to eat, like the Danish, and everyone will ride a taxi because they can't afford a car. Do you want that? Because you can't have free stuff, and not pay the taxes.

Germany is interesting because most all Germans have private insurance, on top of the insane taxes they pay. I have close friends from all over the world, and this woman I know sent me this pict.

45674709_10217201427858640_6592541934823145472_n.jpg


She's originally from Germany, says she would never go back. This is for a 20 pc Nuggets and 3 ice teas. Let me translate that to dollars.... She paid almost $18. Notice that 19% tax on food.

Do you know how much fuel is over there? $8/gallon. I filled up for $2/gallon. Why is there a difference in price? Taxes.

A household income of just $60K a year, places you in the 42% income tax bracket. The lowest tax rate is 14%, on the poor.

But that's just income tax. Your payroll taxes are 20%, plus your income tax rate. That means that a middle class income, would result in now less than a 50% tax rate.

Are you ready to lose half your income in taxes? See, when you say that people around the world don't want our system, are you asking them with the caveat that they can cut that 20% sales tax, cut that 20% payroll taxes, reduce their income tax, and cut their fuel tax?

Are you ready to pay the 180% tax on cars in Denmark? Are you ready to pay $20,000 for a sub-compact? Are you ready to pay $35K to 50K for a Honda? Are you ready to pay $100,000 for a BMW?

If you asked the Danish if they would be willing to trade their $25 value meals at McDonalds, for less government everything? Given that fact that nearly all the nordic countries have moved to the right, because their economies are stalling, indicates that people are not so enthralled at paying $50,000 for a $20,000 car, just so they can get a check up for free.

See one of the reasons why the "everyone else has a better system!" montra doesn't work with me, is because I've been there. I've seen the hospitals that have all the windows open in the middle of summer, because none of the government run hospitals can afford air conditioning. Nothing beats having a fever, and sweating it out inside a hospital room that is 90º.

But if you want to pay most of your income in taxes, and live a poorer life, just follow Europe. Great way to drastically cut the standard of living in the US.
 
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Sparagmos

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and if you did not like it you had the option of paying for it yourself.
Just as you would with single payer health insurance, except the costs of most medical care would be 40-50 percent lower.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Just as you would with single payer health insurance, except the costs of most medical care would be 40-50 percent lower.
Wait and so what is the point of single payer if you can still pay for it yourself.
 
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Sparagmos

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I have also stated that I would wish it on no one ( Medicaid) This is why I keep saying I feel that it should be people and not the government providing. Funny thing is sometimes I wonder if the government was more limited would people step up. Think about it, if people know it will get done they tend to say that is not my job. I am wondering how many people do not help because the government will,
We dont have to wonder what it would be like with no social security, Medicaid, or Medicare. In the 20’s, during a ti
E of wealth and opulence for some, old people, the disabled, and children were homeless and begging on the streets for handouts.
 
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Sparagmos

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Wait and so what is the point of single payer if you can still pay for it yourself.
To pay for most of the cost, and all that is necessary. I think another poster already addressed this.
 
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Sparagmos

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I'm amused by you claiming what I said about insurance is opinion. Do tell... what part of what I said, was opinion, in your view?

First, most insurance companies are non-profits. The idea that profit motive is the problem, and if only we could get rid of profit motive, is absolutely bonkers, and ignores reality.

Everything is done for profit. Meaning.... EVERYTHING. If you have government run health insurance, it will be done for a profit. The profit of the politicians, the bureaucrats, the union employees, and the political supporters. That lady in Broward County Florida that screwed up the election, was being paid $300K a year, not including her pension and benefits for being a public official.

People are going to make a profit off of providing health care to you, no matter what system you put in place. The only question is, will it bankrupt the entire country, like Greece, or not.

Now as far as private insurance not being able to provide health care.... you know it only worked pretty well for decades on end, like all the way back to the 1930s..... Again, I had an insurance policy that covered everything I needed for just $67 a month, back in 2006. That was before the left-wing Democrats screwed up the entire market, and now the cheapest is $300/month.

And the solution to Diabetes is simple..... get insurance before you get diabetes. Now I had a relative who was born with the condition... and they got a job and paid for their treatments even now. You know, like a responsible adult who takes care of their issues without burdening everyone else in society.

Not hard. Don't get me wrong... I'm sure she would love to have someone else pay her bills, and so would I. If you would like to make a check for my car repairs, I would appreciate it. But I don't demand that you pay my bills, with the gun of the Federal Government pointing at your head.

I want what Japan, Germany, Denmark, and Australia have. None of them want what we have!


A ton of people don't know what they are talking about. It's really easy to say things are so much better elsewhere, and I kind of compare that to a married man, who is always looking at a better wife, until they get the better wife, and then start looking for the new better wife.

The grass isn't always greener.

Plus, a ton of people only know our health care system based on hostile, pro-socialism news report.
The reality isn't all that rosey.

My parents church, started a program to help children at Children's Hospital. Tons of people have no idea that, Children are sent to this country from across the entire world, to pay for treatment here in the US. My parents met a girl of only 14, getting treatment at Children's Hospital. She is here alone, from Australia. She's already been in the US by herself, for over a year. In her own country, they told her to go home and die. They simply did not have the treatment she needed, available to her in Australia. There was child from the UK, where the doctors told his parents, he was going to die. They flew him to the US, and saved his life.

People come from around the world routinely, to get treatment that the government run socialized systems in Europe, simply don't offer.

Why don't they offer it? Money.

We charge for service, so we can afford to provide service. They don't, so there is no money for treatments, beyond the basics.

This is why the wait time for an MRI is sometimes years long. In a capitalist system, the more customers you have, the more you invest equipment to meet the customers needs.

In a socialized system where treatment is free, there is no money to be made providing more service, and there is no extra money from customers to invest in those services.

You mentioned Denmark. Do you want to pay 60% of your income in taxes? If you do, then great! We'll all just live more poorly, and we'll have tiny little homes like the Danish do, and we'll never go out to eat, like the Danish, and everyone will ride a taxi because they can't afford a car. Do you want that? Because you can't have free stuff, and not pay the taxes.

Germany is interesting because most all Germans have private insurance, on top of the insane taxes they pay. I have close friends from all over the world, and this woman I know sent me this pict.

View attachment 247053

She's originally from Germany, says she would never go back. This is for a 20 pc Nuggets and 3 ice teas. Let me translate that to dollars.... She paid almost $18. Notice that 19% tax on food.

Do you know how much fuel is over there? $8/gallon. I filled up for $2/gallon. Why is there a difference in price? Taxes.

A household income of just $60K a year, places you in the 42% income tax bracket. The lowest tax rate is 14%, on the poor.

But that's just income tax. Your payroll taxes are 20%, plus your income tax rate. That means that a middle class income, would result in now less than a 50% tax rate.

Are you ready to lose half your income in taxes? See, when you say that people around the world don't want our system, are you asking them with the caveat that they can cut that 20% sales tax, cut that 20% payroll taxes, reduce their income tax, and cut their fuel tax?

Are you ready to pay the 180% tax on cars in Denmark? Are you ready to pay $20,000 for a sub-compact? Are you ready to pay $35K to 50K for a Honda? Are you ready to pay $100,000 for a BMW?

If you asked the Danish if they would be willing to trade their $25 value meals at McDonalds, for less government everything? Given that fact that nearly all the nordic countries have moved to the right, because their economies are stalling, indicates that people are not so enthralled at paying $50,000 for a $20,000 car, just so they can get a check up for free.

See one of the reasons why the "everyone else has a better system!" montra doesn't work with me, is because I've been there. I've seen the hospitals that have all the windows open in the middle of summer, because none of the government run hospitals can afford air conditioning. Nothing beats having a fever, and sweating it out inside a hospital room that is 90º.

But if you want to pay most of your income in taxes, and live a poorer life, just follow Europe. Great way to drastically cut the standard of living in the US.
The only opinion I was commenting on was what the purpose of health insurance was. I stated that clearly I think.

Wages are not profit.

You “ahem” misrepresented the price of a happy meal in Denmark, unless it is 4 times the cost of a Big Mac:
Big Mac index worldwide 2018 | Statista
Now why should we trust your other numbers when you were so off on that one?

I can counter any anecdote you have with one of my own. I also know people from all over the world and NONE of them think our health care is better.

As for the Danish, I think this article lays it out:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes

I absolutely would support paying more in taxes for more services and a society with healthier kids, a more educated workforce, guaranteed month vacations each year, lower infant mortality rates, a shorter workweek thus more time with family, less eating out, fewer cars on the road, more money invested in clean energy, a longer life expectancy, guaranteed paid maternity AND paternity leave, and a dignified comfortable retirement for ALL working people. Capitalism like we have in the U.S. is a failure. We are a rich country and we can affird to put families, healthcare, education, rest, and the environment before profits.
 
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Andrew77

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The only opinion I was commenting on was what the purpose of health insurance was. I stated that clearly I think.

Wages are not profit.

You “ahem” misrepresented the price of a happy meal in Denmark, unless it is 4 times the cost of a Big Mac:
Big Mac index worldwide 2018 | Statista
Now why should we trust your other numbers when you were so off on that one?

I can counter any anecdote you have with one of my own. I also know people from all over the world and NONE of them think our health care is better.

As for the Danish, I think this article lays it out:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes

I absolutely would support paying more in taxes for more services and a society with healthier kids, a more educated workforce, guaranteed month vacations each year, lower infant mortality rates, a shorter workweek thus more time with family, less eating out, fewer cars on the road, more money invested in clean energy, a longer life expectancy, guaranteed paid maternity AND paternity leave, and a dignified comfortable retirement for ALL working people. Capitalism like we have in the U.S. is a failure. We are a rich country and we can affird to put families, healthcare, education, rest, and the environment before profits.

Rule number one, if you are going to respond directly to what I say, you need to read exactly what I say. Especially if you are going to throw in some accusations against my character.
You “ahem” misrepresented the price of a happy meal in Denmark, unless it is 4 times the cost of a Big Mac:

You "ahem" didn't read where I specifically said "Danish if they would be willing to trade their $25 value meals at McDonalds"

Did I say Happy meal? Do you see "happy meal" in my words? No, you do not. Do you see "big mac" in my words? No you do not.

By the way, as one who worked at several fast food joints, I think big mac index is a very lousy way of determining anything. Everyone in the business knows that the burgers are not where the stores making their operating profit. It comes from the fries and drinks. If McDonald's only sold big macs, they would go out of business. But anyway.....

McDonald's in Denmark do indeed have value meals that are $15 to $16, at the base price. Meaning a large size meal, is upwards of $18 to $20, plus Denmarks 25% sales tax.

In other words, my original statement was dead on accurate.

Um, yes wages are profit. Of course they are.

I work for a company that builds-to-order computers for customers. I also do build-to-order computers for customers at home. I would assume that you believe that if I build a computer and sell it to a customer directly, that you admit this is profiting. Well if I sell to a customer indirectly, through my employer.... what's the difference? I'm still making a profit off of my labor, whether I sell directly to the customer, or indirectly through my employer. Both are profiting.

Are you suggesting that Warren Buffet is not profiting from his $100K salary?
 
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Andrew77

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As for the Danish, I think this article lays it out:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes

I absolutely would support paying more in taxes for more services and a society with healthier kids, a more educated workforce, guaranteed month vacations each year, lower infant mortality rates, a shorter workweek thus more time with family, less eating out, fewer cars on the road, more money invested in clean energy, a longer life expectancy, guaranteed paid maternity AND paternity leave, and a dignified comfortable retirement for ALL working people. Capitalism like we have in the U.S. is a failure. We are a rich country and we can affird to put families, healthcare, education, rest, and the environment before profits.

And that's fine. The people of Greece said the same thing, right up to the point their government went broke, and the country imploded.
The people of Venezuela said the same thing, right up to the time the government went broke, and they were serving dogs for diner, because there was no food.

But that's fine! They can choose their way.

https://www.danskebank.com/en-uk/ci...nts/Research_Denmark_HouseholdDebt_130217.pdf

Danish households' gross debt is one of the highest in the world, in proportion to the size of the economy. Measured in percent of nominal GDP, gross debt is 133%; if measured by percent of disposable income; gross debt is 261%.​

Now that is fact. Danish people are the most indebted people in the world. They make Americans look entirely fiscally responsible.

But that shouldn't be surprising, when they demand government pay for all their free stuff, and as a result they have to borrow money for everything, because taxes are so high.

You posted opinions. That's fine. I post facts.
 
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RDKirk

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And that's fine. The people of Greece said the same thing, right up to the point their government went broke, and the country imploded.
The people of Venezuela said the same thing, right up to the time the government went broke, and they were serving dogs for diner, because there was no food.

But that's fine! They can choose their way.

https://www.danskebank.com/en-uk/ci...nts/Research_Denmark_HouseholdDebt_130217.pdf

Danish households' gross debt is one of the highest in the world, in proportion to the size of the economy. Measured in percent of nominal GDP, gross debt is 133%; if measured by percent of disposable income; gross debt is 261%.​

Now that is fact. Danish people are the most indebted people in the world. They make Americans look entirely fiscally responsible.

But that shouldn't be surprising, when they demand government pay for all their free stuff, and as a result they have to borrow money for everything, because taxes are so high.

You posted opinions. That's fine. I post facts.

Healthcare is not equal to "all their free stuff."

But there are two things that we are already paying more for that people actually get in other countries, and that's health care and education.

We as individual taxpayers aren't saving a dime on either and are getting less.
 
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dogs4thewin

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And how would private for profit insurance be better in that case? What you just gave as a reason to reject universal healthcare is actually an example of why we need young healthy people in the pool. And in our country, there is no requirement for young healthy people to be in the pool which is one of the reasons costs are so high.
and there should not be such a requirement as long as the young person realizes what that could mean if something happens.
 
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RDKirk

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and there should not be such a requirement as long as the young person realizes what that could mean if something happens.

And since America is not going to let him die on the hospital steps as would, say, the Philippines, then taxpayers are going to pay for him anyway.
 
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And since America is not going to let him die on the hospital steps as would, say, the Philippines, then taxpayers are going to pay for him anyway.
but we can limit it to just keeping them alive. Get them comfortable kick them out and not allow people to use the ER like their standard doctor.
 
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And since America is not going to let him die on the hospital steps as would, say, the Philippines, then taxpayers are going to pay for him anyway.
Also could we not go back to that let people depend on other people's kindness whether than the law if they get into trouble.
 
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