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Featured THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. Yes

    57.1%
  2. No

    23.8%
  3. I don't know what REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY is

    9.5%
  4. I don't know what SUPERSESSIONISM IS

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Does it matter?

    4.8%
  6. Other

    4.8%
  7. I don't know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And the point to your semantics?
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As John described, such counterfeits have existed in the Church since its beginnings, and will exist until time ends and eternity begins. The apostate papacy was the predominant manifestation of such a counterfeit in the Reformation era. There were others before, and have been and will be others since, but no singular exclusive "the Antichrist" of all time.

    No one was more aware of the times in which they lived than the Reformers. It cost multitudes of them their lives. Likewise, preterists recognize that believers are called to experience tribulation, as did the Reformers, and as has the Church throughout its entire history.

    No rapture for anyone. But only preterists and other non-dispensational believers recognize it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Re-read the words of Bro. Larkin and note his use of the word "originate(d)".

    Then scroll down my post and note the synonym "invent".
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not for me.
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Of course! 1000's of Apostate Jews have come to Christ over the past 20 centuries, of that there is no doubt.

    Jesus forgave everyone at the Cross and excused their ignorance, but, the Jews were given 40 yrs to repent before 70Ad took everything away from them.......

    Similar to Jonah and the City of Nineveh[both of which are mentioned in Matthew 12:41 Luke 17:32] They ended up repenting in sackcloth.....
    Paul isn't charging the Gentiles with blasphemy........pre 70AD

    Romans 2:23
    Who in law are boasting through the transgression of the Law, the God thou are dishonoring 24 'For the name of the God is being blasphemed in the Nations because of ye,
    [Psalm 74:10]

    James didn't blame the Gentiles for Jesus' murder.....pre 70AD

    James 5:6 Ye condemn, ye Murder<5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

    And received their due recompense in 70Ad.......

    Revelation 9:21 And not they repent/reform out of their murders<5408>, nor out from their sorceries,...........
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The book "Coming of Messiah, in Glory and Majesty" by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza, and Edward Irving's English translation of the book, is the original source of modern Dispensational Theology, as the sources below will confirm.

    I produced the following YouTube video in order to show this truth in black, and white, directly from Lacunza's book, and Edward Irving's Preliminary Discourse which Irving added to his translation of the book.

    Irving used the word "dispensation" thirteen times on one page.

    (Time 8:00 in the video.)

    Lacunza wrote the book under the invented name of "Ben Ezra, a converted Jew".



    Genesis of Dispensational Theology



    PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
    with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
    F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
    http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  7. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Be that as it may be, John did not deny that the coming of a person known as the Anti-Christ. Otherwise, he would have dispelled such a notion in his epistles, but he did not. What he was saying that is that the spirit of Anti-Christ was already at work in that there were already many antichrists in the world of which the Papal Caesars would have been an example.



    Dispensationalists would agree that at present believers must expect to experience trials and tribulation, but the difference between the Preterist and the Dispensationalist is that the Dispensationalists, the vast majority of them, believe that a time is coming that is so terrible that Christ has declared that He would keep those who trust in Him from that hour of testing to come upon the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

    Christians have gone through trying times throughout history and even today, but the worst has not yet come which will require those who come to Christ beforehand to be protected from the things to come but that is a study in and of itself and is probably best debated on another thread. I do not know about you, but I do not wish to get in trouble with LLOJ for going off topic. He already called us out on that once before.
     
  8. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the cited sources think that a couple of Jesuit priests were the originators of modern Dispensationalist theology, they apparently have not studied the doctrines of the ante-Nicene era. The prevailing eschatology of the day held much more in common with modern Dispensationalist theology than with any form of Preterism.

    What the Jesuit priests had done was merely revive a doctrine that was suppressed as part of a counter-reformation campaign, but in an ironic twist, their actions did not in any sense hinder the reformation; unbeknownst to them, they were actually helping it. They were taking a literal eschatological approach just as the second century church fathers had done.
     
  9. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well I don't care about commentaries in Bibles. You will find those that agree with allegorical interpretation and I will find mine that AGREE WITH LITERAL, HISTORICAL, GRAMMATICAL INTERPRETATION! And in the 17th century most of teh church was still inteh throes of allegorism as the main tool to understand SCripture going back to Augustine.

    And no it is not to make Dr. Varner a lone fool. He has tons of company!

    But once again let us look at what your preacher said and compare it with Scripture!

    He declared the 490 years of Daniel are continuous and ended in 34 AD.

    So let us look at the events he said took place after 69 weeks or 483 years! and what Daniel said!

    Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    I do not deny Jesus public ministry began after the baptism of JOhn (He was led in to the wilderness for forty days and then He spent time gathering the 12) His first public act was at teh Wedding Feast of Cana

    And Yes He was cricified approx. 3 1/2 years later! That is where Varner veers from Scripture!

    Verse 26 "after 483 years shall Jesus be killed but not for Himself!"

    If we are to follow Varners timeline Jesus began His ministry the same time He was crucified according to Daniel!

    Verse 26 again!
    Daniel 9:26 King James Version (KJV)
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    So we either have to back his death up 49 years if you don't want to include the first 7, or He died after 69 7's or 483 years! And saying that means "sometime after 483 years" is hogwash! that is twisting SCripture to fit a preconceived bias! 3 1/2 years would be 486 1/2 years. And given that Gods has been so specific so far in Daniel I don't think He needed editors to allegorize after to mean 3 1/2 years after.

    Baptism is not an anointing! It never was thought that .

    So Jesus (according ot your preacher) started HIs ministry and died after 483 years according to the Scripture!

    or

    According ot all messianic Jews who are adept at Hebrew that I have read or studied under. The 69 weeks ended when Jesus made His triumphal entry on Palm Sunday and then the next week He was cut off but not for HImself!

    And the best you have done to finish the 490 years is to give us an approximate by Paul going out to the gentiles! Well Paul started His ministry sometime in the mid 30's and it is a further stretch to believe that Paul preaching ot the gentiles (when the other Apostles were still preaching to the Jews)

    fulfilled all what was to occur to the Jews in the 490 years- even the Watchtower is not that far fetched!

    Close is good for horseshoes but not for
    Biblical prophesy!
     
  10. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "What! have we supplanted the Jews? No, but we are said to be their supplanters, for that for our sakes they were supplanted."


    Augustine did not view the Church as supplanting Israel unlike others in his day and before him.


    "If they had not been blinded, Christ would not have been crucified; His precious Blood would not be shed; if that Blood had not been shed, the world would not have been redeemed. Because then their blindness hath profited us, therefore hath the elder brother been supplanted by the younger, and the younger is called the Supplanter. But how long shall this be?..."


    But if the Church had been made to supplant Israel, it would not be forever, which was the prevailing thought of the time. Augustine tells us why:


    "The time will come, the end of the world will come, and all Israel shall believe; not they who now are, but their children who shall then be."


    Augustine, like many others, believed that there were two Israels:


    1. The nation of the Jews descended from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    2. The Church whom they believed was presently serving as the Israel of God because of the Jews' rejection of Jesus, but only in a temporary sense since it was widely believed that the nation of Israel would one day be brought to repentance.


    Now the forthcoming salvation of Israel could not have been in reference to the Church. The Church was already saved and believed to have been made the stewards of the promises that the nation of Israel once had.

    It could only have been in reference to Israel the nation and it was believed in that day that when Israel repented, all that pertained to the nation would be restored and fulfilled. The context of the cited quote does not give any reason to believe that Augustine thought otherwise.
     
  11. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And what is there about his usage of the word that I am supposed to see?
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "The source you cite only proves my point in stating that the Jesuits did not invent the basis for Dispensationalist doctrine..."

    Remember who said that?
     
  13. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The timeline between the crucifixion of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple may not have been exactly forty years since some historians place the crucifixion of Christ around 33 A.D. The exact year in which Christ was born has been a debatable matter as well.



    I do not know what version of scripture you are quoting this passage from, but in the Geneva and King James, the righteous is presented in a more generalized context rather than just one person, plus the verses preceding the cited passage make clear that the charges of wickedness stated by James were not against the Jewish people as a whole but against those of the upper classes who were corrupt, dishonest, and even condemned and killed the innocent.



    Nothing to do with the Jews, but events yet to come that did not happen in 70 A.D.
     
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And they did not. Even your cited source only mentioned that in theory and not as fact.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's nothing whatever in what Augustine has said that suggests he believed in a national restoration.

    His declarations are overwhelmingly spiritually oriented. He expected not national restoration, but spiritual recognition and reception.

    That would be fully consistent with the tone and tenor of all of his expressed convictions.

    If you can find the substrings "Israel/nation/restor" anywhere in his writings, in close enough proximity to one another to suggest that was his expectation, I would certainly change my mind.

    I'm prepared to wager that you won't.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where did Larkin say it was theory not fact?

    Quote please.
     
  17. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is nothing in what Augustine said to suggest that he did not believe in a national restoration. That he believed that the Church only held the title of Israel in a temporal sense ought to make that clear enough. But he, like many others in his day and before, believed that spiritual restoration, as it pertained to the Jews, was where it would begin
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I await your evidence.
     
  19. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whenever anyone says, "it may be said...", the intent of the statement is theoretical and not intended as fact.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Can you show us any proof where these earlier sources claimed modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church during a future time, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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