The True Church? I'm Disillusioned.

Can you be Eastern Orthodox and a Universalist at the same time?


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ArmyMatt

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Only 2 churches could possibly be the first/original church. Quite frankly, I believe the Orthodox church has remained truer to the early church.

As to my other point...
if one is NOT in the Body of Christ,,,HOW are they not lost?

And I can say now that I'm not one of those that believes that only those that know Jesus are going to heaven.

Many do not know Jesus and are going to be with God.

being the true Church means not only a historical connection, but also that you have maintained the belief. so only one (or none) can make that claim.

and you do have to be in the Body of Christ, but you have until Judgment Day to get there.
 
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GodsGrace101

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being the true Church means not only a historical connection, but also that you have maintained the belief. so only one (or none) can make that claim.

and you do have to be in the Body of Christ, but you have until Judgment Day to get there.
Agreed on the first,,as I've already stated.

As to the 2nd paragraph....
when is judgment day?

There's a church near me that believes you can be saved AFTER death.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Agreed on the first,,as I've already stated.

As to the 2nd paragraph....
when is judgment day?

There's a church near me that believes you can be saved AFTER death.

no, you said 2 can make the claim. only 1 can make the claim.

and it's whenever the Lord returns. we can't repent after death to be sure, but God's mercy isn't limited.
 
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Lukaris

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If everyone is going to be saved why does Christ say for the Father to forgive His crucifiers ( Luke 23:34 ) or why does St. Stephen follow the Lord’s example ( Acts of the Apostles 7:59-60 )?

There is a wide range of mercy in the Lord’s salvation for the Christian & non Christian if one carefully reads John 3:16-21. I believe what St. Paul says in Romans 2 reflects this. Nonetheless there is a judgment as the Lord affirms in John 5:22-30.

Surely the Lord Himself (in His human will) & those who imitate Him ( like St. Stephen) make a universal plea for salvation. That is all we can do & pray we do not have to try to affirm that while suffering torture.
 
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GodsGrace101

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no, you said 2 can make the claim. only 1 can make the claim.

and it's whenever the Lord returns. we can't repent after death to be sure, but God's mercy isn't limited.
ArmyMatt,,,,
Two can make THE CLAIM...
but only one can be right.

To claim something does not make it so....

Blessings.
 
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ArmyMatt

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ArmyMatt,,,,
Two can make THE CLAIM...
but only one can be right.

To claim something does not make it so....

Blessings.

well, if that's what you meant, more than two can make the claim.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I note that OP hasn't logged in for quite a while, although perhaps this is no longer about helping her.

it's because this was a dead thread that was restarted by a universalist who hasn't posted on here in a while.
 
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ClementofA

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I note that OP hasn't logged in for quite a while, although perhaps this is no longer about helping her.

Perhaps people who haven't logged in in a while still receive email notifications & can read without logging in?
 
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ClementofA

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it's because this was a dead thread that was restarted by a universalist who hasn't posted on here in a while.

Had been dead for about only a week.

I was invited to look here by a rabid EO opposer of universalism in the following post, who also started the thread by the same title:

People who believe in and promote Universalism Anathematize themselves

By that title is he damning to your endless torture chamber all such as myself?

Then, perhaps, i'll be able to enjoy the good company of Saint Origen:

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
 
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ClementofA

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Our theology teaches no such thing. Enjoy burning down your strawman.

You misunderstand. There's no strawan. The material below the line of stars in my post has no intended relevance to the post i am replying to. Just like your added material in your post which states:

"Step aside Coffee.
This is a job for Alcohol!"


*********************************************************

________________________________________________________


Psa.145:17

New American Standard Bible
The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds.

Kind in sending people to a lake of His fiery love lightning bolts shooting into people torturing them for all eternity? Did He never hear of mercy killing or annihilation? What a sadist! He's infinitely worse than Hitler, Satan & Stalin combined. Wake up!

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
 
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prodromos

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Such doctrines are a joke

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology.

rabid universalism opposing
Your posts are greatly lacking the fruits of the Holy Spirit, which would lead one to assume that your interpretation of Scripture is similarly lacking the guiding of the Holy Spirit.
If you wish people to listen to you I would suggest producing fruit in keeping with the Holy Spirit. As it is you have repeatedly broken a number of general rules of CF by goading/flaming and spamming the thread with the same content again and again. I'm surprised no one has reported you, even though we do allow a lot of lee way in this sub forum.
 
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prodromos

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You misunderstand. There's no strawan. The material below the line of stars in my post has no intended relevance to the post i am replying to. Just like your added material in your post which states:

"Step aside Coffee.
This is a job for Alcohol!"
I do not add the above to my posts, it is part of my profile so it is automatically put at the bottom of every post.
You, on the other hand made the effort to add what I quoted to the bottom of your post, so why would anyone assume it was not part of your post?
 
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ClementofA

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Your posts are greatly lacking the fruits of the Holy Spirit, which would lead one to assume that your interpretation of Scripture is similarly lacking the guiding of the Holy Spirit.

Lol. Have you never read the words Jesus, Paul, James, John, the OT prophets, ECF, etc. They must have been lacking in the fruit of the Holy Spirit, too, eh? My remarks are tame compared to theirs.

You judge me, my heart. I judge no one.

And in regard to that, what do forum rules say about THAT.

And, once again, as i often have, i'll sign off with these words:

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.
 
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ClementofA

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I do not add the above to my posts, it is part of my profile so it is automatically put at the bottom of every post.

That's just semantics. You chose to add those words, which you put below a line of stars. I also added words below a line of stars. If you look at my other posts you can see the below the stars material is often clearly irrelevant to what i am replying to. That is, if you don't believe me.

You, on the other hand made the effort to add what I quoted to the bottom of your post, so why would anyone assume it was not part of your post?

Maybe - one - could ask why the line of stars is there & if that material is saying anything about EO, as it made no mention of that religion.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Had been dead for about only a week.

I was invited to look here by a rabid EO opposer of universalism in the following post, who also started the thread by the same title:

People who believe in and promote Universalism Anathematize themselves

By that title is he damning to your endless torture chamber all such as myself?

Then, perhaps, i'll be able to enjoy the good company of Saint Origen:

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

well, the title doesn't damn anyone, looking at the thread I don't think he actually invited you, and hell isn't a torture chamber.

and the Orthodox still don't take DBH seriously.
 
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ClementofA

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and hell isn't a torture chamber.

Oh, really:

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox New Testament:

Rev.20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night, unto ages of ages.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

Young's Literal Translation:

Rev.20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

"Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament
βασανίζω

(< βάσανος ),

[in LXX: 1 Samuel 5:3, Sirach 4:17, and freq. in Wis, 2,4 Mac;]

1. prop., to rub on the touchstone, put to the test.

2. to examine by torture, hence, generally, to torture, torment, distress: Matthew 8:6; Matthew 8:20; Matthew 14:24, Mark 5:7; Mark 6:48, Luke 8:28, 2 Peter 2:8, Revelation 9:5; Revelation 11:10; Revelation 12:2; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10.†"

Strong's #928 - βασανίζω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
 
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ArmyMatt

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Oh, really:

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox New Testament:

Rev.20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night, unto ages of ages.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

Young's Literal Translation:

Rev.20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

"Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament
βασανίζω

(< βάσανος ),

[in LXX: 1 Samuel 5:3, Sirach 4:17, and freq. in Wis, 2,4 Mac;]

1. prop., to rub on the touchstone, put to the test.

2. to examine by torture, hence, generally, to torture, torment, distress: Matthew 8:6; Matthew 8:20; Matthew 14:24, Mark 5:7; Mark 6:48, Luke 8:28, 2 Peter 2:8, Revelation 9:5; Revelation 11:10; Revelation 12:2; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10.†"

Strong's #928 - βασανίζω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

yes, really, not a torture chamber. we don't read it that way. it helps if you know WHAT we believe about a certain passage prior to commenting on our belief.

it helps.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Two lame points.

Matthew 7:21-23
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony
If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
Question about eternal damnation
God loves those who are blaspheming the Holy Spirit - Theology Online
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Universalism in harmony with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism





Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


*****************************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

Neither of these can possibly be temporary because if at any time everyone who says Lord Lord to Jesus enters heaven then Matthew 7:21 becomes a false statement and likewise if at any time those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit are forgiven then Luke 12:10 becomes a false statement.
 
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