The Trinity

Kees Boer

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Of course we believe in the Trinity. I do and hopefully most if not all of y'all believe in that.

Can we make a list of Passages that prove the Trinity? This can be used for us when people question us. It would also be very nice if we could list some Passages from the Old Testament. For instance, how would we be able to teach the Trinity to King David from the Scriptures?
 
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Matt. 28:19
Go therefore baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son, and Holy Spirit.
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CosmicOsmo
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I find the concept of trinity to be a red herring.
Certainly Christ is God with us and the Holy Spirit of God was sent by Him but what exactly gives you the idea that it’s appropriate to assign a discrete number to describe God? Where in scripture does it say He is definitely not four or five? Why only three?
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SavedByGrace3

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David wrote this commonly used proof text showing the distinction between The Father Lord and the Son Lord.
Psalms 110
1{A Psalm of David.} The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
 
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Kees Boer

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Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum presents the doctrine of Godhead known as the trinity. Beginning in Genesis, he explains possible references of evidence for this doctrine in the Old Testament.


This is a very good video. Thank you for sharing it with us. Only thing is that many times in the Book of Isaiah, the Servant is referred to as Israel.
 
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Cornelius8L

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1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
 
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disciple Clint

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Of course we believe in the Trinity. I do and hopefully most if not all of y'all believe in that.

Can we make a list of Passages that prove the Trinity? This can be used for us when people question us. It would also be very nice if we could list some Passages from the Old Testament. For instance, how would we be able to teach the Trinity to King David from the Scriptures?
OK try these 50 Biblical Evidences for the Holy Trinity
 
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BobRyan

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Of course we believe in the Trinity. I do and hopefully most if not all of y'all believe in that.

Can we make a list of Passages that prove the Trinity? This can be used for us when people question us. It would also be very nice if we could list some Passages from the Old Testament. For instance, how would we be able to teach the Trinity to King David from the Scriptures?

One God - Deut 6:4
In Three Persons - Matt 28:19
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Of course we believe in the Trinity. I do and hopefully most if not all of y'all believe in that.

Can we make a list of Passages that prove the Trinity? This can be used for us when people question us. It would also be very nice if we could list some Passages from the Old Testament. For instance, how would we be able to teach the Trinity to King David from the Scriptures?
You could teach King David the trinity from the creation in Genesis. but him saying in the Psalm, the Lord said to my Lord - might mean you wouldn't have to.
 
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d taylor

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This is a very good video. Thank you for sharing it with us. Only thing is that many times in the Book of Isaiah, the Servant is referred to as Israel.

I am not sure what exact area you speak of but The Bible at times may go back and forth from speaking of Israel to this being a reference to The Messiah.
 
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The Liturgist

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One God - Deut 6:4
In Three Persons - Matt 28:19

Also John 1:1-18, which clearly establish that Jesus Christ is the incarnate Son and Word of God, who is God, by whom all things are made. John 1:1-14 is the appointed Gospel on Christmas Day in most churches, and is also read at the end of the traditional Roman mass that Pope Francis wants to abolish, as well as several liturgies influenced by it, including Protestant liturgies and the liturgy of the Armenian Apostolic Church. The Eastern Orthodox church reads it as the Gospel during the Paschal Divine Liturgy in the early morning of Easter Sunday, having earlier read, at Paschal Matins, the Shorter Ending of the Gospel of Mark.

The Eastern Orthodox also read at Matins throughout the year all seven Resurrection Gospels in rotation, in a seven week cycle, which combines with the eight week cycle of the eight tones of their music and the interface between the fixed feasts, and the variable feasts which depend on proximity to Christmas or Easter, to cause the liturgy to seem fresh every single Sunday. In fact if the traditional Sabaite-Studite Typikon is followed the liturgy is exactly the same only once every 537 years, by which time the music or other things would have changed. Indeed since the current version of the Typikon was put in place, it has repeated only once, in Mount Athos, Serbia, Montenegro and the Church of Jerusalem (since the Russians, Belarussians, Georgians and Ukrainians used an older version exclusively until 1666, which the Old Believers and Old Rite Orthodox still use, and in the 19th century Greece, Antioch, Alexandria, Cyprus and other Greek Orthodox churches except for the Holy Mountain (Mount Athos) and the Holy Land and Sinai (the Church of Jerusalem and its autonomous subsidiary, the Church of Sinai) adopted the simplified Violakis Typikon, except for a small number of Greek and Romanian Old Calendarists, who have been severely persecuted.
 
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Kees Boer

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I am not sure what exact area you speak of but The Bible at times may go back and forth from speaking of Israel to this a reference to The Messiah.
In Isaiah, I've seen many references to the Servant being Israel. It names Israel as the Servant. But then other times like Isa 52:13 describes the Servant as Christ and in Isa. 44:21, It is obvious that Israel is the servant.
 
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The Liturgist

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In Isaiah, I've seen many references to the Servant being Israel. It names Israel as the Servant. But then other times like Isa 52:13 describes the Servant as Christ and in Isa. 44:21, It is obvious that Israel is the servant.

Forgive me, but if we read the songs of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah, and in chapter 2 of the Wisdom of Solomon, they are clearly speaking about Christ our Lord, God and Savior, depicted here in a famous icon, Christ the Suffering Servant:

90757250-1256-4D72-AC5F-EFB07AB8A521.jpeg


Israel is a suffering servant only insofar as the Hebrew Religion and then Second Temple Judaism were forms of the Church before Pentecost, when Judaism properly defined was reorganized into the Christian Church. And since the Church is the Body of Christ, it shares in His sufferings, for it is persecuted, reviled, spat upon, its members killed brutally, but in dying they glorify God and are glorified.

This is why St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote a letter begging the Church in Rome from intervening to prevent his martyrdom, expressing his wish to die as Christ had died, that he might live.* “Birth pangs are upon me” he wrote, “Suffer me to become human.” And thus the Bishop of Antioch was one of many Christians fed to lions in the Coliseum for the amusement of Roman pagans:

Ignatius_of_Antioch_2.jpg


Another suffering servant was St. Anthony, a Coptic Christian who tried repeatedly and unsuccessfully to get the Romans to martyr him during the Diocletian persecution when so many Copts were killed, ranging from the very old to the very young (for example, St. Abanoub, a 12 year old boy, received the crown of martyrdom, but is very much alive in Christ and the miracles involving him by themselves would be enough to disprove the doctrine of “soul sleep”. God had other plans for him, that did not involve him effectively committing suicide by Roman soldier, that being what we now call the White Martyrdom**, which is holy celibacy and the monastic life.*** Once St. Anthony the Great was established as an anchorite and had, through the grace of God the Holy Spirit, fought off the passions and the demonic attacks, which before the devil seemed to give up (but Anthony remained vigilant, warning us to “Expect temptation until your last breath), God led him to an oasis where there lived another hermit, St. Pavli the Hermit, who was fed by birds, and when he died, lions who had guarded him buried him (St. Anthony saw this, for he visited St. Pavli twice, the second time on the occasion of his death).

We know about this because the biography of St. Anthony was written by St. Athanasius the Great, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the man who gave us the 27 book New Testament canon in its definitive form, after triumphantly returning to Alexandria following years of exile in Germany, for he the same bishop who defended Christianity from Arianism successfully at the Council of Nicaea, and later, after Arius and Eusebius of Nicomedia gained the confidence of Constantius, the heir to St. Constantine, and Eusebius persuaded him to begin a persecution of Christians that began around 335-340 AD and would not entirely end until a few years before 380 AD, St. Anthony was arrested, and sent to Trier.

St. Anthony the Great:

340px-Anthony_the_Great_%28coptic_icon%2C_19-20_c.%2C_priv._coll%29.jpg


St. Pavli the Hermit:

450px-Ava_Pavly_2.jpg


* That is, St. Ignatius sought through martyrdom life everlasting, because Christ promises to confess to the Father those who confess Him before men; martyrdom is paradoxically the easiest and the most difficult way of being saved, because it guarantees salvation, but naturally no one, not even Christ in his humanity, wants to be killed. However, if the price for escaping martyrdom is the guilt and shame of denying Christ, even though God will forgive this, or of escaping martyrdom while other less well connected Christians are killed, it is not worth it, which is why St. Peter had to endure until his martyrdom, just as St. Paul had to live with the guilt of persecuting Christians as a zealous Pharisee before experiencing a Christophany on the Road to Damascus.

** There is also the Green Martyrdom, which is Holy Matrimony. It is called this in Orthodox theology because in Orthodox Christianity, green symbolizes new life, which marriage between young adults can produce. Marriage is a martyrdom, in that each spouse must sacrifice for the welfare of each other, and that of any children whether from their own relationship, previous relationships or marriages, or adoption.

*** St. Anthony was the first well known anchorite, or solitary hermit, and the first of the Desert Fathers; monasticism came about as hermits began to live in close proximity to each other and assist one another as communities, and the organized cenobitic monastery or convent under an Abbot or Abbess began when several novices formed a community with the experienced desert Father St. Pachomius, who created the first monastic rule which inspired later rules of St. Benedict and St. Columba, but to this day the rule of St. Pachomius remains standard in Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monasteries, with variations to suit the need of each individual community, rather than the Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist approach of a religious order like the Benedictines or Dominicans or Carthusians or Servites where every monastery, convent, charterhouse, priory or friary follows the Rule of its respective order.
 
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The Liturgist

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If I just keep it to the Bible, I see Jesus, Israel, and Isaiah described as the Servant in Isaiah. Of course believers are all called to serve one another and Paul called himself a bondservant.

Well, the problem with that is that the supreme servant and master of all of us is Jesus Christ, and Isaiah is chiefly a book of Christological prophecy.

Also, forgive me, but “if you just keep it to the Bible” you are not going to understand how the same Early Church that popularized and canonized Isaiah and Wisdom as critical works of New Testament prophecy actually interpreted those works.
 
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Kees Boer

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Well, the problem with that is that the supreme servant and master of all of us is Jesus Christ, and Isaiah is chiefly a book of Christological prophecy.

Also, forgive me, but “if you just keep it to the Bible” you are not going to understand how the same Early Church that popularized and canonized Isaiah and Wisdom as critical works of New Testament prophecy actually interpreted those works.

Isaiah 8:20
 
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The Liturgist

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Isaiah 8:20

Isaiah 8:20 is not a proof-text against understanding what the early church thought about a text, because we are literally seeking the Testimony of the Martyrs, who confessed Christ before men, were killed for it, and Christ has confessed them before the Father.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Knox, and John Wesley were all advanced Patristics scholars.
 
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Lukaris

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The Lord God, in the Person of the Son of God, I believe spoke directly in Isaiah 48:12-18, in that He is the builder of the creation of His Father the Creator. He speaks of being sent by the Father & the Holy Spirit in verse 16. He declares His divinity in verse 17. I believe John 1:1-5 & John 1:14-18 confirms what is prophesied by Isaiah and attested to by St. Paul in Colossians 1:15-18. St. Paul sums up our redemption in the Son of God in relation to the 3 Persons of the Trinity in Ephesians 2:18 in relation to Ephesians 2:8-18.

It is interesting that the Lord mentions keeping the commandments in relation to His revelation of the Trinity in Isaiah 48:12-16. He clearly refers to this in John 14:15-18, indeed it is first & foremost to mortal man in verse 15 & then the Son testifies to His Father & the Holy Spirit. Surely John 14, John 15, & John 16 testifies to the Persons of the 1 God of the Trinity.

One note on the reference to Isaiah 48:16, the linked translation in CF is ok but could be better ( the King James, New King James, RSV are better on this one):


Isaiah 48:16
King James Version

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.





There are probably other places where the CF translation is better than the King James so as not to criticize the CF version. It seems one translation does better than another & vice versa in various places.
 
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The Lord God, in the Person of the Son of God, I believe spoke directly in Isaiah 48:12-18, in that He is the builder of the creation of His Father the Creator. He speaks of being sent by the Father & the Holy Spirit in verse 16. He declares His divinity in verse 17. I believe John 1:1-5 & John 1:14-18 confirms what is prophesied by Isaiah and attested to by St. Paul in Colossians 1:15-18. St. Paul sums up our redemption in the Son of God in relation to the 3 Persons of the Trinity in Ephesians 2:18 in relation to Ephesians 2:8-18.

It is interesting that the Lord mentions keeping the commandments in relation to His revelation of the Trinity in Isaiah 48:12-16. He clearly refers to this in John 14:15-18, indeed it is first & foremost to mortal man in verse 15 & then the Son testifies to His Father & the Holy Spirit. Surely John 14, John 15, & John 16 testifies to the Persons of the 1 God of the Trinity.

One note on the reference to Isaiah 48:16, the linked translation in CF is ok but could be better ( the King James, New King James, RSV are better on this one):


Isaiah 48:16
King James Version

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.





There are probably other places where the CF translation is better than the King James so as not to criticize the CF version. It seems one translation does better than another & vice versa in various places.

The CF is using the American Standard Version.
 
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