the Trib is NOT the Wrath Of God

[zeke37]

here's the order (from Rev only ) that I believe is correct, basically.

in this expose, the tribulation has passed,
so these scriptures are going to be fulfilled at the trib's end, the cusp so to speak, and at His Coming, and Just after it.


Rev19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be (will be) arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

so, the elect on earth, are now called to the supper. Jesus will leave heaven to go get them for the supper

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

as the Lord is Coming, Satan gathers the world powers against Him, Armageddon

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Rev16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Rev11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Rev6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Rev18:1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[zeke37]

...

 

[zeke37]

Rev14:And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


see Ez44 for the divisions of the Levites.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Christ died for us. hold to this fact until the end,
in the end times, there is THE particular threat of worshiping another.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


Rev19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Rev20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

these "beheaded" martyrs, like the beheaded John the Baptist, are inclusive with all righteous dead
and

the alive who did not take the mark,

Rev5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


so, from these scriptures, we can easily see that
the trib has passed, and that it is wrath of God time, after that

ergo, the trib is not the wrath of God, that Christians are not appointed to.

 

[Epoisses]

The seven last plagues which are referred to as the 'wrath of God' (Rev. 15:1) are poured out during the great tribulation/time of trouble.

The 7th plague conludes with the 2nd coming. All the plagues would be considered God's wrath not just the last one. I'm not even sure what you're trying prove with all this.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Yes, the tribulation is not the wrath of God. The church is in heaven before the tribulation. The main harvest will occur before the wrath of God.

You are confusing the marriage supper that will occur in heaven to the supper that the vultures are called to on earth. Not the same.

 

[Ronald]

So people on earth don't feel tribulation during God's wrath? lol
How is wrath considered not part of tribulation? If someone described the first day of a storm and then said, "After that day, we got out of there". Does that mean the storm was over? The whole period is the Great Tribulation, the wrath part of it is towards the end but is included in the whole sphere of events. When scripture says, "after those days of tribulation", it does not mean that there aren't more days to come, it just simply means - after the events I just told you about, this happens next ...

 

[zeke37]

The seven last plagues which are referred to as the 'wrath of God' (Rev. 15:1) are poured out during the great tribulation/time of trouble.

The 7th plague conludes with the 2nd coming. All the plagues would be considered God's wrath not just the last one. I'm not even sure what you're trying prove with all this.

perhaps I should have reworded the OP's title a little better

Christians are not appointed to wrath.
we know that.
but the tribulation is NOT the wrath spoken of.

the wrath spoken of, that we are not appointed to, comes after the tribulation

and I think these scriptures show that.

Yes, the tribulation is not the wrath of God. The church is in heaven before the tribulation.

no they are not. only the dead among us are in heaven.

The main harvest will occur before the wrath of God.

where is that stated? is it stated in Rev?

if you think the 6th seal is the end of the trib,
doesn't that mean that any gathered after this, as in Rev7, is after the trib?
especially when they say that they came out of tribulation

You are confusing the marriage supper that will occur in heaven to the supper that the vultures are called to on earth. Not the same.

it's the same, and the marriage supper is on earth, not heaven.

So people on earth don't feel tribulation during God's wrath? lol
How is wrath considered not part of tribulation? If someone described the first day of a storm and then said, "After that day, we got out of there". Does that mean the storm was over?

well, that is not the point of the OP
the OP's point is that the wrath that we as Christians are not appointed to, is not the trib.

there is no leaving the planet before the trib,
and this thread shows that the wrath of God that we are not appointed to, is something that happens after the trib is over.

it's what comes after the trib

The whole period is the Great Tribulation, the wrath part of it is towards the end but is included in the whole sphere of events. When scripture says, "after those days of tribulation", it does not mean that there aren't more days to come, it just simply means - after the events I just told you about, this happens next ...

well, we don't know that.
it is implied by most, to mean the day that all those signs are fulfilled, including Christ's return

but I was trying to stay within Rev, to show that the wrath of God is not the tribulation, but rather what follows it.

 

[Ronald]

the OP's point is that the wrath that we as Christians are not appointed to, is not the trib.

Still differenciating between tribulation and wrath.
Why not just say we leave before the wrath, at the 7th trumpet sound?
We'll see soon enough though. Weren't you a Pre-Tribber? And now I see a different view?

... is something that happens after the trib is over

When the trib is over, that means sin and evil are put down and there is peace, (which means the absense of tribulation: stress, pain, sufferring and death)

 

[zeke37]

Still differenciating between tribulation and wrath.

ummmm, ya.
all those scriptures I just posted actually mention the wrath...and all those scriptures are clearly after trib.

Why not just say we leave before the wrath, at the 7th trumpet sound?

we don't "leave" anywhere.
Christ comes here at the 7th trump, raises the dead and gathers us together with them.
right here.

as long as He's not mad at you, your physical location does not matter when Christ returns.

We'll see soon enough though. Weren't you a Pre-Tribber? And now I see a different view?

I was, yes, but an uneducated one.
just took it for granted that the rapture was pre trib, cause family said so.
but it isn't so.

When the trib is over, that means sin and evil are put down and there is peace, (which means the absense of tribulation: stress, pain, sufferring and death)

ok, then after that, it is wrath of God time,
the wrath that we are not appointed to, if we are written in the book.

the trib is not THAT wrath.

 

[Choose Wisely]

zeke37;62095239]

if you think the 6th seal is the end of the trib,
doesn't that mean that any gathered after this, as in Rev7, is after the trib?
especially when they say that they came out of tribulation

Yes

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

I'm completely on point with Zeke on this.

I used to have a much different opinion based on how I was raised, but now, the OP's views match perfectly with scriptures.

The only thing I might disagree on is "no they are not. only the dead among us are in heaven."

I personally think that once you're dead, you're dead, but you continue to be dead until you are raised on that final day.

Being in Heaven but somehow then being raised from the dead to meet back up with Christ in the clouds doesn't seem to make all that much sense to me.

Anyway, great thread.

For those who are expecting an early escape off this rock, sorry, but I think you're going to be in for a pretty bad let down.

 

[zeke37]

I'm completely on point with Zeke on this.

I used to have a much different opinion based on how I was raised, but now, the OP's views match perfectly with scriptures.

The only thing I might disagree on is "no they are not. only the dead among us are in heaven."

I personally think that once you're dead, you're dead, but you continue to be dead until you are raised on that final day.

hi
it's a study, but one that reveals that we do go directly to heaven at death.
and we are conscious there, waiting for our return ehre with Him
maybe i'll start a thread on that too.
to summarize off the top of my head...

-after the crucifixion, Christ "went" to see the dead for three days, and he converted many
-Samuel is seen as a ghost/spirit by Saul
-Moses's body is contended over in heaven.
-the angel of Rev19/22, says that he was a fellowservant and one of the prophets
that holds the Commandments and follows Christ
-in Rev6's 6th seal, the martyrs are fully aware, waiting for vengeance
-in Rev12, there is rejoicing in heaven by the righteous dead, while proclaiming WOE to us on earth
-in Rev19's opening, there's plenty of people in heaven singing praise, and that's before Christ leaves to come here and get His Bride
-in Mar13 Christ gathers together His elect, from Heaven and earth
-in 1Cor15, Paul details the different kinds of bodies, physical/earthly and spiritual/heavenly

-and in 1Thes4, we learn that the Lord shall leave heaven with the dead in Christ,
and bring them with Him at His Coming.
and when He does, He "raises" them here (the Resurrection of the just), as promised over and over again in scripture.
and only AFTER all that, the events of 1Thes4:17 occur.

in 1Thes4, after the Greek breakdown and 1Cor15 comparison,
the dead in Christ are brought here, raised here,
and then we who are alive at that time, are changed into AIR (a synonym for spirit, ie the angelic like bodies of 1Cor15)
and seized (wrongly translated caught up) by Christ....
we are gathered together with those returned and raised dead,
into a great big cloud of witnesses/believers. see Heb12:1(and Heb11)

Christ is Coming here, staying here.
so there is no pick up, and then off to heaven.
the camp of the Saints is here in Rev20

whether we fly to Jerusalem, or walk there, makes little difference to the over all outcome.

Being in Heaven but somehow then being raised from the dead to meet back up with Christ in the clouds doesn't seem to make all that much sense to me.

ya, that would be strange. it's not what happens, when we dive into the Greek and compare Paul's other works.
I know that pre trib is false, so what was Paul really talking about...

the scriptures reveal that there is no "going up" to meet Him at His Coming.
that is only mentioned one time in the bible (going up), and it is a translational error in 1Thes4:17.
it is not "caught up" in the Greek language/manuscripts at all...
it's seized in Greek. that's it. there is no "up"

Christ is Coming here, we are not going there.

we are seized to Christ in the mystery changed spiritual body (1Cor15) like the dead have,
and gathered together with the Clouds of Heaven (the returning righteous)

Paul is mirroring what He told the Corinthians, but with different words.
remember that he told the Corinthians that at the Lord's Coming,
that the dead in Christ shall rise (resurrection)
and we (who are alive at His Coming) shall all be changed to be like the angels (those dead in Christ).
because the Kingdom cannot be inherited by flesh, so we are all changed to be incorruptible

Christ is Coming here, as per Zec14, and staying here as per the same.
there's a lot of work to be done in the Millennium. See Ez44

Anyway, great thread.

thx...it was actually a response of mine in another thread, but I thought would make a good thread of it's own.

For those who are expecting an early escape off this rock, sorry, but I think you're going to be in for a pretty bad let down.

on that, we are in 100% agreement

 

[Choose Wisely]

Zippy the Wonderslug

For those who are expecting an early escape off this rock, sorry, but I think you're going to be in for a pretty bad let down.

I think I'll go with what God said. If you feel the need to stay here......

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Ronald]

we don't "leave" anywhere.[/COLOR]

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." 1Thes. 4:17
I guess he has you remain on the ground! I got it ... you are afraid of heights!

Christ comes here at the 7th trump, raises the dead and gathers us together with them

Hurray! I can't believe what I'm hearing. Congratulations, you got it bro!
It must have slip by me ... your change of view!

I was, yes, but an uneducated one.
just took it for granted that the rapture was pre trib, cause family said so.
but it isn't so.

And you kept at it with an earnest determination! That's the spirit, keep it up, He will reveal more things.

ok, then after that, it is wrath of God time,
the wrath that we are not appointed to, if we are written in the book.

the trib is not THAT wrath.

All righty, your pliable, that's good.

 

[zeke37]

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." 1Thes. 4:17
I guess he has you remain on the ground! I got it ... you are afraid of heights!

nope...love them...
it's just that the scripture in Greek does not teach that we go up anywhere, let alone to literal clouds

is there anywhere else in scripture that speaks of us going up
or are you basing this theory all on one line of badly interpreted/translated interpretation?

Hurray! I can't believe what I'm hearing. Congratulations, you got it bro!
It must have slip by me ... your change of view!

huh? that's been my view for many, many years, certainly all the years I've been on this forum.
that's post trib Bro....resurrection...time of the dead....reward...
same with 1Thes4...post trib...resurrection....reward

And you kept at it with an earnest determination! That's the spirit, keep it up, He will reveal more things.

All righty, your pliable, that's good.

first off, I've always said that.
second, stop the backhanded insults, disguised as compliments...
just say what is on your mind...
God knows the heart....and intention.



it's all post trib, no pre trib or mid trib leaving...it's post trib gathering...right here.

 

[zeke37]

Ronald, what is your view again?
I converse with so many, maybe I mixed up your view.

i'm pre mill, post trib...we stick around for everything up to and including eternity

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

maybe i'll start a thread on that too.

Yes please.

For quite some time now I've held the belief that once you're dead, you continue in this state until the final judgment day.

A state of thanatosis if you will.

Of course in your experience, Heaven or Hell will be immediate following death since the entire time that has passed you have been unconscious, but still, this waiting could last thousands of years without you even knowing.

Does this make any sense?

 

[zeke37]

there are many here who hold that view.
I don't, because of the scripture references I gave in this thread earlier.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Zippy the Wonderslug



I think I'll go with what God said. If you feel the need to stay here......

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Thought so.........

 

[Choose Wisely]

zeke37;62101518]

Nope...love them...
it's just that the scripture in Greek does not teach that we go up anywhere, let alone to literal clouds

Yes, I see it now. I understand. Even though it says that we are caught up TOGETHER with them in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air.....we must spiritualize this to understand. When the word clouds is used if you take the Greek back to the Hebrew and understand that when Jesus was changing water into wine, they tasted the wine in a small bowl and sometimes used a small loop. And wine is made from grapes....a fruit. So clouds in this case does not mean clouds in the sky, but it means a bowl of fruit loops.

That was refreshing. I think I can get as good at making stuff up as some of you guys. But the hard part for me is believing some of this made up nonsense. I don't know if I can get to that part. Kudos to you that can make stuff up and believe it.