The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

[Nanopants]

The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is literal or there is no real reason for the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic - it was a literal event or the gospel is unnecessary.

I believe the fall happened. I don't believe a fruit caused it.

 

[shturt678]

The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is literal or there is no real reason for the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic - it was a literal event or the gospel is unnecessary.

The trees are rightly regarded as sacramental in a sense, and definitely not literal.

Just ol' old Jack

 

[fhansen]

The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is literal or there is no real reason for the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic - it was a literal event or the gospel is unnecessary.

Yes, an act of disobedience of God by the parents of all humans was a literal event. A consequence of this act was to know good and evil. Evil is anything outside the will of God. Their act, itself, placed them squarely in that very arena; they were now outside His will, determining right and wrong for themselves, according to their will. All humanity would be in this separated condition, out of communion with God. They would experience life in a world where the Master is effectively gone-His hand no longer controlling man's moral world, a life He allowed them to choose. We now experience-or know- good and evil everyday: the good inherent in all of God's creation along with the evil of sin and the corruption and death it ushered in. We're asked, by His revelation and grace, to make a choice between the two, to turn back to Him, the ultimate Good, reversing Adam's decision, so to speak, or to continue along with the family tradition of sin and separation from Him.

 

[fhansen]

So the tree contains something in it that will make Adam/Eve "like God" and also "knowing good/evil." I think that this is a reference to being able to decide between good/evil for yourself, under your own power. Perhaps this explains why human beings always think they're good and always think they're right - they are their own god.

Regardless, we really need to study this tree of the knowledge of good/evil b/c clearly it is the reason why things are the way they are today. So this tree must hold the reason for everything.

I agree that the story of the fall contains important insights for us. And your mentioning of humans always thinking they're right is an important observation IMO. Humans have, I believe, an unreasonable preference to be right-we actually can prefer to be right, hate being wrong, even if truth is compromised or overridden in the process; being right even if it means forsaking the truth.

Adam's sin was to forsake God's righteousness for his own- to believe he knew better. And all evil -all wrong- is done in the name of right. Humans must justify their actions, even if only in the moment of committing the act, in order to be able to carry it out. So human self-righteousness is responsible for every sin, every moral evil, committed.

 

[x141]

The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is literal or there is no real reason for the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic - it was a literal event or the gospel is unnecessary.

The literal event was happening in them, as it happens in everybody everyday. The scriptures are full of this same process which is found in a great variety of forms.

 

[shturt678]

Gen.2:9 As in the sacraments by virtue of the divine Word the visible means become vehicles of divine grace, so here by virture of the divine Word, which designates the one tree as "the tree of life," "life" can in reality be imparted by its use when and under whatever circumstances God decrees.

In like manner, the second tree, as its name implies, becomes an agency appointed, man may come to an experimental knowledge of good and evil.

My point: Man when confronted with a choice, ie, no free-will due to thou shalt and thou shalt not, he may exercise that his decision is to do God's will, or he may refuse to make use of the command.

Just ol' old Jack

 

[Achilles6129]

For you does everything have to be literal in order for there to be a reason for the Gospel?

No, but there certainly had to be a literal fall or else there is no need for a gospel.

I believe the fall happened. I don't believe a fruit caused it.

Then you deny what the Bible says. Embedded in this fruit was the knowledge of good/evil - for some reason this knowledge was deadly to man and the cosmos - it is our job to figure out why. This tree, then, holds the key.

The trees are rightly regarded as sacramental in a sense, and definitely not literal.

Just ol' old Jack

Why so?

 

[Achilles6129]

I agree that the story of the fall contains important insights for us. And your mentioning of humans always thinking they're right is an important observation IMO. Humans have, I believe, an unreasonable preference to be right-we actually can prefer to be right, hate being wrong, even if truth is compromised or overridden in the process; being right even if it means forsaking the truth.

Adam's sin was to forsake God's righteousness for his own- to believe he knew better. And all evil -all wrong- is done in the name of right. Humans must justify their actions, even if only in the moment of committing the act, in order to be able to carry it out. So human self-righteousness is responsible for every sin, every moral evil, committed.

I agree with most of what you're saying here. But the question now is why the tree of the knowledge of good/evil was so dangerous for them. It obviously destroyed the cosmos, their bodies, their union with God, everything. Now the big question is why.

As far as why the tree of the knowledge of good/evil is placed in the garden, I think the answer is clear: God is required to present all truth to Adam/Eve. So the truth is that evil exists, even if it is outside of the nature of God. The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is that truth. So basically, God has to allow Adam/Eve the choice between serving him or not. The truth is, they can not serve him if they don't want to. They decide not to.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with most of what you're saying here. But the question now is why the tree of the knowledge of good/evil was so dangerous for them. It obviously destroyed the cosmos, their bodies, their union with God, everything. Now the big question is why.

As far as why the tree of the knowledge of good/evil is placed in the garden, I think the answer is clear: God is required to present all truth to Adam/Eve. So the truth is that evil exists, even if it is outside of the nature of God. The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is that truth. So basically, God has to allow Adam/Eve the choice between serving him or not. The truth is, they can not serve him if they don't want to. They decide not to.

The possibility of evil-of anything outside God's will- comes from the gift of free will given to man and angels. Evil arises as the gift is abused, as God is disobeyed. It's to choose a lesser good over a greater one; evil has no existence on its own since God didn't created it-it's simply the negation or decreasing of some good-it's a reduction or diminishing of the perfection of God's creation in some manner-caused by our choice. IMO the reason the tree is so dangerous is because eating of it-disobedience-is the rejection of God's authority-and therefore the rejection of God as god for man. From then on man had no god for all practical purposes, even though we can't even exist without Him. Faith is so important because it's the restoration, from man's side, of relationship/communion with God, from Whom all life flows, apart from Whom we can do nothing, including control our desires which can cause great harm to ourselves and neighbor. So eating of the tree was a great injustice, a disorder in God's universe, that, itself, constituted the very separation from God that defines evil. Man is called to recognize God's superiority; he's obliged to consciously subjugate himself to it. We just need to learn why we should do so-something Adam apparently didn't yet know. As we come to know God we come to trust in and love Him. As we come to love Him we want to obey, willingly, having come to recognize His goodness and the perfection of His wisdom over that of ourselves. Our own wisdom comes in recognizing and acknowledging His.

 

[Nanopants]

Then you deny what the Bible says.

No, I don't

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. -1 Cr 2:13

Consider the the word "holy." Can you point to anything on this material earth which you can use to derive the true meaning of this word? You can't, because it describes something that is beyond this world. Scripture uses words we learn through interaction with our material reality to describe things that are not material. It's another language.

Embedded in this fruit was the knowledge of good/evil - for some reason this knowledge was deadly to man and the cosmos - it is our job to figure out why. This tree, then, holds the key.

Christ said only one sin will not be forgiven- blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Let's connect the dots. This sin must involve imagining and speaking evil of what is good and holy. You can't imagine evil of what is not without some false knowledge of evil, and also of good.

 

[shturt678]

No, but there certainly had to be a literal fall or else there is no need for a gospel.



Then you deny what the Bible says. Embedded in this fruit was the knowledge of good/evil - for some reason this knowledge was deadly to man and the cosmos - it is our job to figure out why. This tree, then, holds the key.

Why so?

Trees are sacramental in the sense of a visible means of God's divine grace, ie, law and gospel sort of thing.

Just ol' old Jack

 

[Achilles6129]

After further reflection on the tree of the knowledge of good/evil, I am convinced that the only way that Biblical theology can possibly make sense is if the tree destroyed absolutely everything. In other words, the tree made Adam/Eve go from a state of absolute goodness to a state of absolute evil. Side effects, obviously, affected the entire universe itself.

I am convinced that far more went on at the tree of the knowledge of good/evil than what modern Christianity thinks. Modern Christianity believes that "sin entered into the world" or something like that, but I think that's a very diluted statement. There was something far, far more dangerous that happened here and I believe that that is shown in the rest of Scripture.

This tree, then, must hold the key to answering all of our questions.

 

[fhansen]

After further reflection on the tree of the knowledge of good/evil, I am convinced that the only way that Biblical theology can possibly make sense is if the tree destroyed absolutely everything. In other words, the tree made Adam/Eve go from a state of absolute goodness to a state of absolute evil. Side effects, obviously, affected the entire universe itself.

I am convinced that far more went on at the tree of the knowledge of good/evil than what modern Christianity thinks. Modern Christianity believes that "sin entered into the world" or something like that, but I think that's a very diluted statement. There was something far, far more dangerous that happened here and I believe that that is shown in the rest of Scripture.

This tree, then, must hold the key to answering all of our questions.

Well, it certainly means that disobedience of God is very, very dangerous-and foolish.

 

[Achilles6129]

Agreed.

 

[BobRyan]

God warned man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil or else he would surely die. As a matter of fact, from Eve's statement we know that God actually told man not to even touch the tree of the knowledge of good/evil.

The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is responsible for human death, suffering, the fact that everything runs down (2nd law of thermodynamics), the fact that our bodies age, and the fact that we are evidently born with Adam/Eve's post-fall nature.

That's one dangerous tree.

1. It is unclear that Eve's statement in Gen 3 was an accurate recount of the word of God in Gen 2. They were told that they would die if they ate it - not that they would die of they touched it.

2. Sin resulted in death - Romans 5. The fact that Adam and Eve chose to sin - placed them on Satan's side of the debate between Christ and Satan in the Rev 12 war.

Christ had to then span that gap - bridge the great divide with the cross to save mankind.

Even so - all mankind have died except for Enoch and Elijah.

But not all will suffer the Rev 20 "second death".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[James Is Back]

God warned man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil or else he would surely die. As a matter of fact, from Eve's statement we know that God actually told man not to even touch the tree of the knowledge of good/evil.

The tree of the knowledge of good/evil is responsible for human death, suffering, the fact that everything runs down (2nd law of thermodynamics), the fact that our bodies age, and the fact that we are evidently born with Adam/Eve's post-fall nature.

That's one dangerous tree.

Can't blame the tree more less you can't blame a gun for killing someone.

Adam chose to disobey God and that's why we have problems today.

Something is only dangerous when we mess with it the wrong way.

 

[x141]

What the tree is the symbolism for is the key.

It was the death of innocence concerning thought.

In connection with this (seeing how God does not change), we should understand that God (as Paul said) would show by us the riches of his grace, which extends itself to the liberty of creation through the manifestation of this, was the purpose of God from before the beginning, and the purpose of Adam in this fellowship from the moment the commandment went forth as something being relative to this tree.

 

[BobRyan]

I am convinced that far more went on at the tree of the knowledge of good/evil than what modern Christianity thinks. Modern Christianity believes that "sin entered into the world" or something like that, but I think that's a very diluted statement. There was something far, far more dangerous that happened here and I believe that that is shown in the rest of Scripture.

This tree, then, must hold the key to answering all of our questions.

Wrong focus in my opinion. The answer is that "God is the answer to all of the questions" because God is the "source of all life".

So sin against God - is separation from the source of life - the result is death, disease and decay. Romans 8 says creation itself suffers under that separation.

In addition the loss of access to the "Tree of Life" -- has the vital force left in all living things on earth "running down over time" - faster and faster.

The vital force in Adam and Eve - was 20 times that which remains in mankind today.

The life spans even after the fall were 10 times that of mankind today.

Separation from the tree of life... sin against God... etc.

But that does not mean that unfallen angels or the heavenly universe itself is running down.

Each inhabited planet in the universe has beings created sinless by God - who remain sinless to this day - and who have access to the tree of life on their planet. Never having eaten from the tree of knowledge of evil.

The garden of Eden along with its tree of life and tree of knowledge of evil - no longer exists on earth today. Seeking out either tree as the ongoing cause of anything on earth is futile.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[x141]

I find it strange that one would think God to be a tree when he is the life, and this not bound by any image as to any one truth of him it reflects, and as something at the same time he is revealing to be us.

 

[BobRyan]

I find it strange that one would think God to be a tree when he is the life, and this not bound by any image as to any one truth of him it reflects, and as something at the same time he is revealing to be us.

God is not the true of knowledge - God is the author of the Law of the universe - and rebellion against the Word of God - is defined as sin in 1John 3:4.

And we are told that sin separates from God. Who is the source of all life according to the Bible.

The tree was just a context for testing the free will choices of mankind.

in Christ,

Bob