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The Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden: How does it relate to physical death?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 19, 2002.

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  1. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    actually you did not compare the actual scriptures "side to side" i did that, you compared your "interpretations"

    and since you seem to indicate that you are not in your immortal glorified form yet, and you also said you have to die for this to occur.

    GW you yourself are physical proof i am right! :D

    are you redeemed from the Law? YES just like Paul was in his epistles. the redemption made available bought this. this redemtion occurs during physical life on earth.


    are you redeemed from death YET? NO for the simple reason you have not died yet! you do not have eternal life yet but only the promise of it, just like Paul and every other pre70ad believer and you will not get it until after you die. :D your own mortality proves you wrong...

    so when Paul says this:

    Romans 3:23-25
    since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift , through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.[/ B] This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins"

    Ephesians 1:6-8
    to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.

    scripture means what it exactly says...all past tense concerning this redemption. this is the redemption you have now GW, the same redemption Paul had then, the redemption i have now.

    the body you have now is going to die. your not immortal, your not glorified, your spirit though redeemed is still in cursed mortal flesh that is doomed to death. this bodily redemption you do not have yet, you have to die first.


    1 Corinthians 15:36
    You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

    that is why it's called a "resurrection" what is dead is raised to live AGAIN...

    i see after looking at your "PS" your playing your usual semantics games...hinting at one thing then another. never really giving a straight answer.

    so i am asking you again GW are you in a mortal body or your immortal body? your in one or the other. which is it?
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    I put Romans 8:14-23 right up next to Galatians to show that they spoke of the exact same thing, not two different things with different referents separated by thousands of years.


    Wrong again. That is a straw man argument. The bible says that at the time of the resurrection of the dead ONLY THE DEAD ARE RAISED (1 Thess 4:15-16). The living did not and cannot precede the dead (1 Thess 4:15-16). The entire Church received eternal life (the change), but only the dead are raised immortal since all MUST shed the earthly body to get clothed with the Heavenly, immortal, spiritual body (1 Cor 15:36-38; 2 Cor 5:1-2). It is appointed to every man to die once. I have the eternal life that was promised to the Church, both the living and the dead in Christ; but only the dead ever experience immortal, heavenly, spiritual bodies. (1 Cor 15:36-38; 2 Cor 5:1-2).


    No. No one after AD 70 has been redeemed from the Law of Moses in that you and I nor anyone has ever been entangled in it -- no one since AD 70, that is. The state of mankind has returned back to the way it was PRIOR to the Mosaic Law Age which was a "parenthesis" in history (circa 1500 BC to AD 70). We are redeemed from eternal death, and I do believe I am redeemed now fully (God knows his Chosen ones). I do NOT only have a promise of it. I am among the Chosen and a son of God and a son of Abraham so I now have eternal life dwelling in me.


    You forgot to read on to see that you do NOT have this redemption except via an EARNEST (a pledge)...


    Eph 1:13-14
    In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession,
     
  3. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    LOL!!! now do that with Romans 8:10-11,23!!!!





    we are redeemed from SIN by the cross, not just the law that give knowledge of it! before i recieved grace i was destined for judgment, i was a sinner, your trying to make the gospel obselete here GW!!

    Colossians 1:14
    in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    straw man? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! if that is your reaction to reality then oh well!!

    FACT your already spiritually redeemed, otherwise you would not have the Holy spirit.

    FACT your still in a mortal body, you have not died yet.

    FACT your spiritual redemption and redemption from death are seperated by however long you live inbetwen those times.

    FACT you are either in your immortal glorified body or you are not. if you are not then your waiting to be after death, with the promise of the spirit through faith making you an heir, your bodily redemption is actually recieving the inheritance.


    LOL!!! how is that while the whole time i am reminding you you redemption from bodily death is something YOU are waiting on as well?!?!? :D


    ahh you posted the perfect scripture!!! let me add scripture that goes with it :D

    Ephesians 1:6-8
    to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us .

    Eph 1:13-14
    In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession ,

    and the "purchased possession is....

    1 Corinthians 6:19-20
    Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

    1 Corinthians 6:12-14
    "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food" --and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord , and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power

    yet another comparison to Christ's resurrection and ours, your describing the resurrection process as overcoming sin in the body "mortifying sin in the flesh" Christ did not have to do this, his flesh was sinless from day one. and we ae told repeatedly our resurrection will be like His...this completes the cycle begun in the Garden, Adam and Eve sinned, they were banished from the tree of life. the cross destroyed sin, mortal death destroys the body.

    from the dust we were made of we return, from the dust we were returned to we are resurrected from. the spirit goes on living in Christ and the body dies, and only what is dead needs a resurrection.

    you say the cross was a "mere death", you say there will be no second coming to look forward to, you say there is no resurrection of the body. what your doing is preaching a Christianity stripped of it's miracles, made into a intellectual theory devoid of spirit, a theory that has much evidence against it, including your own mortal self.
     
  4. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    Hello,

    Maybe I'm wrong. But this thread should be debated in the round table discussion. The PETCA forum isn't the place for this kind of debate.

    So I'm really sorry but I am closing this thread down and seeing whether I can move it to the appropriate forum.

    Thank you for your understanding!!!

    :)

    God loves you!!

    YM
     
  5. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    closed or moved..
     
  6. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    Just checking to see if it was locked-nevermind.
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Romans 8:10-13 is not talking at all about a resurrection of decayed mortal dead bodies in graves:


    Romans 8:10-13
    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin [not biological deadness], yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness [not bodily resurrection]. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead WILL ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit who dwells in you [the 'mortal body' here is our present, living, biological bodies]. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die [eternal death]; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live [eternal life].


    We see that by following Paul's discussion back to Romans 6 we have arrived at the correct sorting out of Paul's metaphor for ceasing to live according to the Old Self and for now living to the New Self as also parallel to:


    Romans 6:11-13
    Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin [not biological death], but alive to God in Christ Jesus [not bodily resurrection]. Therefore DO NOT LET SIN REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY so that you obey its lusts [the 'mortal body' here is our living biological earthly bodies], and do not go on presenting the members of your body [our earthly biological bodies] to sin as instruments of unrighteousness ; but present yourselves to God AS THOSE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD [metaphorically speaking], and your members [biological bodies] as instruments of righteousness to God.



    In both passages the topic is not about biological dying. It is using the metaphor that we have "crucified our old selves" and that we are also at the same time "resurrected to newness of life." Therefore we are to yield our mortal bodies to live after our NEW resurrected selves and not after our Old Selves. For if we now live "according to the flesh" (i.e., according to the old crucified self) we shall have eternal death. But if we shall live according to the Spirit via mortifying the sinful deeds of the flesh we have life everlasting in God's presence.



    There is only ONE redemption spoken of in the New Testament. I have that. You do not.


    Straw Man. The Church of both its living and its departed members ALL received eternal life at AD 70. To say that I have not died yet is to say nothing. I have received the total salvation that the living on the earth can ever receive. I wait for nothing. I do NOT cry out for any redemption nor wait for salvation for, as Paul wrote:


    Rom 8:24
    for who hopes for what he already sees?



    Wrong. I'm already redeemed from death. The Church of both its living and departed members all received eternal life together at AD 70 at the Parousia when the Law Age was destroyed, liberating all those saints who believed that they WOULD be justified by righteousness by faith. Physical death is nothing. It is natural and designed. God always intended that his Chosen ones would live on both Heaven and Earth. That is the Church's domain forever and ever. We as individual saints are first of the earthly universe and then of the heavenly universe (1 Cor 14:44-50).

    Wrong. I'm already an heir and the Church's "inheritance" exists over all of heaven and earth. The Church has inherited the earth as well as heaven. He has made us a kingdom of priests and we reign upon the earth. I'm now living within the earthly administration and fulfilling God's will here. And then I, personally, will live the rest of eternity in Heaven. The Church will exist both in heaven and in the earthly realm for ever and ever and ever as was intended by God. I am NOT waiting on redemption from bodily death. It is appointed to each man once to die physically (Heb 9:27; 1 Cor 15:35-38). It is God's intended will. Those who are raised from the dead can die no more (Rom 6:9; -- but they INDEED died once as is God's will (Heb 9:27).



    a. you are making an intentional misrepresentation that I have asked you to stop doing many times but that you won't respect.

    b. We live beyond the Parousia [PRESENCE] event and so Christ is here and his body is the Church-Temple built during the years AD30-70 and made Christ's wife when the Harlot Woman (Old Covenant Judaism) was destroyed. God walks among us now as Revelation 21:3 states. Revelation 21:3 and 2 Cor 6:16 are the same thing:


    2 Cor 6:16
    For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.


    This is not FUTURE. This is a present reality.


    c. There is no resurrection of decayed, earthly, sin flesh. Dust to dust is the divine will for the earthly, flesh, natural bodies. Jesus Christ was the ONLY one who escaped this fate as was also a MESSIANIC PROMISE (Acts 2:27-31). For all to become immortal they MUST experience physical death exactly according to 1 Cor 15:35-49 and 2 Cor 5:1-2. That is the resurrection of the dead for the saints. It is appointed to every man to die once.

    d. You are wrong. You have misunderstood the scriptures due to futurist presuppositions. The truth is that you are teaching an eschatology that strips Christ of his deity through making him and his followers false prophets and teachers. Your futurist view makes the scriptures errant and fully untrustworthy. Jesus made a promise to his disciples that he could not fail to honor to them:


    Matthew 24:33
    So, YOU too [Christ's apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    If Christ's prophecy failed then our whole discussion is moot. The apostles and Jesus Christ all taught and believed in a 1st century Parousia that would happen in their generation (which fits perfectly with the rest of the N.T. eschatology within the preterist view). If the Parousia did NOT occur in their lifetimes then Christianity is not divine, having been founded on prophets who made many prophecies that failed. It has been rightly asserted:


    "If Jesus returned within His generation, then the Futurist view is a lie. If Jesus didn’t return within His generation, then Christianity is a lie."


    The preterist view shows that Christ and the apostles are vindicated as true prophets whose teaching of a second coming of Christ in their lifetimes happened exactly WHEN and how they said. Preterism is an eschatology of victory for the eternal Church who has been given by God all dominion over Heaven and earth. We are living BEYOND the endtimes and there is no need for a third coming of Jesus Christ for Christ walks upon the earth (2 Cor 6:16), has a Temple and royal priesthood (Eph 2:19-22; 1 peter 2:4-9), and has a body (Col 1:24).
     
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    anyone?
     
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