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The Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden: How does it relate to physical death?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Apr 19, 2002.

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  1. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member


    the word "free" here is in the sense of "allowed" which would still leave choice, just as i am "free" to eat pizza one day or hamburgers the next, it does not matter what i eat, only the fact that i eat. i am "forced" to eat if i want to live this is true of pickles and fruit from the tree of life.

    when you look at how the seperation was restored, you find that this restoration is an undoing of the effect of knowing good and evil. Adam gained this knowledge from the fruit, we got it from the law, the effect was the same.

    as for saying physical death was a reality for man before the fall, i disagree. just for kicks lets say adam had choice to live or not... and we find it does not matter because it is a moot point. we are different than Adam because since we presently have no access to the tree of life, we have no choice...we are going to physically die. it is not a choice for us nor was it a choice for adam after his banishment. though Christ we have rewon our right to it, but our access will not be until we are resurrected.

    i agree. physical death in fact removes the barrier because we are resurrected with a body that is made worthy to be in His presence, just as becoming believers made us spiritually worthy. the barrier is the sin nature of the body. before adam and eve sinned, this barrier was not present.

    actually he did, to have access to the tree we have to die and be resurrected, no Christ=no resurrection of life and access to the tree. this is why in my orginal point i said it was important to remember that Adam was physically in paradise.

    this is my point the actual choice to live or die is the choice to obey Dod or not, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and did in fact did "surely die" only the death they were thinking of was not immediate, but came about after denial of access to the tree of life. the death they did not see butwas immediate was the spiritual death by attaining the knowledge of good and evil without the ability to do only good.
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    I am not forgetting anything. You claim that by believing and having the Holy Spirit you have REDEMPTION. That is patentently false, and you continue to try to pull Eph 1:7 and 1:11 and say they are yours now when verse 1:13-14 PROVES that those things are NOT yours yet. Jesus had indeed SECURED those things for the saints, but they were not theirs yet -- only the PLEDGE/EARNEST of the redemption had been given.

    Eph 1:13-14

    *in whom also AFTER that ye believed,

    *ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    *Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession

    Why does this confuse you?

    (1) Even after you believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit you do NOT have the redemption of the purchased posession!

    (2) The Holy Spirit here is called the "spirit OF PROMISE" -- all you have is a promise. That is what a pledge or earnest is.

    (3) A pledge or earnest is NOT the redemption itself according to Paul, but is a PROMISE that it will at some future time be granted.

    Are you trying to intentionally hide the facts of Ephesians chapter one? Ephesians verses 1:7 and 1:11 are CLEARLY explained just three verses later as only being present by PROMISE and EARNEST UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSESSION

    You do not have the redemption yet. You DO, however, have the pledge that such a blessed redemption of you will occur at some future time.
  3. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member


    It is not good to pile speculation upon speculation. Genesis records pertinent details, but is by no means an exhaustive discourse on everything that happened in the Garden of Eden. We know that it was God's habit to walk in the garden and to talk to man, but very little of this discourse is recorded. We could speculate endlessly about the content of those discussions but it is a pointless exercise. Could Adam have chosen NOT to eat of the tree of life? There is no way of knowing, the only thing we do know was that it was God's will that Adam eat since Adam had access to the tree and permission to eat. WHAT IF Adam had chosen not to eat? There is no way of knowing, would he not eat out of a death wish or through ignorance? Would God sit giggling as Adam searched vainly for the tree of life, every day growing older and weaker? Pure speculation and no basis in scripture to rely upon.

    Since Adam lived for hundreds of years WITHOUT access to the tree of life there would certainly have been plenty of time for God to instruct Adam on the proper use of the tree of life, had the fall not ended Adam's access AND provided that Adam NEEDED access to the tree (which is still an unproven point and relies upon speculation and conjecture). The only things which ARE clear is that Adam lost access to the tree of life, which could have guaranteed immortality AFTER the fall, that he lost this access because of SIN, and that Adam suffered a PHYSICAL death.

    Whether physical death was a reality before the fall is again based purely upon speculation and assumes facts not in evidence, and if different facts are assumed then an entirely different scenario develops. We do know that physical death is EXPLAINED by God AFTER Adam sinned and is in context with the other curses that are a direct result of Adam's sin. Should we continue to speculate? Did Adam live hundreds of years longer than the current typical human lifespan because he had ALREADY eaten from the tree of life, or was it because the earlier human bodies were far superior?

    Regardless of how far you want to take this it still comes down to what the bible says, and says very clearly. Adam died a physical death as a direct result of his sin. That is undeniable and inescapable. It is also the ONLY type of death that Genesis mentions. While we can say that Adam died a 'spiritual' death nobody has yet proven that point. I can accept the concept of spiritual death and that it happened the day Adam sinned, but I'd still like to see somebody prove that position from scripture. I showed on another thread how the shedding of blood can be the remission of sins, and that God delayed judgment upon Ninevah because of her repentance, and that God shed blood to cover man's nakedness, a symbol of his sin. So it is very easy for me to see how God delayed Adam's physical death through mercy and shed the blood of animals for the remission of Adam's sin, making the reliance upon some sort of 'spiritual' death unnecessary to avoid the implication that God lied when he told Adam he would die in the day he ate the fruit.
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    1. Adam was made of earthen materials (a "natural body") and therefore was by nature subject to physical decay/death even before his spiritual death happened via his sin (Gen 2:7,19; 1 Cor 15:44-49; 2 Cor 4:18).

    2. The day Adam sinned God removed him from the PRESENCE of God in Eden which was the death spoken of Genesis 2:17.

    3. When Adam sinned God barred him from access to the tree of life so Adam could not eat of it and live forever (bodily?; or morally ruined in terms of good and evil?).

    4. The event of the fall was planned by God who created His creature subject to vanity so that God could give him the hope redemption through the heroic work of Jesus Christ (Rom 7:20-21; Eph 1:4-5).

    5. The Cross event to redeem his Chosen through grace via Christ's own blood was planned out before the creation of the universe (1 Pet 1:19-20; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2-3; Rev 13:8; 1 Cor 2:7)

    6. That many human beings would never be the Elect of God and therefore damned was determined before the world began (Jude 1:4; Rev 17:8; Rom 9:11-13, 18-21)

    7. The salvation of the Chosen from sin unto eternal life and inheritance in heavenly, immortal bodies was determined before the world began (1 Cor 15:44-49; Titus 1:2-3; 1 Pet 1:3-5/Eph 1:11 )

    God has executed his plans exactly as he purposed it before the foundation of the world. The sin of man, the death in the first earthen body, the redemption of the Chosen through Christ's sacrifice and blood, and eternal life in heavenly, spiritual bodies was all planned out before God ever created mankind. God has worked and always works all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:5,11).
  5. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member


    scripture is clear, your are simply incorrect GW :D 2 redemptions are spoken of quite plainly. in future and present tense. redemption from the law was a present reality pre 70ad as the words of Paul attest. Paul was not under law at the time of writing his epistles

    Romans 3:21-24
    But NOW the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it; the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus , whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

    and it is secured THROUGH the Holy spirit! of course i "pull in" Eph 1:7 and 1:11 they go hand in hand with Eph 1:13-14!!! you HAVE to put them together! they were meant to go together you silly boy! ;) look at verses 13-14 again

    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him , were sealed WITH the promised Holy Spirit [/B], which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

    this is in direct agreement with Acts 2:38

    And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit .

    and the forgiveness is...

    Ephesians 1:7
    In him we have redemption THROUGH his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses(aka sins), according to the riches of his graceGalatians 3:13

    which is why Paul also says:

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us --for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" --

    the reason being:

    Romans 3:20
    For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    again GW, i ask you, are you in your immortal glorified body? yes or no .

    if you are not, then are'nt you also waiting on this?

    the simple fact is you are waiting, just like me, just like Paul, in the same way. 60ad or 2060ad it works the same.
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    LOL. When we compare Romans 8:14-25 to Galatians 4:1-11 are these really two different redemptions in view separated by thousands of years? Are these really two different adoptions as sons separated by thousands of years? Are these really 2 separate cryings out Abba Father for 2 different reasons separated by thousands of years??? Are these really2 different bondages which they desired to be in bondage separated by thousands of years? The sane reader would have to reject such total nonsense.

    Instead, being a believer and having the Spirit was only to have an EARNEST of a yet-future redemption (Eph 1:13-14; 4:30).

    Eph 1:13-14

    *in whom also AFTER that ye believed,

    *ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    *Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession

    Why does this confuse you?

    (1) Even after you believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit you do NOT have the redemption of the purchased posession!

    (2) The Holy Spirit here is called the "spirit OF PROMISE" -- all you have is a promise. That is what a pledge or earnest is.

    (3) A pledge or earnest is NOT the redemption itself according to Paul, but is a PROMISE that it will at some future time be granted.

    The Messenger's Error - Exposed
    You ignore that in every case Paul is preaching to people who are STILL IN BONDAGE TO THE LAW! You try to act as if they are not, but they are. You do it in Galatians, but we KNOW they were still in bondage to the Law (Gal 4:1-5:5). You did recently by citing Col 1:14 as if they weren't a people STEEPED IN THE LAW (Col 2:16-21). They were a people who were not yet acting upon New Covenant faith. Paul is urging them to leave that shadow practice behind (Col 2:16-21; Gal 4:1-5:5). Paul was NOT preaching to New Covenant Christians, but rather was speaking to people STEEPED in the Law of Moses for righteousness.

    LOL. No I'm not. Nor does it work the same -- there is no Law of Moses in practice anywhere on the planet, nor has there been since AD 70. Paul was always preaching, not to New Covenant Christians, but to Old Covenant practicing jews who were steeped in the Law and kept returning to it. This is totally different from things after AD70 when the Law was removed. I am a manifested son of God. You are not (Romans 8:19). I am a part of a fully redeemed purchased possession! You are not (Eph 1:13-14). I am not groaning ABBA FATHER to get out of bondage, waiting for adoption. You are (Romans 8:15-19). I have the salvation of Hebrews 9:28 and 1 Peter 1:3-5. You do not.
  7. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member


    reality you deny proves me right, because unless your in your glorified, immortal REDEEMED body NOW, YOU yourself are waiting on this redemption too! LOL!!!

    GW's saddam syndrome exposed :D
    your missing the fact Paul had been ALREADY REDEEMED from the law, this is a seperate redemption he says so in his own words the redemption he waits on is the redemption of the BODY

    Romans 3:23-25
    since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they ARE(not "will be") justified by his grace as a gift, through the REDEMPTION which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood , to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; "

    GW you spent lot of time saying the new covenant was not until 70ad, you also spent alot of time saying Paul and the apostles observed the law...now you say the above quote which is more than a small contradiction of your earlier statements...

    so GW, are you in fact saying your in your immortal glorified body NOW? simple yes or no please.
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

    Wrong. Eternal life was granted to the whole body of the saints at AD 70, both the dead and the living. All were changed positionally into redeemed sons of God. The dead, however, were raised out of Hades in the blink of an eye at AD 70 and into Heaven. The living now never experience biblical death as did the O.T. saints up to AD 70.

    Ugh. Romans 8:14-25 is parallel with Gal 4:1-11. No one was redeemed from the Law who was keeping it for righteousness sake. Paul's audiences were mostly jewish followers of Jesus who still believed righteousness came via the Mosaic system.

    Romans 3:30, 5:19, 8:19-25, 11:26; 13:11-12; 15:16 are all the future tense. They had not been saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9-10), which is why you don't yet go to heaven in your system and still have it abiding upon you. Paul's Messianic Jewish audiences were either IN the Mosaic system for righteousness when he was preaching to them or they were going BACK to the Mosaic system for righteousness when he was preaching to them.

    No. The issue for the 1st century jew was whether one considered salvation to come VIA the Mosaic Law system or not. Most of Paul's audiences believed they were saved by Moses and his system! That was a life and soul-damning error which brought millions to perish at AD 66-70 and for eternity. Properly understood, the Mosaic practices could be done so long as one was doing them as Jesus understood them (or as David understood the Law System -- Rom 4:4-8). But the minute a jew thought salvation came VIA adherence to the Laws they were not in grace nor faith -- for the Law practice was not of faith (Rom 4:14; Gal 3:12;) and could not bring justification (Rom 3:28; Gal 2:15-16). Paul and James and Peter and the jewish early Church followed the Law as Jesus taught them up until AD 66 when the jews fled Jerusalem. Jesus did not keep the Mosaic Law for righteousness and neither did Paul, Peter, or James (although Peter and James were unclear on some of the specifics of that practice, themselves being still entangled for at least a decade or two after the resurrection -- Gal 2:11-14).

    The entire BODY was redeemed at AD 70. That "BODY" (singluar) that was redeemed was the purchased posession, the Church (Eph 1:13-14; Acts 20:28).

    While eternal life was fully granted to the enitire Church at AD 70 (no more pledge or earnest), the dead were raised out of Hades and into Heaven. The living were NOT "raised" for they were not dead. They were not to precede the dead (1 Thess 4:15-17). The change for the living was the change from the POSITION the saints had in the O.T. to the POSITION the saints have in the N.T. system:

    O.T. SYSTEM - not redeemed. not saved. not sons of God. kept apart from God's Presence. entangled in the law curses. no eternal life. afterlife in Hades. no access to Heaven


    N.T. SYSTEM -- the saints are fully redeemed (no earnest, no groaning). the saints are saved. saints are the sons of God. saints are always in God's Presence. no law curse. full eternal life. no Hadean afterlife for the saints. full access to Heaven. Gen 12:1-3 is fulfilled in the Church etc. etc.

    You see, for you, Christ has done nothing for a single dead saint going back to Adam. Whether one was Adam or whether one was King David or whether one was Paul or whether one is The Messenger, the afterlife is the same -- NO HEAVENLY BLISS WITH GOD. You even believe that your individual sentience and consciousness is absent at physical death in some way that you believe Abraham's was was thousands of years ago. Therefore Christ has done not a single thing for the dead. People only live on earth for a few years. They spend massive amounts of time in the afterlife (thousands of years). So Christ has done nothing for the departed ones in your system -- nothing for Moses, Elisha, David, Mary, Joseph, Augustine, etc. Hades still reigns (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

    How hopeless and ineffectual was Christ's 1st Advent for all departed saints (in your system). How little comfort to know our loved ones have not gone on to a better existence by their departure -- in fact, they are not sentient nor conscious of anyone or thing.

    The preterist system, by sharp contrast, is one of total victory for the living and the dead.
  9. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member


    LOL!! i so love your semantics games GW!! dead is dead ,when you body dies it is...dead, until the resurrection. this is why i keep asking you if you have come into your immortal glorified body yet. you keep dodging it with evasive answers that seem to indicate you think you have...but stop short. well have you? YES OR NO.

    as far as when eternal life was grantedthis occurs during mortal life, when the choice is made to believe in Christ:

    John 5:24
    Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

    so GW what system were the ones like Paul and the rest of the believers in that were not under law? in one set of arguments you say "paul was under law until ad70" in another you say they were not, please make up your mind...i agree no one that went back to the OT system were justified, but the ones that stayed in the NT system were :D

    let's look at some present/past tense ones! :D

    Romans 3:24
    they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

    Ephesians 1:7
    In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

    Colossians 1:13-15
    He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption , the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation

    Hebrews 9:15
    Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

    GW, thx for those extra veres showing the present reality of one redemption and the future redemption of another...:D
    it is also demonstrative of the fact the redemption from sin is required to get the Holy Spirit, which gets us the physical redemption from death! :)

    the "or not" was the New Covenant system already in place pre 70ad. correct? otherwise there was still only one system and no other system for them to go to in the first place...

    you mean given immortal glorified bodies? who passed the faith on then? or are you referring the redemption from sin, which was pre 70ad?

    actually since my existance will be spiritual since my body is dead but not my spirit, my existance will be with Christ i will still be in Him, and he in me just as now...just as before i was born. it is the same for OT persons, even people that died in the flood, those that accepted the gospel were no longer in sheol, but in Christ.

    1 Peter 3:18-20
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

    i remain alive in the spirit, in Christ who is in me until the resurrection i am manifested to Him and He to me by and through the spirit.

    Romans 8:9-11
    But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit , if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you , although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your MORTAL BODIES ALSO through his Spirit which dwells in you.

    i know you try you best to edit this out GW, but here is where you blunder:

    Christ's mortal body died(hence the term "mortal" it was raised and glorified his spirit did not die hence the term "ALSO" in regards to Christ being raised from the dead...hence the term "mortal bodies" in regards His and our Resurrections being compared. your weak arguments have never refuted this, ot only tried to hide from it.

    i just covered this, only those dead that did not accept the gospel whne Christ preached it to them the 3 days he was dead are waiting the resuurection of judgment.

    actually it is one of total nonsense and contradiction, it seems a bit schichzophrenic in it's muddled attempt to edit most of the bible in that meanings of many scriptures seem to change from debate to debate. and definitions of words are purposfully distorted.
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    The Dead are not gone, they are in Hades until resurrection.

    All saints received eternal life at AD 70. For the dead they were raised out of Hades. The living were not to precede the dead, but must follow after. Those living on earth after AD 70 never taste of Hades and death. They are never bodiless, but will instantly receive their heavenly body at passing from earth (2 Cor 5:1-2).

    LOL. If you had eternal life you'd go to heaven after passing from earth.

    The fact that those 1st century believers could go back to the Law of Moses proves the preterist view. No one after AD 70 can go back to the Law of Moses -- there is no system of the Law of Moses anywhere on the planet since AD 70..

    Romans 3:24 is to people still practicing a Law System.

    Eph 1:7 is interpreted by Eph 1:13-14.

    Col 1:13-15 is also preached to a people steeped in the Law of Moses for righteousness (Col 2:16-22).

    Heb 9:28 states their salvation had not come, for Christ was still purifying the Heavenly temple with his blood for the saints and had not yet returned back out of the true Holy of Holies (Heb 9:23-28). Peter also says that their salvation was yet future (1 Peter 1:3-5).

    The dead are in Hades. They sleep there in Christ (just like you and I are in Christ) and await Hades/Sheol to be destroyed just like in Rev 20:12-15 and 1 Cor 15:55-56.

    To apply such a view fails to grasp Paul's argument that we still have living bodies. They are dead "positionally, in God's eyes" but we live in them for between 70-80 years upon this earth. AND, Paul teaches that they have a sin-disposition in them that must be "mortified" by one's INNER MAN and the Holy Spirit's quickening work.

    Now if you insist that your earthly body is dead, then are you currently a disembodied being? AND, how are you then MORTIFYING THE DEEDS OF YOUR FUTURE FLESH RESURRECTION BODY as commanded in Romans 8:12-13? For Romans 8:12-13 in my view is the same body of Romans 8:10. Do you agree? If not, then you are forced into the absurdity that Romans 8:12-13 is a command for us to mortify the evil deeds of our FUTURE resurrection flesh.
  11. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    actually GW, the OT saints that heard the gospel in sheol and believed were part (in fact most of) THE DEAD "in Christ"

    1 Peter 4:6
    For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

    the samaratins to this day practice the mosaic system of sacrifice. i saw a picture of sacrifices bieng made. also as i pointed out earlier the law is still in existance, it is there for anyone who is not under Grace, it determines judgement.

    spiritually i am connected to heaven now, i am IN Christ, He is IN me this does not change when i die.

    GW, you miss the point that there was already in place an alternate system for them to be in, that brought them outside of the mosaic system(redeemd from law) which in fact was the new covenant established by christ on the cross by and through His blood, and this renders the rest of your points on this subject moot :D your also forgetting that the dead that accepted Christ when he preached in sheol were also "made alive in the spirit"...they too were "in Christ" and not in sheol. and Hebrews has the New Covenant being in place already, i posted the scripture, scroll up.

    actually it does a better job of explaining why we are still in living bodies after being redeemed from law! that is why most of my arguments take scripture as what it simply says, and you spend paragraph after paragraph of "interpretation" in a vain attepmt to change their obvious meaning.

    a prime example is my assertion that "redemption" which Paul defines as "forgiveness of sins" was available pre70 ad because the cross made this a reality, it was in fact the very purpose for it.

    my earthly body is doomed to die, it is a mortal body like yours, and Paul's, and Adam's that will be redeemed ala Romans 8:10-11,23. Christ's mortal body was raised and made immortal, Romans 8:11 says "mortal body" will be "ALSO" i am putting a stop to my flesh's desire to sin by being led by the spirit instead of the flesh. this is made possible by my spirit's redemption from sin that i gain by Grace through faith, which grants me the Holy Spirit and saves me for bodily redemption when i die...just like the bible simply says.

    the Salvation process is the exact opposite of the cursing process, Adam & Eve sinned, this sin got them banished which brought about mortal death by denial of access to the tree of life. Grace came on the cross and removed the penalty of sin, which after mortal death and resurrection grants access to the tree of life again.

    Revelation 2:7
    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God . '
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hades/Sheol is not done away with until Revelation 20. Also, 1 Cor 15:55-56 also shows that Hades is what is triumphed over for the saints at the time of resurrection of the dead. The saints are still bound by Hades.

    LOL. The Samaritans don't keep the Law of Moses. Hehehehe. Good one. Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses required a Temple and legitimate Levitical priests just in order to observe the Law.

    LOL. Jesus didn't preach in sheol for 3 days. Also, what do you propose those saints looked like? Did they have ears? Did they ask Jesus questions? Did they look for miracles? How many in Sheol/Hades rejected Christ? Why? No, friend, Hades isn't taken away from the saints until 1 Cor 15:55-56 just as Paul wrote.

    Are you mortifying the flesh of your future resurrection body according to Romans 8:10-13?
  13. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member


    are you talking about the orginal concept of sheol, or the hellenized concept?

    well friend, if you think about it no one does/did, but they tried and still try...also you apparantly have no clue as to when and why synagogue worship started, here is a hint, it is mentioned plenty in the bible...

    1 Peter 4:6
    For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

    1 Peter 3:18-20
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey , when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

    nuff said..

    hehe your still trying to mangle that scripture and still doing a terrible job of it. :D

    BTW, are you going to give the simple yes or no answer to the question "GW are you in your immortal glorified body yet?" yes or no is all im asking for.
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

    I'm talking about the Revelation 20 and 1 Cor 15:55-56 concept.

    You do not understand what the Law of Moses is. It is a code, a tabernacle, and a priesthood to carry out detailed, specific acts for all covenanted sons of Abraham that must be followed to a tee. None of those things exist today and the Law is NOT being observed and hasn't been since AD 70. Rabbis call AD 70 the "end of biblical judaism" for a reason. Any suggestion of yours that people still follow the Law of Moses today is spoken out of ignorance.

    Next, Jesus did not preach to people in hades after the crucifixion.

    Next, the discussion we have had on Romans 8 has only shown to me how dishonest you are being with Holy scripture. Saying that Romans 8:14-25 is a different thing from Gal 4:1-11 simply cannot be and would not be maintained by any sane expositor. They are the same thing spoken of in identical terms. You sneak thousands of years into the mix (Paul does not) and then say they speak of different redemptions (Paul does not). There is just no way to continue any conversation with you -- there is no biblical justification for your treatment of Gal 4:1-11 and 8:14-25 being different in referent and separated by thousands of years. It's just not there. And, this is a typical discussion with you. Your futurism forces you to create two of everthing separated by thousands of years and pointing to different referents. You'll do anything other than let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

    Finally, I have eternal life. You are still waiting for it (Titus 1:2). Of course you will say you are not because there will claim to have eternal life and then get a second eternal life that you will have granted at the Parousia. You always take a single concept and make two out of it and assign it to separate things, one for you now and one for you thousands of years away.

    This conversation is about to end soon (and I don't mean "soon" as you mean soon -- i.e., thousands of years). I mean it the way the N.T. writers mean it when they used it.

    Jesus Christ is here. He is not coming back in your lifetime as you have vainly imagined. He came back in his generation as he also promised the apostles and as they all taught. You will live to be an old man an die a normal death. We are not in the last days. We are living BEYOND THE ENDTIMES.

  15. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    that does not answer the question.

    i have just shown you scripture that says in plain words he did just that...here it is again :)

    1 Peter 4:6
    For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead , that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

    1 Peter 3:18-20
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey , when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

    let us review...

    GW says:"Jesus did not preach to people in hades after the crucifixion"

    the bible says: "he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey"

    also the Law is still around for the purpose of judgment, if a person is not under grace, they are liable to judgment under the Law.

    GW most scripture means what it simply says, taking one part of scripture similar to another except a detail or two and then saying the are the "same" is a poor excuse to tear verses out of the bible. if it helps you to understand think of them as 2 halves of a single redemption, but they way they work are just as i say, for that is what the bible plainly says. you cannot get around the tense issue.

    the salvation process is the exact undoing of the cursing process in Genesis, you disdain for Christ taking "2000" years as taking too long, but you seem to forget it took immeasurably LONGER than 2000 years to have the curse of sin removed that has been around since the time of Adam.

    i have eternal life, but i am not in my immotal glorified state yet, i am sure you are not either. do an experiment GW, if you can jump off the sears tower crunch on the ground with the full force gravity has to bear, immediatly get up unhurt and say to me "see i told ya" then i will become a preterist! :D until thing i will thing of you as i do myself, a person with spiritual redemption, waiting on the physical redemption...just like the bible says.

  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    Your question is not biblical to begin with.

    Hades is still in power over the saints if one is a futurist:

    And thus is brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. "Where of thee O Death is the sting? Where of thee O HADES is the victory? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is THE LAW" -- 1 Cor 15:55-56

    That doesn't say Jesus preached in Hades. Peter is just saying what Paul also had said:

    1 Cor 10:1-2,3,9
    all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents

    Peter is pointing out that Christ was there preaching with Noah's family to the disobedient while the Ark was being prepared and only 8 were saved by water -- Peter compares that to the salvation through water baptism. Paul taught that this was true also with Moses (1 Cor 10; Heb 11:26) and also with Father Abraham (Gal 3:8). Compare:

    1 Peter 4:6
    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

    Galatians 3:8
    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    You do not seem to have a grasp on the Old Covenant and how it worked. The Old Covenant Laws ALL had to be obeyed note for note by God's people. The curses and blessings of the Law are entirely dependent on the obedience of its subjects to the code. The judgments of the Law are what happened to Israel when the Babylonians destroyed them (read Lamentations). The judgments of the Law are what happened when the Romans destroyed them. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 are the judgments of the Law. The Law of Moses is neither in observance nor in active duty anywhere on the planet nor has it been since AD 70. We know from Exodus 34:22-24 that the Law is not in active duty -- Israel was attacked during its Yom Kippur just this year as it was also in 1967. So also was Israel attacked during Pentecost in AD 70. While the Law USED to be kept by Jehovah towards the Jews, it no longer serves actively since it has been removed to make way for the second Covenant (Heb 10:9).
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

    They are EXACTLY the same. THEY ARE PARALLEL PASSAGES and speak of the one and the same exact "bondage" (cf. Gal 4:3,7,10 to Rom 8:15,21) and the same exact "adoption and redemption" (cf. Gal 4:5 to Rom 8:23 and Gal) unto the same exact standing as "sons/children of God" (cf. Gal 4:5-7 to Rom 8:14,16-17,9,21) by crying out the exact same words "ABBA, FATHER!" by the same "groaning Spirit" (cf. Gal 4:6 to Rom 8:15, 22, 26). How in the world did you come up with two different fulfillments of this separated by thousands of years??? They are the same exact thing. No serious expositor of the scriptures can take our twisting seriously on this one.

    The so-called "tense issue" is in your head, brother. It is a unicorn you have created in your head to prop up your false futurist theory. We recognize that Paul's preaching was CONDITIONAL upon their coming out from under Torah observance for righteousness and Christ being in them -- this had not happened to the Galatians yet. When Paul says "God sent forth his Son made of a woman to redeem them that were under the Law that we MIGHT receive the adoption..." we cannot ignore the conditional "MIGHT," and we also cannot ignore that they were still fully entangled in the Law and therefore not yet redeemed from it as Paul also explicitly says (Gal 3:3, 4:9-11, 5:1; Col 2:16-21). You keep wanting to say that Paul was declaring that the Galatians had the redemption and adoption. That is 100% wrong. The churches Paul preached to were followers of Jesus who still had not received the adoption so long as they remained in the grips of the Law of Moses which was then still a living, active covenant (Gal 4:24-25) that could be observed and in fact was observed for righteousness, keeping them cursed, without grace and bewitched (Gal 3:1; 5:4; Gal 2:4). You say the Galatians already WERE redeemed: Paul says they were most certainly NOT:

    Galatians 4:19
    My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

    They did not have the redemption yet. Christ had NOT been formed in them yet. You do NOT have a fulfilled redemption in Gal 4:1-5:5 as you are trying to say! This is the explanation of your so-called "tenses" argument.

    Only ONE Bondage in Romans 8 and Galatians -- The Law of Moses

    Falsely, you make the "bondage" spoken about in Romans 8:15, 21 something DIFFERENT than what it means in Galatians 2:4, 4:9, 4:24, and 5:1. This is fully untenable! It is futurist twisting at its worst. Wake up, brother and admit you got it wrong. Compare the following to see they ALL speak of the same bondage to the Law of Moses:

    Gal 4:9
    now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again TO BE IN BONDAGE?

    Gal 5:1
    Stand fast therefore in the liberty...and be not entangled again with the yoke OF BONDAGE.

    Romans 8:15,17
    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear...IF (conditional) so be that we suffer with him

    Gal 4:24-25
    these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children.

    Romans 8:21
    Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty (Gal 2:4, 5:1, 5:13

    2 Peter 2:19-20
    While they [Judaizers] promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world...they are again entangled in it and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    Christ had not yet been formed in them (Gal 4:19) and this settles the so-called "tense issue." You say the Galatians had been redeemed. Paul says they had NOT. They were in bondage and were not redeemed out from under the Law. It was YET FUTURE for them.

    If you had eternal life then you would be in Heaven immediately at your passing as I will be. Since you are not then you do not yet have eternal life.

    Jesus can be a Spirit in your system in an handful of some tongues-speaking jews at AD 30 but he cannot return in the glory of Yahweh (John 17:5;Matt 16:27) at AD 70 when the entire Old Covenant economy and tribes went up in smoke? Come on. Read Matt 21:40-45 to see that God came at AD 70.

    LOL. The entire Western Hemisphere of the globe and Europe lacks any persecution of the Christian faith. AND, the Church is expanding in Asia at this time and reports are good that China may even bow to the gospel of the Kingdom in the next century or two.

    FINALLY: ROMANS 8:21-23

    Romans 8:21-23
    because the creation itself shall also be delivered from the BONDAGE (Rom 8:15, Gal 2:4, 4:9, 5:1; 2 Pet 2:9)

    of CORRUPTION (2 Peter 2:9; 2 Pet 1:4)

    into the glorious LIBERTY (Gal 2:4, 5:1, 5:13; 1Cor 8:9;

    of the CHILDREN OF GOD (Rom 8:14; Gal 3:26, 4:6; Rom 9:8).

    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our BODY (Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30; Luke 21:26).
  18. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    real weak GW,


    are you in your immortal glorified body or not? this seems a real simple question to answer.

    yes or no please. you either are, or you are not.
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    My last post was the death knell to your view on Romans 8. It was a pleasure to take the time and compare the Galatians and Romans 8 passages side by side to show how vacuous this silly notion is that they speak of two different things with two different referents separated by thousands of years.

    Quite simply, the notion that Galatians and Romans 8 speak of two different "redemptions," two different "bondages," two different "manifestations of the sons of God", two different "groanings of the Holy Spirit"/outcires of "Abba Father" for two different purposes and outcomes IS ROLL ON THE FLOOR LAUGH OUT LOUD FUNNY.

    Eat humble pie, brother. The longer you continue in this error the more painful the side-by-side comparison of Romans 8:14-25 and Galatians is going to get for you.

    God bless,
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    P.S., The Messenger,

    I am the living, not the dead.

    Furthermore, I have eternal life. I have "the change." Only physically dead persons are raised at the last trump. The living cannot and did not precede them.
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