The Trap of Conservative Politics

[Jake Arsenal]

Conservatism is very popular in U.S. Christian circles, but can anyone name even one social or political issue in which conservatives in the modern(post WW2) era experienced a long term victory?

The people intent on cultural change set the groundwork for it culturally through education and entertainment until whatever change they want is achieved socially. Then they take their cause to the political arena. That's why political conservatism is a trap.

 

[LeGato]

Conservatism is very popular in U.S. Christian circles, but can anyone name even one social or political issue in which conservatives in the modern(post WW2) era experienced a long term victory?

The people intent on cultural change set the groundwork for it culturally through education and entertainment until whatever change they want is achieved socially. Then they take their cause to the political arena. That's why political conservatism is a trap.

So is Liberalism.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

So is Liberalism.

Agreed.
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.(John 12:25)

 

[The Barbarian]

It is the nature of conservatism to hang on to things that are already here. It is the nature of liberalism to implement new things.

Hence conservatism won't be making any great social or political changes. So it may look as though conservatism always loses, but it's not so.

For example, the failure of the Jan 6 insurrection was mostly because of conservative military officers who took steps to prevent a coup.

The destruction of Joe McCarthy was because he tried to go beyond the Constitution.

We think only of liberal successes like civil rights, equality under the law, medicare, Obamacare, and so on. But just as important as moving forward to make America better, is the conservative notion that the Constitution is an absolutely essential safeguard of our freedoms.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

It is the nature of conservatism to hang on to things that are already here. It is the nature of liberalism to implement new things.

Hence conservatism won't be making any great social or political changes. So it may look as though conservatism always loses, but it's not so.

For example, the failure of the Jan 6 insurrection was mostly because of conservative military officers who took steps to prevent a coup.

The destruction of Joe McCarthy was because he tried to go beyond the Constitution.

We think only of liberal successes like civil rights, equality under the law, medicare, Obamacare, and so on. But just as important as moving forward to make America better, is the conservative notion that the Constitution is an absolutely essential safeguard of our freedoms.

I am arguing that the nature of conservatism is to hang on to things which are already lost.

Back to my original question: can you name a single issue taken up by liberalism which has been successfully put down by conservatism?

 

[The Barbarian]

I am arguing that the nature of conservatism is to hang on to things which are already lost.

Some of them do tend to want to hang onto things that are already a lost cause.

Back to my original question: can you name a single issue taken up by liberalism which has been successfully put down by conservatism?

Equal rights amendment.
Outlawing Gerrymandering and voter suppression schemes
Overturning qualified immunity for police
Banning civil forfeiture schemes

 

[Jake Arsenal]

Equal rights amendment.

Ratification By State — Equal Rights Amendment
On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to remove the time limit with a vote of 222-204 on HJ Res 17.

Outlawing Gerrymandering and voter suppression schemes

Ari Berman: With Extreme Gerrymandering, the Republicans Are Rigging the Next Decade of Elections | Democracy Now!
It sure looks like they see it as a conservative threat.

Overturning qualified immunity for police

I believe we've debated this one before and agreed to disagree.(I argue this is not a conservative verses liberal issue rather an "establishment" verses "the people" issue.)

Banning civil forfeiture schemes

FBI aims to keep valuables, $86M cash found in safe deposit store raid
Looks like they still do it anyway.

 

[The Barbarian]

Ratification By State — Equal Rights Amendment
On Wednesday, March 17, 2021, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to remove the time limit with a vote of 222-204 on HJ Res 17.

Yes, but it didn't work. The ERA is dead. Conservatives won.

I believe we've debated this one before and agreed to disagree.

Conservatives back it. Libertarians and liberals do not.

Attempts to end Gerrymandering and voter suppression schemes have mostly failed. Conservatives win again.

Looks like they still do it anyway.

Yes, the "support your police" conservatives like civil forfeiture. But there's some good news. The police recently lost a couple of lawsuits, one of which hit them with a substantial penalty for stealing a man's cash with no evidence whatever that it was associated with crime.

Still, the "policing for profit" scheme is still being widely used.

 

[The Barbarian]

I am arguing that the nature of conservatism is to hang on to things which are already lost.

Jan 6, the Constitution won. The insurrectionists lost.

Back to my original question: can you name a single issue taken up by liberalism which has been successfully put down by conservatism?

Equal Rights Amendment; it's dead. Conservatives killed it.

Outlawing Gerrymanding and voter suppression. Still legal in most places.

Civil asset forfeiture and qualified immunity for police who abuse citizens.

 

[RoBo1988]

The people intent on cultural change set the groundwork for it culturally through education and entertainment until whatever change they want is achieved socially. Then they take their cause to the political arena.

"If a man were permitted to make all the ballads he need not care who should make the laws of a nation" -Andrew Fletcher
This is what the liberal side of politics understands very well; incorporating their agenda into the arts, and education; it makes people sympathetic to the cause, whatever it is. I dare to say, that the majority of those graduating high school, the last 30-40 years do not know how the country is supposed to operate, but they do understand television, movies, social media, smart phones, etc. And, they "know" that "liberals are caring, compassionate", "Christians, religious people only care about money, and are hypocrites", and "rich people will pay for everything that I (we) want" because that's the message pounded into them 24-7. As Jesus says: "They are like sheep, without a shepherd".

Conservatism, will never be flashy. Think of being the only one in your household that wants to budget, save money, while your spouse would spend, spend, spend. Which one would your young children gravitate to?

 

[The Barbarian]

Conservatism, will never be flashy. Think of being the only one in your household that wants to budget, save money, while your spouse would spend, spend, spend.

Donald Trump makes a lousy spouse, doesn't he?
Spending Has Increased $800 Billion Under President Trump
Spending Has Increased $800 Billion Under President Trump

U.S. tax revenue as a proportion of GDP drops the most of any country in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in 2018, according to a new report.

Thanks to Trump’s tax cuts, the U.S. tax-to-GDP ratio falls 2.5% from 2017 to 2018, the OECD finds.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/05/us-tax-revenue-dropped-sharply-due-to-trump-tax-cuts-report.html

Which one would your young children gravitate to?

I taught my kids from a very early age that if you cut income, you have to cut spending. So they've done pretty well as adults.

Better than Trump. But of course they are adults. And Trump never grew up.

(Edit: I've been told by some people that Trump isn't a conservative. Maybe so.)

 

[RoBo1988]

Donald Trump makes a lousy spouse, doesn't he?

You have such an intimate knowledge of our former President. That will save us time at the grocery store checkout.

I taught my kids from a very early age that if you cut income, you have to cut spending. So they've done pretty well as adults.

So glad your children are doing well. They'll need that extra money living under the current President.
No, President Trump is not a conservative.

 

[grasping the after wind]

It is the nature of conservatism to hang on to things that are already here. It is the nature of liberalism to implement new things.

I am afraid I can't agree at all with this simplistic definition of these ideologies. Most modern conservatives are eager to change many of things that are already there and most modern liberals are very much against implementing new things in a number of areas. Your definitions may have been sufficient to identify the ideology of past humans that considered themselves in those terms but using anachronistic definitions won't help identify present thought patterns. Being for or against change in general is not really what separates the philosophies represented by hose two terms.

 

[The Barbarian]

You have such an intimate knowledge of our former President.

When he blathers it all on an open microphone, it's not really hard to tell, is it?

So glad your children are doing well.

Thanks. But of course they had advantages growing up that Trump lacked.

They'll need that extra money living under the current President.

See above. You're assuming that it won't be any different with Biden. Not a safe assumption, I think.

One daughter chose a dream over money; she coaches.
But her economic outlook seems to be improving, too.

No, President Trump is not a conservative.

He seems to have no ideology but "what's in it for me?" Which is why he decided to be a republican.

 

[The Barbarian]

I am afraid I can't agree at all with this simplistic definition of these ideologies.

That's what "conservative" means. "Liberal" tends to favor innovation over stability. But in a time when people of different races, sexes, and religions have achieved a much greater equality than in the past, it does make many conservatives wish to turn back the clock.

Such people are normally called "reactionaries" rather than "conservatives."

 

[RoBo1988]

Back to the O.P. : Politics in general, is a trap for the Christian; the left and the right both use red meat to get you excited to vote for them- (anti)abortion, patriotism, attacks on religious freedom on the right; And (pro) abortion, rights for certain segments of society(already covered in the Constitution), and "free" stuff on the left. They convince you of the evilness, or the the stupidity, of those who oppose you, when The Word says "(So) from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view (2 Cor 5:16)
Neither of which intends to deliver on promises- They only want your vote. They both are big spenders, it just their version of big spending they like.

I always know when each party is out of gas; Republicans start talking about an amendment to ban flag burning. And, Democrats either want to raise the minimum wage, or make Puerto Rico a state.

Voting, IMO is like Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
I vote every election, but I also remember, that Joshua, and Caleb were out voted, too. (Numbers 14:4)
Careful who leads you back to Egypt...

 

[RDKirk]

I am afraid I can't agree at all with this simplistic definition of these ideologies. Most modern conservatives are eager to change many of things that are already there and most modern liberals are very much against implementing new things in a number of areas. Your definitions may have been sufficient to identify the ideology of past humans that considered themselves in those terms but using anachronistic definitions won't help identify present thought patterns. Being for or against change in general is not really what separates the philosophies represented by hose two terms.

If "conservative" no longer means resistant to change, and if liberal no longer means being positive to change, then we ought to start using different words.

 

[The Barbarian]

If "conservative" no longer means resistant to change, and if liberal no longer means being positive to change, then we ought to start using different words.

Today's winner.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You have such an intimate knowledge of our former President.

I first became aware of Donald Trump while reading tabloids in the waiting room of a doctor's office. He was parading around NYC with his new girlfriend, Marla Maples, while still married to his wife, Ivanka. Later, after he cheated on Marla with Melania, he cheated on Melania with Stormy.

 

[grasping the after wind]

If "conservative" no longer means resistant to change, and if liberal no longer means being positive to change, then we ought to start using different words.

When did conservative ever merely mean resistant to change and liberal mean just being in favor of change? The terms have never been that simply defined. I would suggest that calling something liberal is incorrect when one is actually referring to some radical change and that calling something conservative is incorrect when referring to some radical resistance to any change whatsoever. Being conservative politically can mean favoring conserving the traditions and laws that have served the country well in the past. Being liberal politically can mean the exact same thing or mean that one is for continuing to improve the laws and traditions of the country without junking the entire system. However, either can mean something entirely different depending upon the agenda of the person using the words. Additionally, they both have meanings that have nothing to do with politics. I would prefer to use words that are more precise when describing the ideological philosophies of the present time. Therefore, I agree that, for political discourse, The terms are not very good at describing the ideology of the people that they have been applied to.